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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released)

 
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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/7/2018 3:02:10 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@MrsWargamer: I do not see a principal reason why real time strategy game can't be converted to a WEGO turn based system easily, if designed for that from the beginning. You may ask where the advantage lies. I see two points, first, some people are quick in mind, some slow, some meticulously, some play their turns quick. People like me who are slow and meticulously for most areas can't follow a real time game while keeping a satisfactory quality (meaning playing good) at the same time.
Second, in multiplayer both sides need to be online at the same time for real time games, but not for WEGO games.

A real time game that can also be played as WEGO may be unconventional, but I believe it can work.

Agree about graphics, my order of importance is Game mechanics (plausible, consistent and without too many exceptions, not exploitable) > well thought out GUI (less clickwork, good information presentation) and game stability > historical OOBs > graphics and historical eye candy like unit insignias



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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/7/2018 3:28:03 PM   
Capitaine

 

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My observation/philosophy: The entire point of wargames was and is to create order out of chaos. While real war is highly unpredictable and chaotic, a wargame allows players to understand the principles involved in all phases of warfare and to control them intelligently. Wargames were never intended to "recreate real war". And those trying to replicate that effect in wargames are doomed to fail.

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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/7/2018 9:27:49 PM   
daft

 

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Well then, that settles it. Glad we never had du endure anything even remotely similar to RtM then. I'll take my dream game somewhere else.

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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/9/2018 1:48:49 AM   
wodin


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Me too

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

Raising the dead here. I still think of RtM from time to time. Or rather what it could have been, and I feel that hasn't really been done yet. Maybe Command Ops comes closest but ton a whole different scale. I do like the idea of managing the broad strokes and having you subordinates set up much of the rest. And with todays tech you could fill most of any "decision void" adding in political aspects much in the same way as Decisive Campaigns. I feel that both tactical and strategic games today tend to become a bit too fiddly and details focused for my tastes (I'm getting old!). Road to Moscow at least looked like it could fill a void even today. I think my "perfect" war game would be a real-time game where you could essentially start as a company commander and work you way up from there. Being a small cog in a massive machinery controlled by the AI. And if you start or work your wayup all the way to the top, AI is there support your ideas and execute your plans, leaving you to focus on the battle plan.



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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/9/2018 4:18:58 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Me too

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

Raising the dead here. I still think of RtM from time to time. Or rather what it could have been, and I feel that hasn't really been done yet. Maybe Command Ops comes closest but ton a whole different scale. I do like the idea of managing the broad strokes and having you subordinates set up much of the rest. And with todays tech you could fill most of any "decision void" adding in political aspects much in the same way as Decisive Campaigns. I feel that both tactical and strategic games today tend to become a bit too fiddly and details focused for my tastes (I'm getting old!). Road to Moscow at least looked like it could fill a void even today. I think my "perfect" war game would be a real-time game where you could essentially start as a company commander and work you way up from there. Being a small cog in a massive machinery controlled by the AI. And if you start or work your wayup all the way to the top, AI is there support your ideas and execute your plans, leaving you to focus on the battle plan.



Can you please explain to me the value in having an AI subordinate play a game for you? This is the problem with all real time games: They're either unplayable because you're constantly too overwhelmed to manage the game properly; you have to pause the game to issue "orders"; or you have to assign management to some AI subordinate. Why not just make a turn-based game then? Then you can do the supposedly enjoyable management yourself without all the hassles?

I just don't get the connection to what would be enjoyable in such exercises.

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Post #: 35
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 12:11:39 PM   
wodin


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Tough question:)

I suppose I want to give the orders but just like real life how those orders turn out will depend on the commanders and officers of the units sent into battle.

This is a feature I'd like no matter the mechanic for turns (WEGO preferred, then turn based as for real time only the first few Close Combat games and Graviteam series can I deal with in realtime).

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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 12:40:39 PM   
Capitaine

 

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I guess that's it. But I find the player agency in actually moving the units to be the essence of wargaming. Your scenario appears to be more of a "command simulator" which, while not an absurd pursuit, nevertheless has never been something I've been interested in experiencing. If it were a military officer training exercise I guess it would have more purpose. But wargames have always been about moving your own units the way you see fit (YOU recreate history by assuming total command -- within certain realistic constraints).

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Post #: 37
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 4:34:32 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I suppose I want to give the orders but just like real life how those orders turn out will depend on the commanders and officers of the units sent into battle.

I can think of couple games that match that:
Combat Mission series
Rules of Engagement (at least the original)

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Post #: 38
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 6:07:28 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

I guess that's it. But I find the player agency in actually moving the units to be the essence of wargaming. Your scenario appears to be more of a "command simulator" which, while not an absurd pursuit, nevertheless has never been something I've been interested in experiencing. If it were a military officer training exercise I guess it would have more purpose. But wargames have always been about moving your own units the way you see fit (YOU recreate history by assuming total command -- within certain realistic constraints).


Is the act of moving your units really the essence of wargaming? Player agency comes in many forms and can be surrounded by different sorts of constraints that can be both historical and ahistorical. This is obviously highly subjective, and I suppose that is why we differ in what we see as the essence of wargaming.

Yes, in many ways it would be a command simulator with the ability to intervene perhaps, for those that like that sort of control. It would certainly be different from the War in the Wests as you possibly wouldn't have extreme control of the totality of your sides logistical machine. Yet player agency exists much in the same way as it would in real life, or quite possibly expanded beyond that depending on how it would fit in from a game perspective. Influencing people up the chain of command in various ways, connections, what have you. So yes, in many ways more of a simulator than "wargame" in that sense.

Also, none of this threatens the existence of the types of games we already have. Not everything has to conform to the standards, all of the time. I see much of the same in subsims of yesteryear. Always a focus on the MACHINE rather than the experience of being in command of a submarine. There's a difference in fidelity, and both are valid and worthwile designs in my opinion.

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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 6:10:23 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I suppose I want to give the orders but just like real life how those orders turn out will depend on the commanders and officers of the units sent into battle.

I can think of couple games that match that:
Combat Mission series
Rules of Engagement (at least the original)


Hmmm... Not sure I agree on Combat Mission. It's very hands on in the sense that even as a battalion CO you need to get down to the squad level to conduct proper attacks for example. Yes, the AI reacts to events and experience and skill is a parameter, but you can't really feed the system a set of parameters and see it execute a co-ordinated attack with scouts etc. But I get your point.

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Post #: 40
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 6:41:20 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

Rules of Engagement (at least the original)

I feel a need to elaborate this. Game is tactical scale space combat sim/strategy in real time, very similar to Starfleet Command series. However, allied ships have much of difference between their respective "personalities": some act exactly as player commands, some others don't give a damn and act as they please.

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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Post #: 41
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 6:44:49 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

Rules of Engagement (at least the original)

I feel a need to elaborate this. Game is tactical scale space combat sim/strategy in real time, very similar to Starfleet Command series. However, allied ships have much of difference between their respective "personalities": some act exactly as player commands, some others don't give a damn and act as they please.


Ahhh... Never played it. Kind of like the sound of that. Getting a Pattonesque space cowboy as a subordinate. :D

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Post #: 42
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/11/2018 10:08:52 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daft


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

I guess that's it. But I find the player agency in actually moving the units to be the essence of wargaming. Your scenario appears to be more of a "command simulator" which, while not an absurd pursuit, nevertheless has never been something I've been interested in experiencing. If it were a military officer training exercise I guess it would have more purpose. But wargames have always been about moving your own units the way you see fit (YOU recreate history by assuming total command -- within certain realistic constraints).


Is the act of moving your units really the essence of wargaming? Player agency comes in many forms and can be surrounded by different sorts of constraints that can be both historical and ahistorical. This is obviously highly subjective, and I suppose that is why we differ in what we see as the essence of wargaming.

Yes, in many ways it would be a command simulator with the ability to intervene perhaps, for those that like that sort of control. It would certainly be different from the War in the Wests as you possibly wouldn't have extreme control of the totality of your sides logistical machine. Yet player agency exists much in the same way as it would in real life, or quite possibly expanded beyond that depending on how it would fit in from a game perspective. Influencing people up the chain of command in various ways, connections, what have you. So yes, in many ways more of a simulator than "wargame" in that sense.

Also, none of this threatens the existence of the types of games we already have. Not everything has to conform to the standards, all of the time. I see much of the same in subsims of yesteryear. Always a focus on the MACHINE rather than the experience of being in command of a submarine. There's a difference in fidelity, and both are valid and worthwile designs in my opinion.

Yes. I stand by my statement. I've been playing board and computer wargames since 1974 and virtually every one has involved moving your units. At least wargames designed to be played solo or between two people. I don't know if you're new to all this, but having wild ideas about reinventing the wheel in wargaming hasn't met with profitable results in most cases. Name some real examples where you don't move your units?

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Post #: 43
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/12/2018 7:25:12 AM   
daft

 

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No, I will not, because I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You've been doing this since '74 apparently, so why would I try to take away your enjoyment of a particular set of game mechanics? That would only end in frustration, so there is no need to stand by anything because I'm not here to take that away from you. For me personally, the essence of wargaming is not simply moving your units. It is much more than that. Secondly, I'm not even arguing that you shouldn't be able to move your units. The mechanics surrounding movement of said units might be different from what you are thinking of, but nothing I've said (I think anyway) even hints at the player not being able to move your units.

So again, I didn't resurrect this thread in order to tell you that you are having fun the wrong way. You are more than welcome to enjoy games and game mechanics any way you want.

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Post #: 44
RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/12/2018 1:34:35 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Yes, well thank you for not addressing any point I was making. You don't seem to want to address the quandary of a wargame which doesn't involve a player moving units, and I can guess why. This isn't "my" means of enjoyment, it's a fact. And your reply demonstrates that.

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RE: Road to Moscow game (never released) - 6/12/2018 6:08:19 PM   
daft

 

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You're welcome.

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