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RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 4/29/2015 2:33:37 AM   
Kull


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Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Any tool that solved THAT problem would be a huge win!



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Post #: 31
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 4/29/2015 3:19:10 AM   
bartrat


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Tracker DOES dump a lot of pilot data. I use it manage my pilots and create Crystal reports. You can easily read the database data it uses WITHOUT having to get NDA for the save data from Matrix.
Please look in to it.

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Post #: 32
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 4/29/2015 10:14:07 AM   
richlove


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bartrat, are you able to read individual skill levels per pilot via Crystal? For example, can you see the NavT skill of pilot XYZ?

I spent a few minutes looking at the schema defined in tracker / trackerdb.script file; there's a "PILOTS" table but I don't see any columns that call out skill levels (although I'm not sure how far behind I am in tracker versions).

Side note: it took me a while to figure out what "CREATE CACHED TABLE TOES" was referring to

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Post #: 33
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 4/29/2015 4:33:02 PM   
bartrat


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It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

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Post #: 34
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 4/30/2015 6:57:28 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 13926
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I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

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Post #: 35
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/1/2015 1:21:20 AM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

Yup, so I feared. Maybe I can convince the folks behind Tracker to dump this data too. I figure if they can get experience then they can get skills fairly easily as well. Or I can get an NDA. If I can show that my automation tool is serious then maybe I can pull this off. I just need more time to invest in this. With only 1-2 hours a week this is going to take years to get a real program that I can think about giving to others. Then again, my current PBEM game may take longer to complete.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

I'd be interested in your complicated strategies for the Allies; I'm not going to worry about the Japanese pilots since they require much less management. I'm still trying to figure out optimal algorithms.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 36
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/1/2015 1:54:24 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 24197
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AFAIK the experience penalty is when changing to a plane that has pilots of a different pool category, as you say.

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Post #: 37
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/1/2015 4:17:13 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 5969
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quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


Yep, put a pilot trained in a single engine bomber into a twin engine and some experience is lost. Vice versa too. Makes sense when you think about it, I just wish there was a way in the pools to tell the difference.

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Post #: 38
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/1/2015 11:12:43 PM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


Yep, put a pilot trained in a single engine bomber into a twin engine and some experience is lost. Vice versa too. Makes sense when you think about it, I just wish there was a way in the pools to tell the difference.

I'm not denying that it makes sense IRL. Just a game mechanic question. Can you show me an example of this with a screenshot before and after? I want to see the drop of experience on a particular pilot. Frankly, I don't know how the game would even store this info. I don't believe the game records how many engines were in the plane the pilot was training in. But I've been wrong before.

< Message edited by Sangeli -- 5/2/2015 12:13:33 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/1/2015 11:18:28 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 13926
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

Yup, so I feared. Maybe I can convince the folks behind Tracker to dump this data too. I figure if they can get experience then they can get skills fairly easily as well. Or I can get an NDA. If I can show that my automation tool is serious then maybe I can pull this off. I just need more time to invest in this. With only 1-2 hours a week this is going to take years to get a real program that I can think about giving to others. Then again, my current PBEM game may take longer to complete.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

I'd be interested in your complicated strategies for the Allies; I'm not going to worry about the Japanese pilots since they require much less management. I'm still trying to figure out optimal algorithms.



My strategies for the Allied side are not particularly complicated in part because the US has a surplus of everything and the Brits are darn near hopeless. It's how to manage the Japanese airforces that's complicated. They have a surplus of nothing.

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Post #: 40
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/2/2015 2:49:15 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3046
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

Yup, so I feared. Maybe I can convince the folks behind Tracker to dump this data too. I figure if they can get experience then they can get skills fairly easily as well. Or I can get an NDA. If I can show that my automation tool is serious then maybe I can pull this off. I just need more time to invest in this. With only 1-2 hours a week this is going to take years to get a real program that I can think about giving to others. Then again, my current PBEM game may take longer to complete.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

I'd be interested in your complicated strategies for the Allies; I'm not going to worry about the Japanese pilots since they require much less management. I'm still trying to figure out optimal algorithms.



The Allies have complicated strategies ?

(in reply to Sangeli)
Post #: 41
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/2/2015 9:37:04 AM   
Spidery

 

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quote:

I'm not denying that it makes sense IRL. Just a game mechanic question. Can you show me an example of this with a screenshot before and after? I want to see the drop of experience on a particular pilot. Frankly, I don't know how the game would even store this info. I don't believe the game records how many engines were in the plane the pilot was training in. But I've been wrong before.


I think it depends how you draw the pilot from the pool. I think there is no impact when drawing from the top or bottom of the list but can be an impact when picking a specific pilot.

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Post #: 42
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 8:51:21 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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I see an experience drop when I put a "bomber reserve" pilot (right column) in a patrol squadron, and vice-versa (e.g. a pilot trained on PBYs and put in a PV-1 squadron). Ditto for Kingfisher-trained pilots put into F4F squadrons.

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 43
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 10:24:32 AM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?


Yep, put a pilot trained in a single engine bomber into a twin engine and some experience is lost. Vice versa too. Makes sense when you think about it, I just wish there was a way in the pools to tell the difference.

I'm not denying that it makes sense IRL. Just a game mechanic question. Can you show me an example of this with a screenshot before and after? I want to see the drop of experience on a particular pilot. Frankly, I don't know how the game would even store this info. I don't believe the game records how many engines were in the plane the pilot was training in. But I've been wrong before.


One of the most common places I see this happen is with Japanese bomber pilots.

This is because both the G3/G4 pilots, and the B5N pilots have similar skill sets - generally high NavT, highish NavB, and then possibly ASW or GrdB, so its sometimes hard to tell which is from which group.

When you pull one from the other 'group', say a pilot trained on a G3 (considered a Medium Bomber) into a B5 (considered a Torpedo Bomber), you will get a drop off (in my experience) 2-5 experience.

I think the game tracks it by aircraft class, so in the above MB and TB are seperate. I'm not sure if it tracks MB as just being part of 'level bombers', or if it splits it into LB/MB/HB too - I haven't tried pulling pilots trained on light bombers like Ki-51s into Ki-21s. Will give that a shot to check when I next shuffle pilots.

Another easy one that might cause this for the Japanese is Fighter and Float-Fighter pilots, since I think those both pool under the Fighter tab in the reserves.

Here's a pair of screenshots showing this happening;

Heres are two pilots from the reserve pool of Japanese 'Bomber' pilots, and a pair which through trail and error (no other way to know) I figured out were trained on G3/G4's most likely.


Here are the same pilots, after pulling them into CTF Det-1 which flies the B5N. Note that they've lost 2 and 1 experience respectively.


(Apologies for the censored screens, this is from an ongoing PBEM).

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/4/2015 11:38:06 AM >


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Post #: 44
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 6:47:26 PM   
Feltan


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While I really appreciate the effort to make a tool to automate this task, it seems to me to be a bit of an overkill.  I readily admit that I may be missing something here, but the tedium some players exercise on this task seems largely unnecessary in my gaming experience.  To be clear, I do train pilots and I think it is necessary.  However, I tend to train them in 90-day batches and then release them to the pool -- the final training takes place in the unit they eventually end up assigned to which I don't manage.

By '44, the Allies have so many air units that the marginal quantitative difference obtained by uber-micromanagement seems unimportant.  It may be different for Japan, but I think the die is cast there as well -- no matter how good they are they get swamped by Allied pilots that are just "OK," but "OK" in numbers that Japan can't hope to counter.

To each his own of course, but this task as it is currently envisioned in the game is really not a problem nor a burdensome task in my opinion and experience. 

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 45
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 8:17:07 PM   
obvert


Posts: 13323
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

While I really appreciate the effort to make a tool to automate this task, it seems to me to be a bit of an overkill.  I readily admit that I may be missing something here, but the tedium some players exercise on this task seems largely unnecessary in my gaming experience.  To be clear, I do train pilots and I think it is necessary.  However, I tend to train them in 90-day batches and then release them to the pool -- the final training takes place in the unit they eventually end up assigned to which I don't manage.

By '44, the Allies have so many air units that the marginal quantitative difference obtained by uber-micromanagement seems unimportant.  It may be different for Japan, but I think the die is cast there as well -- no matter how good they are they get swamped by Allied pilots that are just "OK," but "OK" in numbers that Japan can't hope to counter.

To each his own of course, but this task as it is currently envisioned in the game is really not a problem nor a burdensome task in my opinion and experience. 

Regards,
Feltan


Maybe your opponent(s) also didn't train their pilots much.

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Post #: 46
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 9:25:31 PM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
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From: San Francisco
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
One of the most common places I see this happen is with Japanese bomber pilots.

This is because both the G3/G4 pilots, and the B5N pilots have similar skill sets - generally high NavT, highish NavB, and then possibly ASW or GrdB, so its sometimes hard to tell which is from which group.

When you pull one from the other 'group', say a pilot trained on a G3 (considered a Medium Bomber) into a B5 (considered a Torpedo Bomber), you will get a drop off (in my experience) 2-5 experience.

I think the game tracks it by aircraft class, so in the above MB and TB are seperate. I'm not sure if it tracks MB as just being part of 'level bombers', or if it splits it into LB/MB/HB too - I haven't tried pulling pilots trained on light bombers like Ki-51s into Ki-21s. Will give that a shot to check when I next shuffle pilots.

Another easy one that might cause this for the Japanese is Fighter and Float-Fighter pilots, since I think those both pool under the Fighter tab in the reserves.

Interesting. Maybe this is because you manually selected the pilot rather than drawing from the top/bottom of the pool. For some reason the way you select the pilot has an effect on how it transfers. The fact that one pilot went from delay 1 to delay 6 suggests that. That being said, I plan on avoiding the manual pilot select so it won't be an issue. Otherwise I think it's near impossible to track this because there isn't any info about what groups a pilot used to be in.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
By '44, the Allies have so many air units that the marginal quantitative difference obtained by uber-micromanagement seems unimportant.  It may be different for Japan, but I think the die is cast there as well -- no matter how good they are they get swamped by Allied pilots that are just "OK," but "OK" in numbers that Japan can't hope to counter.


I'm not sure what games you're playing but at the start of 44 in most games the Japanese still are able to put up quite a fight in the air against the Allies. Many of the advanced fighters are coming online around this time and the Japanese have no problems replacing lost aircraft.

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Post #: 47
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/4/2015 10:37:36 PM   
Numdydar

 

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AC are not Japan's major issue. It is pilots. You simply cannot train them fast enough to keep up with the losses. Especially as the war drags on as they use quite a bit of HI to keep the pilots in Training moving along.

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Post #: 48
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 12:32:20 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 900
Joined: 12/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
One of the most common places I see this happen is with Japanese bomber pilots.

This is because both the G3/G4 pilots, and the B5N pilots have similar skill sets - generally high NavT, highish NavB, and then possibly ASW or GrdB, so its sometimes hard to tell which is from which group.

When you pull one from the other 'group', say a pilot trained on a G3 (considered a Medium Bomber) into a B5 (considered a Torpedo Bomber), you will get a drop off (in my experience) 2-5 experience.

I think the game tracks it by aircraft class, so in the above MB and TB are seperate. I'm not sure if it tracks MB as just being part of 'level bombers', or if it splits it into LB/MB/HB too - I haven't tried pulling pilots trained on light bombers like Ki-51s into Ki-21s. Will give that a shot to check when I next shuffle pilots.

Another easy one that might cause this for the Japanese is Fighter and Float-Fighter pilots, since I think those both pool under the Fighter tab in the reserves.

Interesting. Maybe this is because you manually selected the pilot rather than drawing from the top/bottom of the pool. For some reason the way you select the pilot has an effect on how it transfers. The fact that one pilot went from delay 1 to delay 6 suggests that. That being said, I plan on avoiding the manual pilot select so it won't be an issue. Otherwise I think it's near impossible to track this because there isn't any info about what groups a pilot used to be in.


Nope, it has nothing to do with manual select or top/bottom move buttons. This is easy enough to test with a limited sample size, and is also apparent for example with DB pilots, which also share that same 'Bomber' pool, but have very distinct skills (no NavT), and hence are easy to tell apart, meaning they don't suffer experience loss when you move them into their 'correct' group.

Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.

You're right its near impossible to track, though you can reduce incidents of it by using the squadron reserve instead of the general one as a 'holding zone', and also by making sure to differentiate pilot skills in similar categories (for example if all my G3 pilots had notably higher NavS skill, they would be easy to tell apart).

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/5/2015 1:37:00 AM >


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Post #: 49
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 1:49:00 AM   
Kull


Posts: 1822
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.


That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).

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Post #: 50
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 2:18:54 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 900
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.


That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).


That would be very useful if it could be done.

I'm actually current doing a few tests to see exactly how this works, or if I'm just imagining things. Want to see if for example there is a difference between the various bomber weight classes, or if its just 'category' - my hypothesis is that there isn't, and the data tracked is the same as the options you get under 'type' in the editor, whereas light/heavy/etc. seen to be modifiers onto that.

Will report back when I'm done.

EDIT: Here's some results. These are all tested to work both ways.

Firstly, did not see any drops between light, medium and heavy bombers. I could not test light->heavy, as the IJN has none of the first and the IJA none of the latter.

Secondly, there also does not seem to be a drop in experience between Float Fighters and Fighters, but there is one between Float Fighters and Float Planes, and FP -> Patrol.

At this point I'm going to say that I'm fairly certain its tracking the type code for the aircraft type (range 00-12), and barring specific exceptions (float fighter <-> fighter), if you pull a pilot into a group with a different type to his previous one, he looses experience.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/5/2015 3:44:30 AM >


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Post #: 51
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 2:34:11 AM   
Kull


Posts: 1822
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

I'm actually current doing a few tests to see exactly how this works, or if I'm just imagining things. Want to see if for example there is a difference between the various bomber weight classes, or if its just 'category' - my hypothesis is that there isn't, and the data tracked is the same as the options you get under 'type' in the editor, whereas light/heavy/etc. seen to be modifiers onto that.

Will report back when I'm done.


Thanks. This is one of those semi-anecdotal issues, where people know that something is going on, but aren't quite sure why. Facts and data would be much appreciated!

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Post #: 52
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 2:39:58 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.


That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).


JuanG is correct. Read Koniu's and my posts in this thread from last September.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3706882&mpage=1&key=�

1. The number of engines has nothing to do with the dropping of experience levels. It is moving a pilot from one aircraft class to another only that counts. As I pointed out in the highlighted thread, the experience loss is a random up to 10%. It usually averages out to about 4-5 percentage basis points but bear in mind it is governed by the usual caveat of die rolls.

2. Pilots with less than 50 experience do not suffer any experience loss when moved to a different aircraft class.

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

A fighter pilot in the General Reserve who was last assigned to the Hurricane IV, a single engine FB, will not suffer any experience loss if moved to a two engine FB but will experience an experience drop if moved to the Hurricane IIc, a single engine F. A fighter pilot who is moved from a Warhawk (singled engine F) to a Lightning (two engine F) does not experience an experience loss.

Alfred

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 53
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 2:44:00 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 900
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.


That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).


JuanG is correct. Read Koniu's and my posts in this thread from last September.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3706882&mpage=1&key=�

1. The number of engines has nothing to do with the dropping of experience levels. It is moving a pilot from one aircraft class to another only that counts. As I pointed out in the highlighted thread, the experience loss is a random up to 10%. It usually averages out to about 4-5 percentage basis points but bear in mind it is governed by the usual caveat of die rolls.

2. Pilots with less than 50 experience do not suffer any experience loss when moved to a different aircraft class.

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

A fighter pilot in the General Reserve who was last assigned to the Hurricane IV, a single engine FB, will not suffer any experience loss if moved to a two engine FB but will experience an experience drop if moved to the Hurricane IIc, a single engine F. A fighter pilot who is moved from a Warhawk (singled engine F) to a Lightning (two engine F) does not experience an experience loss.

Alfred


Thanks for the clarification Alfred, that matches what I'm seeing (posted some brief result into my last post).

The only thing I will run a few tests to double check is the F <-> FB move, as it would seem that if F <-> FF is an exception, then this one might be too.

EDIT: Ok, tested.

F <-> FB definately results in a drop.

Whats interesting is that rerunning the F <-> FF test, this time I did see drops - but only occasionally. Out of the 8 pilots I moved, 5 lost experience, 3 did not. These were all 80+ pilots.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/5/2015 3:53:36 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 54
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 3:17:17 AM   
Kull


Posts: 1822
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

Alfred


As a general rule, you dispute Alfred at your own risk, but here's a very easy test. Take any single engine Kate pilot and transfer them to a Betty unit. Loses experience every time (above 50 of course). Then move them to a Val. Experience lost again. The same thing happens if you move a Pete pilot into Emily or Mavis. Loses points every time. The latter is *probably* because the game CAN tell the difference between "Float Plane" and "Patrol". For example, you can move a Pete pilot into a Naval Babs Recon, and there's an enormous experience hit, so it's definitely not a case of the game classifying Pete as "Recon".

So I'm willing to believe that it's not "engine count" (to my surprise, pilots move between Sonia and Lily with no problem), but there must be more categories than the five you listed above.

_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 55
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 3:44:06 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 5692
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
JuanG,

Were those 80+ experience pilots from TRACOM?  Very possible that different algorithm applies to TRACOM as it is a different pool, or to any pilot who is qualified for transfer to TRACOM.  Might be like a chess Grandmaster, once awarded the title it is retained irrespective of subsequent performance decline, so in AE once a pilot becomes a true experten, he can't drop in experience below 80 subsequently.  To drop in experience might adversely impact the algorithms for editor designated training groups.

Alfred

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 56
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 3:49:49 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 900
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

As a general rule, you dispute Alfred at your own risk, but here's a very easy test. Take any single engine Kate pilot and transfer them to a Betty unit. Loses experience every time (above 50 of course). Then move them to a Val. Experience lost again. The same thing happens if you move a Pete pilot into Emily or Mavis. Loses points every time. The latter is *probably* because the game CAN tell the difference between "Float Plane" and "Patrol". For example, you can move a Pete pilot into a Naval Babs Recon, and there's an enormous experience hit, so it's definitely not a case of the game classifying Pete as "Recon".

So I'm willing to believe that it's not "engine count" (to my surprise, pilots move between Sonia and Lily with no problem), but there must be more categories than the five you listed above.


The five 'categories' presented above are just how the interface displays them, not how the game actually handles them.

My theory remains that it tracks the 'type' from the editor, of which there are 13 different codes;


As JF and EW don't seem to be used, that leaves us with 11 actual 'categories'.

Note that this is also why there's no difference moving from 'light bomber' to 'medium bomber', etc., as they are all part of the 'level bomber' group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

JuanG,

Were those 80+ experience pilots from TRACOM? Very possible that different algorithm applies to TRACOM as it is a different pool, or to any pilot who is qualified for transfer to TRACOM. Might be like a chess Grandmaster, once awarded the title it is retained irrespective of subsequent performance decline, so in AE once a pilot becomes a true experten, he can't drop in experience below 80 subsequently. To drop in experience might adversely impact the algorithms for editor designated training groups.

Alfred


None of these were from TRACOM. They were from the A6M2-N unit at Rabaul in the Coral Sea scenario, and moved into either of the A6M2 groups on the map. I used this as I do not have an FF's yet in my PBEM to test with. Likewise the F/FB test was using an RAF Mosquito group in Downfall.

EDIT: Screenshots!

Here are the guys before moving into the A6M2-N group;


And after moving;


This time 6/12 lost experience. I'm going to take a guess and say the F <-> FF transition somehow 'favoured', and either has a chance of not incurring a loss, or the loss % is reduced such that in some cases it fails to be enough to round, hence a 0 loss.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/5/2015 4:57:06 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 57
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 3:57:58 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 5692
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

Alfred


As a general rule, you dispute Alfred at your own risk, but here's a very easy test. Take any single engine Kate pilot and transfer them to a Betty unit. Loses experience every time (above 50 of course). Then move them to a Val. Experience lost again. The same thing happens if you move a Pete pilot into Emily or Mavis. Loses points every time. The latter is *probably* because the game CAN tell the difference between "Float Plane" and "Patrol". For example, you can move a Pete pilot into a Naval Babs Recon, and there's an enormous experience hit, so it's definitely not a case of the game classifying Pete as "Recon".

So I'm willing to believe that it's not "engine count" (to my surprise, pilots move between Sonia and Lily with no problem), but there must be more categories than the five you listed above.


Under the hood there is always the 14 aircraft classes. It is just that due to screen real estate issues I suspect, only 5 aggregated classes are visually presented to the player in the pilot General Reserve. Pilots sent there from a TB, DB and HB are aggregated together for visual display purposes under the bomber filter. But those pilots are still tracked based on their last assigned class. They remain a TB, DB and HB pilot even though aggregated as a "bomber" pilot.

As I said, when originally shipped, only 4 categories were visually presented to the player. One of the earlier patches extended this to 5. Whether michaelm stopped at 5 instead of the 14 could be for several reasons. Lack of screen real estate is high up on the suspects as he (and wdolson) has often mentioned that screen space is at a premium. Another highly likely suspect is the inordinate effort involved in redesigning the screens (on a pixel by pixel basis as I understand it). Not to forget that there may well be some algorithm complexity involved.

Alfred

Alfred

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 58
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/5/2015 5:18:01 PM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline
Well I'm still not seeing the behavior you are describing. When I manually select a pilot who was trained in a different type a plane I see the experience drop. But I DO NOT see it when I use the release pilot button. I've tested this multiple times with different plane types and even selecting from a different pilot pool. Something isn't adding up if this isn't what the rest of you are seeing...

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 59
RE: Pilot Training Automation Tool (PTAT) - 5/6/2015 2:49:07 AM   
Kull


Posts: 1822
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Well I'm still not seeing the behavior you are describing. When I manually select a pilot who was trained in a different type a plane I see the experience drop. But I DO NOT see it when I use the release pilot button. I've tested this multiple times with different plane types and even selecting from a different pilot pool. Something isn't adding up if this isn't what the rest of you are seeing...


Here's exactly what I did in the tests mentioned above. Opened the Kate unit pilot screen, changed the "To Pool" setting to "Reserve", and then clicked the "Release pilot" button (Most Experienced). The 79 Experience pilot immediately moved to the Reserve Pool. Next I clicked on a Betty unit, changed the "From..." setting to "Reserve (##)", and then clicked "Get New Pilot" button. The quantity of pilots ticked up by one, and when I opened the "Pilots" screen, the former Kate pilot was there, with experience now at 76.

This happens EVERY time, and in the test I described in the earlier post, the same occurred with Float to Patrol and Float to Recon.

_____________________________


(in reply to Sangeli)
Post #: 60
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