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Russians in Ukraine - 5/10/2015 9:44:36 PM   
Mad Russian


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Found this:

http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-russian-soldiers-quit-over-ukraine-075809415.html

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 1
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/11/2015 6:08:43 PM   
MaxDamage

 

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Where is any proof? Again western lying propaganda. Sorry these kinds of claims are rly annoying its like chemical WMD in Iraq back then or Assad's chem weapons attacks lol. The West is stuck head and shoulders in the Cold war and is training nazi paramilitaries in the Ukraine which then genocide the russian population of the country. Yes, there are maybe 30+% of russians in the Ukraine. This is the country's population. Some russians go there volunteerly thats true. And if you ask me its rly good that Russia supports them. because there isnt anyone else to protect the people from the western backed neonazis. Civilians dead are already 8000-10000 this is 4-5 times more then compared to the georgian Grad bombing of Tskhinvali. Its nothing less then genocide. And you re posting this lie? Are you feeling ok?

< Message edited by MaxDamage -- 5/11/2015 7:09:12 PM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)
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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/11/2015 6:51:01 PM   
ivanov


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I 'd suggest to lock this thread. It will only provoke an unnecessary ****storm and each side is going to stick to it's version of the events.

On the second thought, can you provide any proof of the genocide perpetrated by the "neonazis from Kiev" on the Russian population ( please don't quote the official Russian media and the Russian internet )? From the other side, there are countless examples of equipment being used by the separatists, that was never used by the Ukrainian army. Yes, I know, they bought it in the nearest shop with Russian equipment

< Message edited by katukov -- 5/11/2015 7:51:57 PM >


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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/11/2015 7:47:28 PM   
Mad Russian


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Posting this lie, as you put it, is subjective by you, and so far only you.

This is an article by Rueters News Agency. It's not a state run agency. You have articles you want to post for us to look at? That's what this thread is about.

And before we go any further I trust their entire report before I trust a single line put out by the Russian controlled news media.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/11/2015 8:53:01 PM >


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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/11/2015 9:55:07 PM   
ivanov


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Most of the western sources focus on the presence of various versions of T-72's among the rebel forces, since this type wasn't used by the Ukrainian army, so it couldn't be captured. The first tanks that appeared in rebel service were the T-64's and it was widely claimed, that they had been captured during the combat. It turned out to be a misinformation too. Check out this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f09_1418759950


It was taken in May/June of 2014 in the city of Krasnoyarsk in central Russia, next to which a massive tank storage is located. Now take a look at the map:



imagen jpg


The distance from there to Rostov on Don is over 4500 kilometers. It was believed at the time,that the hardware was arriving to Rostov by train, but when the video was taken, the situation of the separatists in the Eastern Ukraine was becoming critical, so the Russian decided to speed up the deliveries and the air transport was used.



Here's an article about the main transport hub near the border of Ukraine, from which the equipment was being sent to the frontline:


http://conflictreport.info/2015/01/08/one-base-to-rule-them-all-five-facts-you-should-know-about-russias-main-invasion-hub/


subir gif


You can actually still find the place on Google Earth, which is pretty amazing, just zoom in there:


imagen jpg

What's even more astounding, is that when is checked Google Earth last time, about 3 month ago, the place was empty, with just traces of many vehicle tracks. Right now there is an equipment there again, but of course we cannot know, when exactly the image was taken:




< Message edited by katukov -- 5/11/2015 11:06:56 PM >


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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/11/2015 11:45:17 PM   
Jagger2002

 

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As far as I can see, Russia could outright invade and occupy the Ukraine and the US, plus much of the west, would not have the moral, ethical or legal standing to mutter a peep. What Russia has or has not done in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what the US, supported by much of the West, has been doing in the Middle East, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Gaza, etc, etc since 2003. In the beginning of the 21st century, the moral, ethical and legal standing of just war has been replaced by the naked fist of brute power.

Personally, I no longer trust anything I read about the conflict whether coming from the Ukraine, Novorussia, Russia, the US, the west or the CIA. Everything appears aimed at producing short term propaganda objectives. So I don't think it is possible to achieve any sense of real "truth" from news reports. The best that can be done is to follow the money, know the history of as many of the players and try to determine who gains by instigating and maintaining the troubles. So we may have very strong suspicions but I doubt if we will ever really know the "truth".

BTW, if you haven't noticed, I am getting extremely cynical in my old age...

< Message edited by Jagger2002 -- 5/12/2015 12:55:56 AM >

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 12:03:14 AM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

As far as I can see, Russia could outright invade and occupy the Ukraine and the US, plus much of the west, would not have the moral, ethical or legal standing to mutter a peep. What Russia has or has not done in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what the US, supported by much of the West, has been doing in the Middle East, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Gaza, etc, etc since 2003. In the beginning of the 21st century, the moral, ethical and legal standing of just war has been replaced by the naked fist of brute power.


In my opinion what the US has done in the Middle East and what's Russia's doing in the Ukraine are two different issues, that don't negate nor support each other and shouldn't be viewed as such. Doesn't it all sound too familiar? If US meddles with the South American politics, why Soviet Union cannot intervene in Czechoslovakia, or if US intervened in Vietnam why USSR can't do the same in Afghanistan. The story goes on and on...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

Personally, I no longer trust anything I read about the conflict whether coming from the Ukraine, Novorussia, Russia, the US, the west or the CIA. Everything appears aimed at producing short term propaganda objectives. So I don't think it is possible to achieve any sense of real "truth" from news reports. The best that can be done is to follow the money, know the history of as many of the players and try to determine who gains by instigating the troubles. And we may have very strong suspicions but I doubt if we will ever truly know the "truth".


This is true to some degree but such a relativism may be a result of a intentional disinformation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llA1aVreIQk

< Message edited by katukov -- 5/12/2015 1:04:07 AM >


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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 12:10:25 AM   
Jagger2002

 

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quote:

In my opinion what the US has done in the Middle East and what's Russia's doing in the Ukraine are two different issues


IMO, they are absolutely connected in multiple ways....but I wouldn't want to attempt to prove it nor would I want to argue it.

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 2:48:08 AM   
delete1


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Hey MR and Katukov,

Although I do not agree 100% with I do share some of the view of jagger2002, but that’s as well my opinion.

I understand what you said about a state owned media and its biased/controlled news. At the other hand big medias such as Reuters, CNN, BBC, FoxNews and its associated corporations are as well controlled by powerful interests, as powerful as any state owned force that you can imagine. With the same power to filter the way info is released to the public. At the end you do as well have a world view as biased as anyone else.

I dot not trust any media, that’s why I read them all. Yes, I do read news about Ukraine in CNN, BBC, Reuters, MSNBC as well as in RT News, Sputnik News and Itar-Tass just to name a few in order to try to have a glimpse of whats going on there.

Mercenaries or volunteers or covered soldiers or whatever name you want to give them are fighting in Ukraine from and for both sides. Backed by US and its allies at one side and backed by Russia at the other side of the conflict. Both sides have tons of proof, photos, testimonials showing how the other one is manipulating the situation and how the other side is lying about its actions.

The fact is that Ukraine is in the middle of a geopolitical sandwich. Every major player there (US and its allies x Russia) is struggling to impose its view and protect its main interests, as always. We can argue that ones uses a more subtle way other a less subtle one, but at the bottom everyone involved is being very aggressive, using any means available.

Russia is reacting to a geopolitical situation that got to an intolerable shape in its world view and interests. It is important as well to understand why the situation got at that point and the history involved at that part of the planet.

I read an interesting article that discuss that a little bit. Its from BBC but unfortunately is in Portuguese. Will try to find it in English and share it here. Basically the article discuss the diplomacy or geopolitical failure from the west as one of the important reasons for the current situation with Russia nowadays and correlates that failure that have accumulated since the end of the cold war. Ukraine is part of that as a consequence that lead to a no understanding between the big players involved. Discuss also an already divided Ukraine way before the current open conflict emerged and the failure of the Ukrainian government to unify a multiethnic country. The Russians ethnics are a key component in eastern and southern Ukraine. A failure from current government and past governments, again since the end of the cold war. Topics like that.

Russia is not a dormant country anymore and with a little renewed geopolitical energy is trying to react to an unsustained situation for its interests. Every world player react promptly and aggressively on its own way to situations that threats its interests. US does, do and did that, China does, do and did that as well and so on.

Just to mention another interesting info I read, from forbes. A couple of independent pools, one from Germany the other one I think from UK showed that indeed the absolute majority of Crimeans backed the return to Russia and even after one year the situation has not changed. Western media actively blamed Russia of manipulating the entire situation and its people opinion in the first place. Just to say that the situation is complex, it is complex in eastern Ukraine and the coup that happened in Kiev that completed the mess in Ukraine is still very poor explained and lots of interests again were involved there. Here it is the article about the pools.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/

So if there is someone to blame there, that would be all parties involved. Everyone there has its hands with blood. Specially the leadership from all sides. No good guys from the West and bad ruskies from the east for me.

Please, no offense, I do respect your point of views, those above are just mine.

Cheers,

< Message edited by Daniel Rincon -- 5/12/2015 4:07:43 AM >

(in reply to Jagger2002)
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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 3:19:08 AM   
ivanov


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Daniel,

Just a quick comment since I need to go to sleep :) Of course there are strategic and geopolitical considerations: Russia considers Ukraine it's zone of influence and needs it, as at least a neutral buffer state. Then US doesn't really want to start a new Cold War with Russia since it would need it to outflank China. From the other hand, from Russian's point of view, China poses much bigger threat than the US and the West. So the current conflict is kind of an anomaly and none ( except from China ) benefits from it. It may just speed up decline of the west and Russia.

So you get the geopolitical point of view, which is one thing. And then you have the simple human point of view, which is about starting and sustaining a war in a foreign country ( could be Ukraine or Iraq - take your pick ). There was no ethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine and it was totally artificially provoked and engineered with a great help of the state run media. And it's just plainly wrong and immoral.

< Message edited by katukov -- 5/12/2015 4:20:33 AM >


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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 4:13:47 AM   
delete1


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Thanks for your answer Katukov! Just a quick reply from my side as well, have to go to bed too...very late here! :)!

Russia considers Ukraine it's zone of influence and needs it, as at least a neutral buffer state. Then US doesn't really want to start a new Cold War with Russia since it would need it to outflank China.

Yes, add that the fact that NATO has been moving closer and closer to russian borders, contrary of what was “agreed” with Gorbatchov during the fall of the soviet union, plus other actions taken by US and NATO since the end of the USSR and during a time Russia was mainly knocked out with no ways or energy to react. Thats another interesting article I will share here, have to find an english version, damn it! Not saying here that one side is right or wrong, please.

US dont want a new cold war...hmmm...thats another complex discussion, but lets assume that. US dont want a strong Russia either.

From the other hand, from Russian's point of view, China poses much bigger threat than the US and the West. So the current conflict is kind of an anomaly and none ( except from China ) benefits from it. It may just speed up decline of the west and Russia.

Interesting too. Thats something that has potential to change if US and its allies keeps the pressure in Europe and in Asia...might prompt that Russian-Sino threat to decline over time. Time will tell.

So you get the geopolitical point of view, which is one thing. And then you have the simple human point of view, which is about starting and sustaining a war in a foreign country ( could be Ukraine or Iraq - take your pick ).

Agreed, but for me both are completely interconnected. I blame that at all the layers point of views and blame both main parties involved to starting a war in a foreign country. There are a lot of ways to do that, not necessarily only sending tanks and soldiers to cross the foreign borders. But yes, at the human level the situation is specially a disgrace. Sad histories and human crimes commited by all sides.

There was no ethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine and it was totally artificially provoked and engineered with a great help of the state run media. And it's just plainly wrong and immoral.

Hmmm...again...I wouldnt be so sure about that. I can select a lot of non run state media an historians discussing a lot of problems inside Ukraine just about that, ethnics issues. The other thing is if those issues were used to take advantage of the interests involved, you are right. Thats is indeed a possibility.

Again Katukov, a very complex issue, as always is when we deal with real life. Don’t want to prolong too much this discussion. There are tons of things to consider.

Interesting inputs from your side, again, I respect your view.

Have to go, cheers,

(in reply to ivanov)
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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 4:18:11 AM   
Alex1812


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and what do you think about Americans in Ukraine?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/american-troops-in-ukraine-you-bet/5428067

http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-are-us-soldiers-in-mariupol/5426961

http://rt.com/news/243937-hmmwv-humvee-ukraine-army/

http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/20/us-troops-in-ukraine-to-train-soldiers-angering-russia/

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 11:11:42 AM   
Dorb


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Bottom line, everyone calls on us and rely on us when the free world is in danger. You gonna call Poland, Spain, China, Russia to help out. No they call on the USA. So yep over the years we have been involved in some crap - both good and bad and always will be stuck with this since WWII. But when folks crash planes into your cities full of people that brings another level of getting involved into the fray and things changed after that for everyone. I don't agree with a lot of things we get involved with and wish we would close our borders and get out of most of these countries and work on our internal problems. Let some of these countries above police the world for awhile and stand back and pick them apart.
My .02.
Wish everyone would just play PC wargames, would be much safer.

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 12:04:55 PM   
Mad Russian


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My comments before were simply to state that I would believe a news organization that states in the article that it couldn't collaborate the statements made to those put out by the Soviet government.

As a historian that has spent decades looking at the conflict of WW2, on the Eastern Front especially, I have seen first hand how the Soviet government manipulates the information for it's own use. It just does. It's how it's done there.

In the rest of the world the press is manipulated in different ways. You should always remember that everybody has an agenda. And that the military organizations of the West have just as much misinformation given out as the Soviets do.

To just blindly say that one side is lying but your side isn't is, to me, a very naive stance to take. There are people on this forum that are better informed than that. The entire reason for this thread is to discuss what is being said versus what we as a group may understand the situation to be.

I'm not overly political most of the time. I see some interesting parallels to what is happening now with the 1930's but that's my own opinion and a different subject altogether.

What is being reported is that there are both Russian combat troops in Ukraine or there never have been and never will be. What is our take on the entire issue?

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 2:30:55 PM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex1812

and what do you think about Americans in Ukraine?



The English speaking guy from the video has been already identified as a British Volunteer from the Azov battalion. There are all kinds of volunteers fighting on both sides of the conflict. There's even an American communist from Texas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cA9cGUGr00

As to the US troops in Ukraine, they have sent recently a company from the 173th Airborne to train the Ukrainian National Guard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-D6xqXyH0

Check the video out. I couldn't stop laughing when the guy came up with pizza analogy.

As to the military aid, the Ukrainians have been repeatedly requesting Javelin AT missiles from the US, so far the Obama's administration has approved only token non-lethal aid.

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 2:33:12 PM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

You gonna call Poland, Spain, China, Russia to help out.


Just out of curiosity - why have you singled out Poland and Spain? Are you aware that those countries along with UK are the biggeges US allies in Europe right now?

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 2:39:12 PM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Rincon


There was no ethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine and it was totally artificially provoked and engineered with a great help of the state run media. And it's just plainly wrong and immoral.

Hmmm...again...I wouldnt be so sure about that. I can select a lot of non run state media an historians discussing a lot of problems inside Ukraine just about that, ethnics issues. The other thing is if those issues were used to take advantage of the interests involved, you are right. Thats is indeed a possibility.



I've been in Ukraine few times, twice in Crimea, ALL of my friends from there are Russian speaking. Trust me, even in 2013 none was expecting any kind of ethnic conflict there.
What we are observing right now is the weaponization of information, which goes along with the reflexive control theory:

http://www.rit.edu/~w-cmmc/literature/Thomas_2004.pdf

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/12/2015 2:51:23 PM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What is being reported is that there are both Russian combat troops in Ukraine or there never have been and never will be. What is our take on the entire issue?

Good Hunting.

MR



My take on this is the following. Russia has inserted it's combat troops into Ukraine a number of times. Most notably few battalion groups in August of 2014, what led to Ukrainian debacle at Ilovaysk, which changed the course of the war. There were also many instances of cross border artillery fire, that cased a severe loses to the Ukrainian units, that were trying to cut off the separatists from Russia. Two of the Ukrainian jets have been also probably shot down by the Russian fighters firing "over the border". Most of the times, there are no coherent units of the Russian army in Ukraine. But there is a constant stream of "volunteers" and various specialists in unmarked uniforms. What's most important is the logistical support. Does anyone actually believe, that the rebel "republics" would be able to sustain offensive operations without a logistical support from Russia?

As of now, all points out to a renewed separatist offensive, most likely aimed at capturing the port city of Mariupol. My guess is, that we are going to see it within the next month or two.

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/13/2015 12:06:56 AM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

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The BBC has reported multiple times about this, including interviews with separatists who assert they were being led and supported by Russian troops and officers, and reports from Russian opponents of Putin who document hundreds of Russian soldiers killed in fighting in Ukraine, and put a price of something like two billion dollars so far on Russia's efforts there.

Now, you can call this propaganda or inaccurate, but there are numerous and fairly reliable reports from many sources that pretty much establish beyond much doubt that the Russians are in fact intervening in Ukraine and that the separatist successes have been largely the result of Russian support.

The denials by the Russians are pretty much pure maskirovka; why admit what you can plausibly deny?

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/13/2015 12:38:47 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex1812

and what do you think about Americans in Ukraine?




I don't think there is any question we have no less than advisers there. You can't believe anything our government or military puts out anymore than you can believe Russian media sources.

It will take at least 20 years before you start to get anything like an objective idea of what is happening on the ground there today.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Post #: 20
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/13/2015 3:04:12 PM   
Tazak

 

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Regime change is regime change regardless of which outside major country is supporting either side and all media outlet covers basically what their country leadership wants them too (those that don't get called "anti-government")

Could the situation in Ukraine turn into Russia's Cuba missile crisis

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 12:30:28 AM   
delete1


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Interesting review.

Brothers Armed: Military Aspects of the Crisis in Ukraine,

Presenting a collection of essays by leading Russian and Ukrainian experts, Brothers Armed charts the history of military reform and progress in Ukraine and Russia from the collapse of the Soviet Union to the 2014 annexation of Crimea.

http://www.russia-direct.org/reviews/9-views-militarization-ukraine-crisis

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Post #: 22
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 12:38:00 AM   
delete1


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Another interesting one.

Ukraine is divided in two, with or without Russia

Mar 10, 2015 Alexey Fenenko OPINION

One year after Crimea was incorporated by Russia, signs of political, ethnic and territorial fragmentation are everywhere in Ukraine. If this continues, Ukraine could become a “frozen” state.

http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/ukraine-divided-two-or-without-russia

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RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 12:52:14 AM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Rincon

Another interesting one.

Ukraine is divided in two, with or without Russia

Mar 10, 2015 Alexey Fenenko OPINION

One year after Crimea was incorporated by Russia, signs of political, ethnic and territorial fragmentation are everywhere in Ukraine. If this continues, Ukraine could become a “frozen” state.

http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/ukraine-divided-two-or-without-russia



Interesting source, I was not aware of it's existence:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_Beyond_the_Headlines

Seems a bit like Russia Today for professionals.


This is a nice investigative website:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/13/tracking-the-trailers-investigation-of-mh17-buks-russian-convoy/

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Post #: 24
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 1:05:58 AM   
delete1


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Sorry, this is the last one I promise. This complements and have another take on the same topic discussed at the above article. I have recently discovered this web site (Russia Direct.org). A nice place with analysis, reviews, opinions and etc...focused on Russia, US-Russian relations and so on. Claim to be fueled by a variety of experts from both sides and several different institutions worldwide (West and East). I am still exploring it, but seems quite interesting. Tons of articles.

To save Ukraine, the West must understand Ukraine

Mar 18, 2015 Yulia Karabkina OPINION

One year after Russia’s incorporation of Crimea, the Donbas is close to becoming a frozen conflict within Ukraine’s border. To prevent the further disintegration of Ukraine, the West first needs to understand how the Ukrainian crisis started and why it persists today.

http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/save-ukraine-west-must-understand-ukraine

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Post #: 25
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 1:11:54 AM   
delete1


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Indeed Katukov. Russia Direct looks interesting. I was not aware of its existence either untill recently. Does not feel biased in any way, at least we can find reviews with different point of views. I do know Russian Beyond the Headlines. Like that site as well, but I am starting to keep more and more with this Russia Direct one. Cheers...

Russia Direct

Russia Direct features articles, white papers and monthly memos that provide the kind of nuanced understanding required by those with a deep involvement and interest in U.S. and Russian foreign policy.

Russia Direct is a forum for experts and senior decision makers from both the United States and Russia to discuss, debate and understand the issues in U.S.-Russian relations from a sophisticated vantage point. Long-term, the goal of the project is to improve multilateral relations at the interpersonal, inter-agency and intergovernmental levels

< Message edited by Daniel Rincon -- 5/14/2015 2:20:43 AM >

(in reply to delete1)
Post #: 26
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 1:43:16 AM   
delete1


Posts: 117
Joined: 12/31/2014
Status: offline
Another interesting source of analysis, opinions and reviews. This not only focused on Russia:

http://www.realclearworld.com/

(in reply to delete1)
Post #: 27
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/14/2015 3:25:33 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Rincon

To save Ukraine, the West must understand Ukraine



I would say this is the biggest issue with any intervention anywhere in the world by any intervening force. Whether it's the US in Vietnam/Iraq or the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, Cuba in the Congo...whatever force is being applied to whichever situation.

Just going in and applying force to a situation rarely works well and never works as intended.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to delete1)
Post #: 28
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/15/2015 12:06:45 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2701
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline
I have followed some threads over at Battlefront that have been quite interesting regarding both sides of the conflict.

Anyway, CMBS is a truly deadly environment and I have become rather spooked and stopped playing it. FPRS is like a chit wargame that I can feel more comfortable and less creepy about playing right now.


(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 29
RE: Russians in Ukraine - 5/15/2015 9:37:21 AM   
Pawsy

 

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
Intervention wasnt going to happen (thankfully), Ukraine wasn’t in NATO so article 5 doesn’t apply. Lets hope the Politian’s can sort it out.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 30
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