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Does PD actually shoot at missiles?

 
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Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/3/2015 4:57:08 AM   
mordachai


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I can't see it happening... and the description text says that they shoot down fighters.

But they're usually attached to missiles as a prereq - implying that they are indeed anti-missile as well.

Can anyone confirm or deny that they *actually* shoot down incoming missiles? (and if so, how can you tell?!)
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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/3/2015 8:29:23 AM   
Bingeling

 

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Why should they shoot down missiles? You say the description says they only shoot at fighters, so I would assume that is the case. Having them shoot at missiles would also make missiles as weapons worthless at the later part of the game.

(in reply to mordachai)
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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/3/2015 9:02:07 AM   
feygan

 

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Missiles & torpedoes are simply another type of projectile like laser blasts/beams etc. They are not stopped by anything with regards to making contact with a target, other than the target flying away at high speed beyond the projectile range. PD is sadly a lacking feature of DW as the combat often degenerates into a very action gamey experience.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/4/2015 12:45:55 AM   
mordachai


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yeah, that seems to be the case. I can clearly see fighters being shot at & taking PD damage. But missiles just either hit, or miss, but are not shot down.

Fighters aren't worthless just because of PD. That changes their dynamic, and it's part of the trade-offs when choosing that weapon-platform. Missiles would be the same.

SOTS had various energy torpedoes that could have their damage reduced by shooting at them, and missiles that had to be 100% destroyed to stop them. It was an interesting dynamic, and didn't make missiles worthless, just worth less in some circumstances (your enemy has to reduce his offensive capability (or other defenses) to "waste" space on PD - so that complicates the picture further - trades & balances).

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/5/2015 5:20:59 PM   
Spidey


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In fairness, SOTS missiles (and long range weapons in general) really are an entirely different animal. It wasn't that hard to maintain range in SOTS and it was pretty central to some of the less armor-intensive races. Slugging it out, Hiver-style, wasn't really the best way to get bang for your buck with Liir or Morrigi, as far as I recall.

In DW it's fairly hard to properly kite enemies to begin with and missiles are already rather weak as a weapon type. Having PD target missiles would make it even worse.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/5/2015 6:42:08 PM   
feygan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

In fairness, SOTS missiles (and long range weapons in general) really are an entirely different animal. It wasn't that hard to maintain range in SOTS and it was pretty central to some of the less armor-intensive races. Slugging it out, Hiver-style, wasn't really the best way to get bang for your buck with Liir or Morrigi, as far as I recall.

In DW it's fairly hard to properly kite enemies to begin with and missiles are already rather weak as a weapon type. Having PD target missiles would make it even worse.


If you design your ships with a speed that exceeds that of the enemy ships then missiles are a win factor. You simply leave the ship at maximum range and poke holes in the enemy ships. Having no form of missile PD is a major flaw with DW.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/6/2015 7:15:14 AM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan

If you design your ships with a speed that exceeds that of the enemy ships then missiles are a win factor. You simply leave the ship at maximum range and poke holes in the enemy ships. Having no form of missile PD is a major flaw with DW.


I agree in principle, but you need a lot of missile power to actually destroy enemies before they run. Most of the time you're simply going to be dancing about until the enemy cuts his losses and runs and that's assuming the AI doesn't mess up and allows your ships to drift too close and get shot to pieces. Torpedoes can do largely the same job while being much more effective at close range and way better against armor, which almost makes it an objectively bad choice to invest in missile research.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/6/2015 10:00:34 AM   
feygan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey


quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan

If you design your ships with a speed that exceeds that of the enemy ships then missiles are a win factor. You simply leave the ship at maximum range and poke holes in the enemy ships. Having no form of missile PD is a major flaw with DW.


I agree in principle, but you need a lot of missile power to actually destroy enemies before they run. Most of the time you're simply going to be dancing about until the enemy cuts his losses and runs and that's assuming the AI doesn't mess up and allows your ships to drift too close and get shot to pieces. Torpedoes can do largely the same job while being much more effective at close range and way better against armor, which almost makes it an objectively bad choice to invest in missile research.



The very fact you point out torpedoes do the same thing but are much more effective only strengthens the argument for some kind of PD missile defence. I get the DW splits missiles & torpedoes but they are exactly the same thing, a slow moving projectile of large mass (when compared to a bullet or beam). In all other 4x games missiles have always been a great long arm tool, but they always have to be used tactically by taking into account just how many will make it through a PD screen. In DW you can forget all that and just slap an engine onto the end of a giant box full of photon tubes to get an instant win.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/6/2015 4:32:30 PM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feygan

The very fact you point out torpedoes do the same thing but are much more effective only strengthens the argument for some kind of PD missile defence. I get the DW splits missiles & torpedoes but they are exactly the same thing, a slow moving projectile of large mass (when compared to a bullet or beam). In all other 4x games missiles have always been a great long arm tool, but they always have to be used tactically by taking into account just how many will make it through a PD screen. In DW you can forget all that and just slap an engine onto the end of a giant box full of photon tubes to get an instant win.


I don't see how making missiles less effective at what they do is going to strengthen the argument for researching missile tech, as opposed to torp or beam tech. You could nerf torps more than missiles with point defense but then they'd both be clearly inferior to beam weapons. Sure, range is nice but consider armor-penetration. As it is, you already need quite a few hits per armor plate to penetrate with missiles. If half the missiles don't even make it through then that becomes even harder and a repair bot might actually be capable of keeping up the pace. Meanwhile, top tier phasers break a plate per salvo and point blank titan beams aren't significantly slower either.

That aside, you're quite right that the basic premise for missiles and torpedoes is the same. They're both slow, guided weapons that trade DPS for range. That doesn't mean they can't have different key abilities, though. Such as torps being energy blobs that go blammo on impact but lose damage over distance whereas missiles are less hurtful but also more reliable. The main issue I have is simply that they're already underpowered relative to beams and torps.

Edit: And it's easy to say that torps are superior but that's more a function of their flexibility than because they actually outdamage everything. At close range a beam-based ship is going to do more DPS but for the most part this never becomes relevant, because torps will do enough to blow up most of the poorly designed AI ships very quickly and will at the same time work brilliantly for base bombardment. And obviously torps enable the missile kite strategy against any ship that isn't faster, destroying the target while taking zero damage.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 4/6/2015 5:50:05 PM >

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/20/2015 2:09:37 PM   
ReadeB

 

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Could we start with having PD fire at assualt shuttles? That would make my capture fleets less effective and potentially pirates as well. OTOH Once your shields are down, assualt shuttles may be the least of your worries.

There are lots of ways to make missiles more interesting:
Increase:
1. Make the yields much higher, with area affects. (Antimatter warheads)
2. Give damaged targets a negative to-hit penalty due to flash/emp.
3. Deliver high-radiation penetrating warheads disabling internal components.
4. Deliver robotic assualt teams disabling as above.

Decrease:
1. PD intercept
2. Fighter Interceptor intercept
3. Active countermeasures with area affect warheads
4. Limited ammo

Lots of options.

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RE: Does PD actually shoot at missiles? - 4/20/2015 9:16:16 PM   
mordachai


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Yes! PD should definitely shoot down incoming assault pods! And interceptors should intercept assault pods (and fighters - I assume it does intercept other fighters!)

(in reply to ReadeB)
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