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GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One)

 
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GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/1/2015 12:16:46 AM   
cpdeyoung


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This game, one of two experimental games trying a new build of GD1938, is so interesting that I am starting this
AAR. The players are GB/FR : Ernie, USA/CH : Bombur, USSR : cpdeyoung, GR/IT : Rufus and JP : Larry.

The Soviets have just completed their Turn 7. To catch up, there is war in East and West. In the east Japan is
continuing their war with China. In the West the war is between the Soviets and the British. The British were so
unhappy with the Soviet attempted occupation of the Baltic States that they indicated a serious state of war would
exist between their Empire and the USSR. Stalin looked to the other totalitarian states and this angered the British
even more. In retaliation the British fomented a coup in Romania and gained control there. They then proceeded to
attack towards Odessa. The Soviets responded, and have alliances with Germany, Italy and Japan.
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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/1/2015 12:22:27 AM   
cpdeyoung


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The situation near Romania. One of the features of this new build of GD1938 is much larger, more historical, OOBs
for the minor nations. We have never seen Romanian forces in this strength.

The Red Fleet sank six Romanian destroyers this month.






Attachment (1)

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/10/2015 2:54:59 AM   
cpdeyoung


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The French achieve a coup in Finland and the Finns attack and take Leningrad. The Politburo is shocked at the duplicity of the Finns, who have long maintained good relations with our strong nation. Both Finland and Rumania have much stronger armies than they might have had.

In Rumania we nearly destroy four divisions and want to assure the British that they have done the Rumanians no favors by goading them into this attack on the Soviet Union. The Finns will soon rue the day they allowed the French to steer them into their conflict.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/13/2015 11:04:19 PM   
Bombur

 

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Game stalled btw, the French has the turn....

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/14/2015 6:30:15 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Sorry, I have had a few busy days. Should be done today, no later than tomorrow.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/16/2015 4:16:55 AM   
Bombur

 

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Just a small comment. I think that playing without the ability to share units was a bad choice, since it makes the game much less realistic by preventing countries from ending supply and weapons to their allies. France, for instance, is doomed from start since its sources of supply are very vulnerable. Historically, sending weapons and supplies to allies was very common. In the two experimental games we are playing it simply cannot happen. The British are forced to see the French Army collasping due to lack of supply even if they are swimning in supply (not always it happens). Makes no sense....

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/16/2015 11:34:59 AM   
cpdeyoung


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If unit sharing is turned off can you still not ship supplies?

I did not realize this.

It does seem unit sharing turned on makes for a better game.

Chuck

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/16/2015 11:57:45 AM   
Bombur

 

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I didnīt realize it too....until now....France and Itaky will have troubles in our games (I mean, even more troubles)...ernie is suggesting a workaround,by I donīt know if it will work....

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/16/2015 5:11:24 PM   
RufusTFirefly

 

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So do you want a restart?

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 1:15:56 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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I donīt, but Bombur might. Personally I think there is a way to transfer supplies between allies, without unit sharing being turned on. I might be wrong, though, as I have yet to test it.

EDIT: After some testing I found that my method (unfortunately) does not work. I will try and make a fix that allows for transfers of Supplies and units. This method will probably be an action card, that allows for transfers between allied nations, BUT the card itself will cost some PPs.

Any suggestions for how many PPs?

EDIT2: As a side note, my co-creator and I are not in agreement on this card. Bombur wants to do away with the no-unit-sharing option completely. So you, the players get a say...

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 6/17/2015 2:32:27 PM >

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 6:26:37 PM   
Bombur

 

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No need to restart this one, however, exp game 2 should probably be restarted, since each country is ruled by one player.
I see nothing wrong with unit sharing, since itīs very realistic and also associated with a significat penalty. Ernie says some
countries are helping their allies in a war agaist a third country, while tey are neutral owards this country. I see no trouble
with this. The USA was already helping GB before they entered the war. And a cplayer can always DOW a neutral country
if this country is helping an enemy. Iīm not against the card itself, but I find it redundant, since itīs created to undo a
choice made by the players. Do why to make this choice in 1st place?????

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 6:32:57 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Hmmm, yes, why indeed...

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 7:56:47 PM   
cpdeyoung


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I was unhappy with sharing for a bit, but now I see doing without it is even worse.

As we teach our children : "you must learn to share."

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 9:15:51 PM   
Twotribes


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You should make a system that allows the transfer of equipment and not nationality. The US never sent troops to fight for France and Britain but they did provide them and the Soviets with lots of equipment.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/17/2015 11:17:31 PM   
cpdeyoung


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The Soviet Union is fighting vigorously on the Rumanian front, but does not have the resources to deal with the Finns just yet. German and Soviets naval units are bombarding the Finnish troops.

The USSR has declared war on China and are advancing against the Sinkiang Army at Urumqi. The attack is intended to put extra pressure on the Chinese in their battle against the Japanese, our steadfast allies.

Stalin

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/18/2015 12:45:23 AM   
baloo7777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur


quote:

No need to restart this one, however, exp game 2 should probably be restarted, since each country is ruled by one player.


Read this with some interest as I am the US in exp game 2. Did not see this proposed in the exp game 2 thread though, and wondered if it was being contemplated?

_____________________________

JRR

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/22/2015 4:02:08 PM   
cpdeyoung


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This game is coup-coup! (Say it aloud.)

Actually it is coup-coup-coup, as Romania, Finland and Poland have all entered by coup. This seems problematic to those of us opposing the British and French fighting these minors.

The Soviet Union has killed many of the forces of Romania, some Poles, and a few Finns, but the new OOBs for minors leave plenty more. Not sure GD1938 will want to go this way, but that is why this is an experiment.

Stalin

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/22/2015 5:24:32 PM   
RufusTFirefly

 

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This high number of successful coups changed gameplay a lot. Gues minors come in too quick this way.

The increase strength of the minors might be no problem. They will be harded to defeat. But most of the games ended too early, imho. So having longer wars aginst minors might make us see some late war periode that we had not often seen. There are a lot of late war techs that I could not develop as games ended too early.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/22/2015 6:49:38 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

This game is coup-coup! (Say it aloud.)

Actually it is coup-coup-coup, as Romania, Finland and Poland have all entered by coup. This seems problematic to those of us opposing the British and French fighting these minors.

The Soviet Union has killed many of the forces of Romania, some Poles, and a few Finns, but the new OOBs for minors leave plenty more. Not sure GD1938 will want to go this way, but that is why this is an experiment.

Stalin


Actually, it is not too far fetched that these nations would have gone to war with The Soviet Union in case one of their number got attacked. By attacking the Baltic nations, you basically set a chain of events in motion. I like the diplomatic side of the game, and I think that the coup mechanism has not been too widely used. When you have both France and Britain, alot of nations will have great standings with both. Sacrificing one of these nations relationships for a coup can often be worth it...

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/24/2015 5:38:05 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Ok, so it happened to me too. There was a major bug in the build I made for GD 1938. It is only present in the experimental build, so running older versions is still safe. However it is so bad that the game probably needs to be abandoned.

Here is the bug in all its glory details.
1). You (being an aggressive nation) have the choice to declare war on a minor nation. In some cases the country will collapse to overwhelming power, and just outright surrender. The countries hexes are given to you, and their forces are eliminated.
2). Some time passes, and suddenly the country which you had overwhelmed, seemingly revolts, and turns into another countries property, along with all the units present in its hexes.

Whats wrong is this. I forgot to turn off the countries drift. So it will still drift towards someones ownership (usually not yours), and change ownership when the chance happens that it would do so, if it had not been taken over.

Now its just a few lines of code I missed, but still pretty much ruins the game.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but the game should probably end.

In that spirit, I would love for some feedback on two new features of the new build.

1). The new OOBs for minors, that makes them tougher, and perhaps better to coup now than before. (I am sure I am going to hear alittle about this).

2). The Intimidation factor. Should it change, and if so how.

As always, thanks for playing :)

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/24/2015 6:11:57 PM   
Twotribes


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I noticed not all minors got extra troops.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/24/2015 6:35:53 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Actually they did, just some got a lot less than others.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/25/2015 10:20:29 AM   
cpdeyoung


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Here are some (requested) thoughts, which reflect only my own feelings, and I know others will see it differently.

The biggest problem I see is the changes in strategic level motivation in GD1938. In my opinion the game works much better if Germany is strong and has the goal of destroying the Soviets. Please note that I did not say that this is desirable because it happened, but rather that the dynamics of the game work better. Germany, Italy and Japan should be aggressors, not because they were, but because the engine of the game works better that way.

If larger OOBs for minors, and coups, hamper the Germans and Italians then the game will be less enjoyable. In games where France holds out against Germany we have seen stagnation, and long wars of production. I am not saying the French should be doomed, but it should take superior play to hold out.

Some really problematic games come about when Germany(/Italy) and the Soviets are really allied and working together. All the "world holds its breath" drama leaves the game. Two(3, 4) really big powers get together and take the world. In my opinion this alliance, with good players in both Axis and Soviet roles will win against all comers. I think the victory conditions or a house rule should make this alliance very unattractive.

I know that I have engineered just such a four vs four alliance in this game. USSR-Germany-Italy-Japan vs USA-China-France-GB, given equal play, should always result in a victory for the Axis-Soviet side. I suspect the game isn't even fun for the other side.

I know the Nazi-Soviet pact happened, and I am sure there will be some co-operation, but a true "big boys rule" alliance till game's end may well be a boring game. We have played many games of GD1938 between us. We want to try new combinations and I understand that, but the Axis-Soviet alliance idea may work just too well. I am delighted with the fresh thought going into Game 19! We have never seen that combo before.

I think the best way to address these issues will be in victory conditions manipulation, and it will be really tricky. We do have a top grade group however, and I think it can be done. One idea might be to have alliance VCs as well as individual national ones, as has been suggested before. I also think the VCs should be mutable within limits. The decision for "unconditional surrender" was not made at the beginning of the war. A nation should be able to react to developments.

I throw these thoughts out for discussion. What do you all think?

Chuck

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/25/2015 12:54:42 PM   
ironduke1955


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Victory may be better if it stays simple, the reason Germany Italy and Japan went to war was they wanted control of raw materials, Oil Rubber Tungsten Manganese and a whole list of raw materials available to the UK USA and the USSR. they wanted what the these powers had. The populations and cities in these countries were not really the reason they took the country, this explains their barbaric treatment of indigenous populations, reducing them to the level of slaves or worse, the Axis wanted empire and the benefits of empire. What makes a war between Germany and the USSR inevitable is the oil wheat timber gas and all the other raw materials that the USSR possesses and the Germans/Italians/Japanese want. The winner of the game could be the one sitting above these raw materials at the end.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/25/2015 10:27:50 PM   
Bombur

 

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A few comments:

cpdeyoung is right, an alliance between USSR and the Axis is almost invincible, as it can easily take cotrol over the Eurasia land mass. Of course, if the USA breaks neutrality early, then this alliance could be stopped. In fact, if such an alliance existed, then it would have won WWII. However, this alliance, in GD1938, is very difficult to be kept both in real world and GD1938. In real life, it wasnīt implemented due to conflicting ideologies and geopolitical objectives. In GD1938, this instability can only be achieved by the victory conditions we implemented. Thatīs why Iīm against changing them, if we were to change them, I would have made them random to add even more unpredictability to the game. The big trouble is that we are no Hitlers and Stalins, as gamers, we can follow a much more rational path. This usually involves a German-Soviet alliance. We are not worried abut Lebensrau and other stupidities, so itīs only a matter of who will win the game. However, when we add to this a lot of victory conditions and keep players blind on what are the conditions for their potential foes (or allies), then any alliance becomes inherently unstable. In other words, we are able to simulate real word constrainsts for all players. If the Germans are, from start, oriented towards conquest of WWII, then any alliance with USSR will last only a few years. Otherwise, they can achieve long term cooperation, but the Soviet will be never sure of the intentions of his ally. If we have a 8 player game, things are even more complex, because there is nothing to make sure an alliance between France and GB or Germany and Italy. This adds complexity. Itīs possible to have France allied to Germany in a crusade against a USSR supported by USA, just to give you an example. On our game, I vote for a restart as soon ernie fixes the bug.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/27/2015 11:12:02 PM   
Bombur

 

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I vote for a restart with v221 (the one from the community site). This also valid for the second game.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/28/2015 2:32:37 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Ok, Guys, I made a new version of the mod, in which Intimidation is fixed, but not changed (yet). So the bug we experienced is not present.

I suggest we make an overview of who is willing to try it out, and then rechoose sides, and start over.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/28/2015 4:24:41 PM   
RufusTFirefly

 

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Count me in for the restart, please.

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/29/2015 12:49:08 PM   
LJBurstyn

 

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okay, still willing to try it out.
Japan?

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RE: GD1938 Game 22 (Experimental One) - 6/29/2015 4:28:04 PM   
davebob

 

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Seems this scenario has run smack dab into Halford Macinders' "Heartland/World Island" theory of geopolitics. Briefly, he who controls the Heartland, roughly, Berlin/Moscow/Palestine, would control the World Island. Who controls the world island, Europe/Asia/Africa, dominates the world. Generally, peripheral states will play spoiler to attempts to the consolidation of the Heartland. Nobody was fooled by the Nazi/Soviet pact in its drunken one nite stand. It was never going to be a marriage.
In game terms, all politics and alignments were underscored by this theory,(still are today).Tho alternative historys are fun, if the German/Russian nation were possible, the state maps and placements wouldn't look anything like what is presented historically.
Course, now if there were a Confederate States of America, aligned with the Axis......

_____________________________

Having said that,that being said,that having been said,saying that,that having been said,having said all that,that said.....

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