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RE: Invasion West Coast!

 
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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/14/2016 5:23:18 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Not barges. Looks like a 1 BB TF. A CA/CL TF and a big transport TF together with 2 ASW TFs.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/14/2016 5:43:51 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Joined: 7/29/2009
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Battle of Santa Ana
_____________________________________________________________________________

Huge battle this turn. Its not a crushing victory but a mighty blow to the empire nonetheless.

quote:

Ground combat at Santa Ana (226,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 81585 troops, 1495 guns, 4262 vehicles, Assault Value = 3230

Defending force 119800 troops, 1466 guns, 1064 vehicles, Assault Value = 2995

Allied adjusted assault: 1483

Japanese adjusted defense: 989

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: op mode(-), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
7630 casualties reported
Squads: 53 destroyed, 408 disabled
Non Combat: 22 destroyed, 145 disabled
Engineers: 24 destroyed, 69 disabled
Guns lost 219 (48 destroyed, 171 disabled)
Vehicles lost 122 (30 destroyed, 92 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2835 casualties reported
Squads: 19 destroyed, 215 disabled
Non Combat: 63 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 24 disabled
Guns lost 117 (46 destroyed, 71 disabled)
Vehicles lost 149 (23 destroyed, 126 disabled)
Units destroyed 1


Assaulting units:
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
6th Armoured Division
8th Motorized Division
91st Infantry Division
3rd Marine Division
Provisional Tank Brigade
757th Tank Battalion
13th Armoured Division
2nd Armored Division
5th Armoured Division
44th Infantry Division
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
2nd Army Tank Brigade


Defending units:
1st Division
2nd Division

4th Ind Engineer Regiment
4th Division
18th Tank Regiment
16th Division
12th Division
9th Division
1st Tank Division
6th Guards Division
5th Guards Division

22nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
22nd Fld AA Gun Co
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
11th RF Gun Battalion
1st Fleet
305th Ship Eng Coy
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
9th RF Gun Battalion
5th RF Gun Battalion
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
15th Air Defense AA Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
10th RF Gun Battalion
1st Air Defense AA Battalion
8th RF Gun Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
22nd Ind.AA Gun Co
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Air Defense AA Regiment
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
32nd Air Defense AA Battalion
12th Ind.AA Gun Co
56th JNAF AF Unit


Basically Jeff emptied LA completely and the troops managed to get into Santa Ana in the nick of time. The troops took a huge beating though and around 500AV is shaved off the main force. Allied forces suffer from disruption and will have to rest for 2-3 days. But only 14 tanks are disabled.

Japanese forces are now caught in the open without forts. The heavy artillery from LA will move in together with 2 fresh divisions and start working over the troops together with the 4Es.

I was considering starting to move out the 1600 AV from SD to threaten his rear but decided against it at this point. To early to call it a victory but it was the first step to one. I don´t think he will be able to recover the disablements suffered today in meaningful numbers.




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< Message edited by JocMeister -- 10/14/2016 5:46:54 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/14/2016 6:18:07 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Reinforcements!
_____________________________________________________________________________

I bet this won´t make the emperor very happy either...




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Post #: 3153
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 2:54:11 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 3154
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 5:22:14 AM   
Lokasenna


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I don't see why you wouldn't move the troops up from San Diego now. There's no reason not to. The more pressure you put on his troops the better.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 6:53:48 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.


Not sure I follow? The troops arriving from LA took part in the attack so their AV is accounted for?

Flak is still strong so I doubt supply is an issue right now for him. Losing 2-4 bombers per turn.

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Post #: 3156
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 6:56:57 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't see why you wouldn't move the troops up from San Diego now. There's no reason not to. The more pressure you put on his troops the better.


There is still 28 units at Camp Pendleton and he can move quickly between CP and SA. I´m afraid to move out and get caught in the open in the clear hex without forts at CP with my SD army.

Don´t want to give him SD now that I fought so hard to deny him just that.


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Post #: 3157
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 7:11:59 AM   
JocMeister

 

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West Coast
_____________________________________________________________________________

Looks like he has given up on his troops. IMO they were doomed when Japan lost air superiority. Having the KB airwings shot to pieces over Camp Pendleton two weeks ago certainly didn´t help now.

Funny how such a small thing as 75 P47s can turn the tide of a whole war!




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Post #: 3158
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/15/2016 5:39:56 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17277
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.


Not sure I follow? The troops arriving from LA took part in the attack so their AV is accounted for?

Flak is still strong so I doubt supply is an issue right now for him. Losing 2-4 bombers per turn.

I've never been too sure that all the AV of troops in move mode is counted in the raw AV of a combat. It seemed to me that enemy AV next round always seems better than it was prior despite losses. Just an impression - I don't catch enemy troops in the wrong mode often enough to be sure. Usually the Japanese are hunkered down behind forts and my troops are the ones moving in.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 3159
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/16/2016 12:08:20 AM   
witpqs


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Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.


Not sure I follow? The troops arriving from LA took part in the attack so their AV is accounted for?

Flak is still strong so I doubt supply is an issue right now for him. Losing 2-4 bombers per turn.

I've never been too sure that all the AV of troops in move mode is counted in the raw AV of a combat. It seemed to me that enemy AV next round always seems better than it was prior despite losses. Just an impression - I don't catch enemy troops in the wrong mode often enough to be sure. Usually the Japanese are hunkered down behind forts and my troops are the ones moving in.

AFAIK the full AV of the troops in other than Combat mode is counted. But, what I think you are hot on the trail of is that their adjusted AV will suffer the penalties of their mode, plus more vulnerability during various combat phases (artillery, etc.).

< Message edited by witpqs -- 10/16/2016 11:37:32 PM >


_____________________________


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/16/2016 8:05:31 AM   
JocMeister

 

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17th February -43
_____________________________________________________________________________

Quick update before I head out.

------------------------
West Coast
------------------------

Looks like the Japanese fleet is indeed pulling out. 12 allied subs are hunting them. Some scattered CAP up over Santa Ana. My sweeps did pretty poorly due to fatigue. Swapped them out for fresh squadrons.


------------------------
SOPAC
------------------------

Unloading at Milne. A bit risky but I have some P-38s flying CAP from PM.

------------------------
Andamans
------------------------

Japanese sweep for a 3rd day. Decided to pull my CAP out as I have plenty of AA in both bases and my CAP wasn´t performing as I had wished. No need to give him free kills.

------------------------
China
------------------------

Jeff has stated pushing here heavily again. No supply means I can only watch while he does. Chungking will fall shortly. Our plan here is simply to try and save remnants of the Chinese army so I can use them once I can get them into supply again.


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Post #: 3161
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/16/2016 7:43:29 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.


Not sure I follow? The troops arriving from LA took part in the attack so their AV is accounted for?

Flak is still strong so I doubt supply is an issue right now for him. Losing 2-4 bombers per turn.

I've never been too sure that all the AV of troops in move mode is counted in the raw AV of a combat. It seemed to me that enemy AV next round always seems better than it was prior despite losses. Just an impression - I don't catch enemy troops in the wrong mode often enough to be sure. Usually the Japanese are hunkered down behind forts and my troops are the ones moving in.

AFAIK the full AV of the troops in other than Combat mode is counted. But, what I think you are hot on the trail of is that there adjusted AV will suffer the penalties of their mode, plus more vulnerability during various combat phases (artillery, etc.).


I think one concept not being discussed is that combat results are from firepower not AV. It is my understanding AV simply determines if a retest occurs. I'm on my cell phone but I believe a good example is in my first AAR .. I caught the IJ trying to rail forces to Rangoon and I broke the rail line .. and then entered the hex with units in strategic mode .. the AV was around 1:5 as I remember but the results were 5 digits of IJ casulties armor. He strat mode

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3162
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/16/2016 11:39:40 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 25778
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looking good! He had an Op Mode - in that battle, which must mean the troops just arriving from LA were still in move mode.
Even though he lost 500 AV in the battle he may have brought a lot more than that from LA and it will be ready to fight next round.
Can you bombard to get a handle on the new AV level?
Do you have a feel for his supply situation (AA guns firing, etc.)? I'm thinking your success in sinking all those AKs a few turns back would have set him back in his supplies.


Not sure I follow? The troops arriving from LA took part in the attack so their AV is accounted for?

Flak is still strong so I doubt supply is an issue right now for him. Losing 2-4 bombers per turn.

I've never been too sure that all the AV of troops in move mode is counted in the raw AV of a combat. It seemed to me that enemy AV next round always seems better than it was prior despite losses. Just an impression - I don't catch enemy troops in the wrong mode often enough to be sure. Usually the Japanese are hunkered down behind forts and my troops are the ones moving in.

AFAIK the full AV of the troops in other than Combat mode is counted. But, what I think you are hot on the trail of is that there adjusted AV will suffer the penalties of their mode, plus more vulnerability during various combat phases (artillery, etc.).


I think one concept not being discussed is that combat results are from firepower not AV. It is my understanding AV simply determines if a retest occurs. I'm on my cell phone but I believe a good example is in my first AAR .. I caught the IJ trying to rail forces to Rangoon and I broke the rail line .. and then entered the hex with units in strategic mode .. the AV was around 1:5 as I remember but the results were 5 digits of IJ casulties armor. He strat mode


I believe you are right (it looks like auto-spell on your phone made "retreat" into "retest" ). The final AV odds are good for 1) "who owns the base?", and 2) "is a retreat tested for?"

_____________________________


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 12:07:03 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

I believe you are right (it looks like auto-spell on your phone made "retreat" into "retest" ). The final AV odds are good for 1) "who owns the base?", and 2) "is a retreat tested for?"


Yes .. auto spell check at its worse ..

I think how combat is resolved is a brilliant complexity in the ground game. In the ol' AH (Avilon Hill)
days one lined up strengths to ensure 3-1 and make "soak off attacks" in a very calculated set of motions with the outcome limited to a known CRT.
In this game you might have a clue of Attack Value at one level and gauge your operations based on that knowledge
.. a very industrious player knows the units and firepower potential .. then there are variables some of which cannot be known like enemy disruption but also includes variables like leadership that you can see a (+) (-)
what ever that means and supply (-) . which is pretty clear you are getting the advantage or are in deep trouble ..but you can't calculate how much (for the enemy) ..

So .. it is clear that units got caught in move mode and firepower effects were enhanced (see the casualties) as well as firepower reduced
now these units are out of move mode they still have X% disruption .. the disabled squads can be reasonably calculated...

Now the bold move is to shock! the safe move is to bombard .. rest some troops .. and reassess but not so much calculating AV but doing research in your units and the other guys understanding firepower matches ..then all the variables like experience fatigue leadership supply etc..
Is this not a great game ...

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 10/18/2016 12:08:33 AM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 5:06:31 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Another attack ordered at Santa Ana. Waiting for the turn...hopefully I will get it today!

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 6:37:45 PM   
JohnDillworth


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BTW, are the additional units that you received as an invasion bonus restricted? What is their experience level? Is it growing?

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 6:52:22 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

BTW, are the additional units that you received as an invasion bonus restricted? What is their experience level? Is it growing?


Almost everything that arrived was perma restricted sadly. One nice Canadian Tank BDE could be bought out though! 100 Mediums and 50 lights. Not too bad.

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Post #: 3167
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 6:54:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

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19th February -43
_____________________________________________________________________________

Turn starts with a nice sub attack. I rarely get anything off and even less rarely hit something and it explodes. So this was a nice surprise.

Is this the KB oilers?

quote:

Sub attack near Dadjangas at 79,94

Japanese Ships
AO Shiriya, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko
AO Hayamoto
TK San Ramon Maru
TK Ogura Maru #2
TK Nitiei Maru
PB Nishho Maru


Allied Ships
SS Tambor





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 3168
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/18/2016 7:00:20 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Santa Ana
_____________________________________________________________________________

Some DDs have been bombarding with pretty good results considering they are...well DDs!

quote:

Night Naval bombardment of Santa Ana at 226,76

Allied Ships
DD Chew
DD Ward
DD Hull
DD Dewey
DD Worden
DD Monaghan
DD Phelps
DD Strong


Japanese ground losses:
304 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Second attack goes well. Getting units destroyed is never a good sign. Also not the h

quote:

Ground combat at Santa Ana (226,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 93368 troops, 1755 guns, 4353 vehicles, Assault Value = 3786

Defending force 118821 troops, 1525 guns, 1436 vehicles, Assault Value = 2861

Allied adjusted assault: 1329

Japanese adjusted defense: 923

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3259 casualties reported
Squads: 13 destroyed, 176 disabled
Non Combat: 94 destroyed, 90 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 29 disabled
Guns lost 181 (16 destroyed, 165 disabled)
Vehicles lost 240 (106 destroyed, 134 disabled)
Units destroyed 2


Allied ground losses:
2079 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 248 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 46 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 31 disabled
Guns lost 97 (16 destroyed, 81 disabled)
Vehicles lost 268 (50 destroyed, 218 disabled)


Troops will need to rest for 2-3 turns to recover disruption. In the meantime the arty that just arrived will keep the defenders occupied.

Have to stand down the bombers now though. Flak is just absolutely murderous. Losing 5-15 bombers per turn now. Can´t afford that. Better to save them for somewhere else. In fact many of them will start shipping out to SOPAC and India now.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 7:39:39 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17277
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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

19th February -43
_____________________________________________________________________________

Turn starts with a nice sub attack. I rarely get anything off and even less rarely hit something and it explodes. So this was a nice surprise.

Is this the KB oilers?

quote:

Sub attack near Dadjangas at 79,94

Japanese Ships
AO Shiriya, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko
AO Hayamoto
TK San Ramon Maru
TK Ogura Maru #2
TK Nitiei Maru
PB Nishho Maru


Allied Ships
SS Tambor


The slow and weak escort and the tankers suggest this is just a fuel convoy for the HI. Not fast enough to stay near KB.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 8:07:31 AM   
Lokasenna


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With a PB in the TF (max speed 14), no that is not the KB oiler TF.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 8:09:53 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Just caught up with this AAR and what a treat it was! It was really cool to see a Japanese player to attempt it and make a serious bid at it too. It makes me wonder if a WC gambit is even possible, he seemed seriously dedicated to it and still couldn't get through.

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Post #: 3172
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 9:41:33 AM   
Anachro


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I think it's possible in '42. Also perhaps possible in early '43, but would require surprise and an Allied player who fails to build up defenses on the WC.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 10:52:18 AM   
Crackaces


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The WC attack added a lot of drama to this game .. but in my opinion the previous players assault on Pearl Harbor sealed the IJ's fate in 1945
want an example? .. PzB's AAR vs Andy Mac

Now that the IJ have much of their ground units that would be counterattacking in 1943 -1944 in an enclave set to die ...
the stage is set for Allies to own he IJ .

The winning strategy is a defense in depth ...

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 7:16:48 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

With a PB in the TF (max speed 14), no that is not the KB oiler TF.


Ah, well that is a shame...1 AO down though!

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 7:26:59 PM   
JocMeister

 

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Just caught up with this AAR and what a treat it was! It was really cool to see a Japanese player to attempt it and make a serious bid at it too. It makes me wonder if a WC gambit is even possible, he seemed seriously dedicated to it and still couldn't get through.


Thanks! Glad you enjoy it.

IMO I don´t think its possible. Even if Nick had gone straight for the WC after he took Coal Harbor the emergency reinforcements are just too strong to overcome. Maybe a raid to sack some of the industry might work but I´m not sure it would work.

I share Crackaces thoughts on this. Going for PH and/or WC is IMO not the best of moves. The investments just doesn´t pay enough. Especially considering it will be on the expense of pretty much everything else. Even if Jeff had successfully raided SD or even LA for that matter he would still have to deal with the fact that the Allies are on the doorstep to the DEI in early 43.

Also worth to note here is that the Japanese losses suffered in taking PH is not insignificant from a AV perspective. Ship and plane losses added up to a LOT of allied VPs.


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/19/2016 7:44:24 PM   
Canoerebel


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Pearl Harbor may not have been worth it for Jeff, but that doesn't mean it's never worth it. I've seen experienced Japanese players take it quickly, efficiently and at modest cost. (I'm going from very old memory here, but John III vs. NYGiants is a good example, IIRC.)

Taken the right way and under the right conditions, an early Japanese conquest of Hawaii might well be beneficial in a campaign to achieve AV through an early attack on the West Coast.

Some very bright Forumites have discussed, at length and many years ago, ways in which a West Coast gambit, or modified versions, could harvest the points necessary to achieve AV. Also, there have been other ideas, such as attacking industry to ruin CVE production (Portland!) or 4EB production, which may have merit on their own, apart from auto victory considerations.

Unless an Alied player is very, very negligent, I do think a West Coast gambit needs to happen early, before forts are built up.

A later WC gambit might be successful against a less attentive or experienced player, but Jocke's commendable attention to fort-building and garrisoning doomed Jeff in this case, I believe.


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/20/2016 3:24:31 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pearl Harbor may not have been worth it for Jeff, but that doesn't mean it's never worth it. I've seen experienced Japanese players take it quickly, efficiently and at modest cost. (I'm going from very old memory here, but John III vs. NYGiants is a good example, IIRC.)

Taken the right way and under the right conditions, an early Japanese conquest of Hawaii might well be beneficial in a campaign to achieve AV through an early attack on the West Coast.

Some very bright Forumites have discussed, at length and many years ago, ways in which a West Coast gambit, or modified versions, could harvest the points necessary to achieve AV. Also, there have been other ideas, such as attacking industry to ruin CVE production (Portland!) or 4EB production, which may have merit on their own, apart from auto victory considerations.

Unless an Alied player is very, very negligent, I do think a West Coast gambit needs to happen early, before forts are built up.

A later WC gambit might be successful against a less attentive or experienced player, but Jocke's commendable attention to fort-building and garrisoning doomed Jeff in this case, I believe.




I think the lesson is .. the AFB's must build up the west coast and protect very key landing points ..
especially with Scenario #2 .. and look alike options .. The other lesson is for the IJ .. if a DBB scenario
build up the DEI with supplies and build up a defensive line before foraying into the deep pits of allied controlled territory
else a quick taking of just a few key bases will endanger the lifeblood of the IJN ..

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3178
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/20/2016 4:41:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pearl Harbor may not have been worth it for Jeff, but that doesn't mean it's never worth it. I've seen experienced Japanese players take it quickly, efficiently and at modest cost. (I'm going from very old memory here, but John III vs. NYGiants is a good example, IIRC.)

Taken the right way and under the right conditions, an early Japanese conquest of Hawaii might well be beneficial in a campaign to achieve AV through an early attack on the West Coast.

Some very bright Forumites have discussed, at length and many years ago, ways in which a West Coast gambit, or modified versions, could harvest the points necessary to achieve AV. Also, there have been other ideas, such as attacking industry to ruin CVE production (Portland!) or 4EB production, which may have merit on their own, apart from auto victory considerations.

Unless an Alied player is very, very negligent, I do think a West Coast gambit needs to happen early, before forts are built up.

A later WC gambit might be successful against a less attentive or experienced player, but Jocke's commendable attention to fort-building and garrisoning doomed Jeff in this case, I believe.


If AV is the goal attacking Hawaii is (IMHO) definitely not the best opening. The math is somewhere in this AAR but I remember getting 1k+ VPs from the Japanese attack on PH. Ships sunk by CD fire and planes lost to Allied CAP and AA while suppressing the allies on Hawaii. I´m no Japanese player but I know Nick was a very good one and I have no doubt he set it up as optimal or close to as was possible.

1k+ VPs for the allies is HUGE that early. Its 4k VPs the Japanese would have to make up somewhere else which is no small task. The amount of VPs gained by Japan wasn´t that great and if I remember correctly the net VP gain for Japan was a measly 1500 VPs. For an operation of that size I would say its a very bad deal. So a PH attack would have to be followed up by something else for it to be meaningful.

I just don´t think there is something meaningful to follow up with. There are far better targets out there which would at the very least give at least the same VPs for far lesser risk.

Also worth keeping in mind is that Jeff/Nick pretty much went all in on this OP. SOPAC, OZ and Burma are completely neglected. China is still not conquered and there are no defensive lines in place whatsoever anywhere on the map. And despite all that the WC OP STILL failed. Going absolutely all in with SCEN2 and it still failed...

If I ever play Japan I know for sure what opening I would do. This is not the one.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3179
RE: Invasion West Coast! - 10/20/2016 4:55:08 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Pearl Harbor may not have been worth it for Jeff, but that doesn't mean it's never worth it. I've seen experienced Japanese players take it quickly, efficiently and at modest cost. (I'm going from very old memory here, but John III vs. NYGiants is a good example, IIRC.)

Taken the right way and under the right conditions, an early Japanese conquest of Hawaii might well be beneficial in a campaign to achieve AV through an early attack on the West Coast.

Some very bright Forumites have discussed, at length and many years ago, ways in which a West Coast gambit, or modified versions, could harvest the points necessary to achieve AV. Also, there have been other ideas, such as attacking industry to ruin CVE production (Portland!) or 4EB production, which may have merit on their own, apart from auto victory considerations.

Unless an Alied player is very, very negligent, I do think a West Coast gambit needs to happen early, before forts are built up.

A later WC gambit might be successful against a less attentive or experienced player, but Jocke's commendable attention to fort-building and garrisoning doomed Jeff in this case, I believe.




In the end it really comes down to whether you want to win a game or play a WWII simulation. Although, a knock out of the Allies in the early months to gain Auto Victory is in itself an admirable achievement and deserves credit, it is not what I am looking for and not what I want to commit a few years of my life to see. The outcome relies on unrealistic factors and requires pushing the edge of the game mechanics and design to get the win. I hate to say it but I would probably just terminate the game and look for another opponent regardless of the outcome of the attempt. Nothing personal, it is just not what I am looking for in WITP.

Not to say I did not enjoy reading about it. But If I want a game, I will play some Doom or Monopoly.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3180
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