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Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT)

 
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Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/27/2015 3:41:42 PM   
m10bob


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We have all seen the war films showing unit commanders "synchronizing" their watches, prior to an attack, knowing an artillery barrage will pre-empt the attack, when the guns would all fire at the same time.Well, there was another type of artillery fire which was much more deadly than simultaneous fire.

"Time On Target", known as TOT was when a suspected concentration of enemy units, or even a known tactical/strategic target was to be hit at the same moment. Instead of the guns firing at once, the target is surveyed for it's exact location, (as small an area as an intersection), and the fire is timed so all the fired shells will LAND at that point at the exact same time..
There is no initial "zeroing" shot fired, no warning to the intended target, and if done correctly, all shells will come in at once.
Usually, at least four arty Bn's will be engaged in this tactic.
The Americans became masters of this tactic during WW2 and the first fired in combat was by the 25th Infantry Division under Gen Lawton Collins on Guadalcanal.

BTW,the target of artillery (or concentrated small arms MG fire) is referred to as "the beaten zone"..

Effectiveness? Soon after Operation Cobra started (in France), a German battalion (target of a TOT fire mission) was found. The troops had been in formation when the shells landed and they were still in formation where they fell.




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< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/27/2015 6:51:40 PM >


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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/27/2015 6:01:53 PM   
Symon


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My time in uniform was with the artillery. We were trained in the technique in the 60s/70s, and still are. I was only involved once in a true TOT. I could count to 7 without using my toes and my parents were married, so after gun section service, I spent time in battery D.

It was Park Silver (April ’70) and we were shooting behind 10th Cav and 503rd Bird, west of Pleiku. Scouts reported an NVA regimental column on a known trail complex. The trail was at an acute angle to our firing front. We wanted them all. You don’t shoot at the frome of the column and “walk” it back. If ya do, the guys in the back are dee-dee-mau, if you know what I mean.

So we got a TOT alert from 173rd Brigade. The target was on a mile line, so higher had to find enough batteries to cover it in a single shot. They got 10 batteries from 4 105 battalions and 3 corps 155 players.

Every battery was surveyed in; every target was gridded in. Range was locked; Time of Flight was right off the tables; no atmospherics to speak of, and every battery/Bn was expected to understand the horizontals (my job). So, invert TOF and you get the firing sequence. And you get a butter-bar from higher doing the countdown.

Heard that we lit up the Q’ong pass pretty good. Things got light enough after that for the Hancock Dragoon Op.


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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/28/2015 9:30:50 AM   
NigelKentarus


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As a Fire Controlman in my 20 years in the US Navy, that was a requirement. Once a year, the ship had to re-qualify i's Naval Gun Fire Support (NGFS), and one of the graded exercises involved a fire mission with a TOT. I forget the exact parameters, but ordnance had to impact target +/- a few seconds for no penalty.

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/28/2015 9:27:09 PM   
Gregg

 

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Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/29/2015 7:20:05 AM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg



Isn't that what you just described MRSI, or "Multiple rounds simultaneous impact"?
Time on target should be when different firing units fire from different positions and the first rounds land all at once.

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/29/2015 1:22:01 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg



Isn't that what you just described MRSI, or "Multiple rounds simultaneous impact"?
Time on target should be when different firing units fire from different positions and the first rounds land all at once.

The point of MRSI is to do time on target with a single gun or fewer guns, or an even greater impact with the same number of guns.

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/29/2015 4:21:06 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg



Isn't that what you just described MRSI, or "Multiple rounds simultaneous impact"?
Time on target should be when different firing units fire from different positions and the first rounds land all at once.

The point of MRSI is to do time on target with a single gun or fewer guns, or an even greater impact with the same number of guns.


I'm aware of that :)

My question was mostly directed towards figuring out the correct terminology as english is not my native, nor my working language.

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/29/2015 5:03:27 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg



Isn't that what you just described MRSI, or "Multiple rounds simultaneous impact"?
Time on target should be when different firing units fire from different positions and the first rounds land all at once.

The point of MRSI is to do time on target with a single gun or fewer guns, or an even greater impact with the same number of guns.


I'm aware of that :)

My question was mostly directed towards figuring out the correct terminology as English is not my native, nor my working language.

The correct terminology (in English) is "Time On Target artillery fire"..It is shortened to TOT(Tee Oh Tee)..It is possible the army of your area never developed it, ergo, there may not be an equivalent term inn Estonian?
The Americans were experimenting with it in the thirties, first used it in combat on Guadalcanal, and perfected it in Europe before the war was over..

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/30/2015 10:54:19 AM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

Many moons ago, when I was working on an automatic projectile and powder bag loading system for the M109 155mm self propelled howitzer, we played around with Time on Target. We were able to get three shots off with the M109 using our robotic ammo handling system, and have all three projectles land on target with a fraction of a second. You have to loft the first shot so it takes a long time to reach the target. The second shot is not lofted as high, and the third shot was sort of a blooper. But it worked.
What was really neat, is that we were able to get three shots off, extract our modified M109 self propelled howitzer, move 1/2 a mile and dig the gun back in in less than four minutes. That was called shoot and scoot. It was to avoid counter battery fire.
Gregg



Isn't that what you just described MRSI, or "Multiple rounds simultaneous impact"?
Time on target should be when different firing units fire from different positions and the first rounds land all at once.

The point of MRSI is to do time on target with a single gun or fewer guns, or an even greater impact with the same number of guns.


I'm aware of that :)

My question was mostly directed towards figuring out the correct terminology as English is not my native, nor my working language.

The correct terminology (in English) is "Time On Target artillery fire"..It is shortened to TOT(Tee Oh Tee)..It is possible the army of your area never developed it, ergo, there may not be an equivalent term inn Estonian?
The Americans were experimenting with it in the thirties, first used it in combat on Guadalcanal, and perfected it in Europe before the war was over..



Time on target is nothing new for us. After all, it is just about taking into account the different times of flight from various firing positions. Why I ask is because there seems to be some confusion between MRSI and ToT on these boards.

ToT = first rounds from each troop/battery land at the same time. Achieved by just timing the opening salvo
MRSI = All the rounds from each gun land at the same time. Achieved by varying angle of fire and charges.

< Message edited by String -- 4/30/2015 11:58:16 AM >


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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/30/2015 11:14:14 AM   
ndworl

 

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Whatever you call it, it scared the **** out of me, watching concentrated artillery fire falling on "enemy" positions during live fire exercises in the late 1970s.

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 4/30/2015 3:08:37 PM   
iley

 

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Can't give an exact date. Mid 1970 on a mission with a company of 196 brigade.
On a hill overlooking a valley we saw a line of men about 100 total just beginning to enter a clump of trees.
The company commander got on his radio and called in and artillery strike.
The column is just beginning to come out of the other end of the trees when it hit.
Within 30 seconds cannot see anything but a cloud of dust.
Brigade headquarters thought so much of it that a few days later they sent someone to interview me about it.
I was not part of the company I was an attached dog handler guess they figured I would be less bias.

Iley
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

My time in uniform was with the artillery. We were trained in the technique in the 60s/70s, and still are. I was only involved once in a true TOT. I could count to 7 without using my toes and my parents were married, so after gun section service, I spent time in battery D.

It was Park Silver (April ’70) and we were shooting behind 10th Cav and 503rd Bird, west of Pleiku. Scouts reported an NVA regimental column on a known trail complex. The trail was at an acute angle to our firing front. We wanted them all. You don’t shoot at the frome of the column and “walk” it back. If ya do, the guys in the back are dee-dee-mau, if you know what I mean.

So we got a TOT alert from 173rd Brigade. The target was on a mile line, so higher had to find enough batteries to cover it in a single shot. They got 10 batteries from 4 105 battalions and 3 corps 155 players.

Every battery was surveyed in; every target was gridded in. Range was locked; Time of Flight was right off the tables; no atmospherics to speak of, and every battery/Bn was expected to understand the horizontals (my job). So, invert TOF and you get the firing sequence. And you get a butter-bar from higher doing the countdown.

Heard that we lit up the Q’ong pass pretty good. Things got light enough after that for the Hancock Dragoon Op.



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Post #: 11
RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 5/1/2015 4:57:24 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: iley

Can't give an exact date. Mid 1970 on a mission with a company of 196 brigade.
On a hill overlooking a valley we saw a line of men about 100 total just beginning to enter a clump of trees.
The company commander got on his radio and called in and artillery strike.
The column is just beginning to come out of the other end of the trees when it hit.
Within 30 seconds cannot see anything but a cloud of dust.
Brigade headquarters thought so much of it that a few days later they sent someone to interview me about it.
I was not part of the company I was an attached dog handler guess they figured I would be less bias.

Iley




Interesting, do you recall how long it took (roughly) from the call for fire to rounds landing and how much ground did the enemy cover during that time?



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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 5/2/2015 3:39:46 AM   
iley

 

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Sorry 45 years later no. If my mind was that good I would be a lot better at these games.

Iley

< Message edited by iley -- 5/2/2015 4:41:21 AM >

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RE: Fact sheet:"Time On Target"(TOT) - 5/2/2015 11:26:28 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Perhaps some of you may not already be aware of the Finnish AMOS system - a twin barrel 120 mm mortar where the turreted mortars can fire a SIXTEEN ROUND MRSI burst!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOS

Impressed the hell out of me when I read about it some years ago. Sweet!

Phil

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