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New Model Indian Army - 3/29/2015 4:47:56 PM   
Symon


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Ok, we did the fixes people found for us, particularly India. Looking at Indian units is like trying to decipher a nest of furiously copulating snakes. Woof !! We came up with a different paradigm. Indian units are presently nerfed in terms of experience and morale. That’s ok, except that’s not quite the complete answer. The early TOE/OOB guys did a fabulous job working with what they had, but several years of experience with the game, as played, suggests a different model.

The British Army in India was not a divisional organization. It was organized in terms of Area Commands, each of which would have several Districts under command. These would cover several sub-districts which most OOB people show as Brigades, but which were not. A sub-district would likely be commanded by a Brigadier. But this is a Rank, and not a reflection on the force. FX, the Peshawar sub-district was almost division sized in its component units.

When making divisions, the British Army in India simply grabbed a handful of battalions (regiments) and added engineers, signals, artillery and AAA as they were available. That’s why there’s so many different kinds of Indian divisions; because of what came up from the grab-bag for that go-around. And also why Indian divisions morph into every conceivable configuration over time. But why do it that way?

We organized the British Indian Army into Brigades. No more divisions. BIA Brigades are skilled and motivated. A fully formed IJ division will have an advantage over 3 BIA brigades (plus support), as it probably should, but H-2-H, an Indian Brigade should be able to clean IJ clock, as indeed happened in many cases where they were given their head.

So the nerf is gone, but they can’t make divisions, but they are as good as they were. All things considered, I think it’s a reasonable approach. Only them that went out of India can do so (and a few others that I like), but Budda help you if you ever try to do the Indian invasion gambit.

[ed] should have mentioned, this is for the BBSM paradigm, which doesn't have many divisions to begin with. A standard campaign game doesn't have enough TOE slots to do what we are doing.


< Message edited by Symon -- 4/8/2015 4:37:19 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/8/2015 3:35:26 PM   
Symon


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Something from Kereguelen back in 2006 when we were first thinking about AE sparked my memory. A very nice appreciation and one that we will follow. Obviously some tweaks are in order, but the basics are a very nice framework on which to hang the Indian Army units.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kereguelen
Hi,
some thoughts about the Indian Army and proposals for a new Indian OOB:

The main problem with India in the game seems to be that only the units that fought in Burma and/or were stationed on Ceylon are included and do mostly arrive at the time they were send to the Burma theatre or when they arrived on Ceylon. This makes it quite easy for any Japanese player to actually invade India. While this still should be a possibility, actually this would have been much harder in history because there were many more units in India which are currently not included in the game. Currently it is even nearly impossible for the Allied player to send the units that historically went to Malaya (18th British Division, 44th and 45th Indian Brigades), to Singapore because this would leave India nearly undefended even against small Japanese raids.

Another problem with the Indian OOB is that the composition of the Indian Divisions changed alot during the course of the war because generally British and Indian brigades and divisions had no “organic” combat troops (battalions were not permanently attached to a certain brigade, brigades not to a certain division and so on) as most other nations. This leads to much confusion. I think the best solution would be to delete most of the Indian divisions we currently have in the game and instead make their brigades and artillery regiments available in the game (there were never enough Field Regiments available for all divisions that fought in Burma). By doing this we would have a more historic Indian OOB, give the Allied player some more choices at the start of the game and still have the possibilty of a Japanese attack on India in the game.

However, it would be necessary to alter the OOB of the Indian brigades somewhat (by deleting the 12 18pdr howitzer batteries that historically did not exist in Indian and British brigades). A more correct OOB for Indian Brigades would be: 108 Indian Rifle Squads (3 Rifle Battalions), 9 Indian Eng. Squads, 3 Motor Engineer Squads, 18 3inch Mortars, 18 2pdr ATG, 133(?) Supply Squads (Engineer companies were not organic to brigades, but there were plenty of Indian engineers available). The Indian divisions that should be kept should have 2 Field Regiments (with 48 18pdr/25pdr howitzers) and either 1 LAA/AT Regiment (with 24 2pdr/6pdr, 18 20mm and 18 40mm AA guns) or 1 AT Regiment (with 48 2pdr/6pdr) included in their structure). Division with LAA/AT would have: 324 Indian Rifle Squads, 27 Indian Engineer Squads, 9 Motor Engineer Squads, 54 3inch Mortars, 78 2pdr ATG, 18 20mm AA, 18 40mm AA and lots of Supply Squads (I have not included the Divisional HQ Defense Bn. that was included in most Indian divisions but not existing in most British divisions and because 40mm Bofors AA guns were scarce in the Far East [that is, they were used in LAA Rgts], maybe the AA component of the division should have only 20mm AA instead of the 40mm).

There were 11 Frontier Brigades (each with at least 3 battalions) guarding the NW frontier, but these should not be included because in the game there is nothing for them to guard.


Indian Infantry Divisions:
Completely delete 3rd, 14th, 17th, 26th and 44th Indian Divisions from the OOB. Keep 5th, 7th, 19th, 20th and 25th Indian Divisions. Now we have:
5th Indian Division (arriving 15th June 1943) with 9th, 123rd and 161st Indian Brigades, 4th and 28th Field Regiments, 56th LAA/AT Rgt incorporated.
7th Indian Division (arriving 15th October 1942) with 33rd, 89th, 114th Indian Brigades, 136th and 139th Field Regiments RA, 24th LAA/AT Regiment incorporated.
19th Indian Division (arriving 15th March 1942) with 62nd, 64th and 98th Indian Brigades, 115th and 134th Field Regiments, 69th LAA/AT Regiment (amalgameted with 33rd LAA/AT Regiment) incorporated.
20th Indian Division (arriving 15th June 1942) with 32nd, 80th, 100th Indian Brigades, 9th and 114th Field Regiments, 55th LAA/AT Regiment (amalgameted with 111th AT Regiment) incorporated. Because 51st and 53rd Indian Brigades moved to 25th Indian Division this structure seems appropiate when 25th Division is included.
25th Indian Division (arriving 15th August 1942) with 51st, 53rd, 74th Indian Brigades, 8th and 27th Field Regiments, 7th Indian AT Regiment incorporated.

Indian Infantry Brigades: 7th December 1941:

In Malaya:
6th, 8th, 12th, 15th, 22nd, 28th Indian Brigades as in the game.

In Burma:
13th and 16th Indian Brigades as in the game.

In India:
36th and 37th Brigades at Chandpur (parts of deleted 14th Indian Division)
44th Brigade at Diamond Harbour
45th Brigade at Calcutta
46th Brigade at Dacca (part of deleted 17th Indian Division)
47th, 48th, 49th Brigades at Hyderabad (parts of deleted 19th Indian Division)
99th Brigade at Jhansi (?); moved to Trincomalee in January 1942

Reinforcements:
1st Indian Brigade 1st May 1942 (from frontier duty at Rawalpindi)
4th Indian Brigade 1st April 1942 (from frontier duty in Waziristan)
23rd Indian Brigade/111th Indian Brigade 15th March 1942 (23rd was later renamed 123rd Brigade and became part of 25th Division, 109th Brigade a short-lived formation with only two battalions that fought in Arakan for some time)
26th Indian Brigade 15th July 1944 (arrived from Iraq)
55th Indian Brigade 15th September 1942 (arrived after fighting vs. the Fakir of Ipi, formed earlier)
63rd Indian Brigade 15th January 1942 (at Delhi; formed December 1941)
71st Indian Brigade 1st March 1942 (formed from existing battalions at Calcutta)
77th Indian Chindit Brigade 1st January 1943 (actually formed in June 1942, but not ready before)
111th Indian Chindit Brigade 1st July 1943 (actually formed 30th March 1943, but not ready before)
268th Indian Brigade 1st October 1942 (formed under 43rd Indian Armoured Division)
50th Indian Para Brigade 1st February 1944 (actually formed much earlier but trained a long time and was used for internal security at Delhi)

Existing garrisons 7th December 1941 (not complete and not including frontier garrisons and battalions that were used to guard POW camps). Generally these locations retained garrisons during the war (even if the garrison battalions changed). 25th and 26th Battalions of the regiments were always “garrison” battalions.

Bombay: 2 Battalions (26th/4th Bombay Grenadiers and 25th/10th Baluch Regiment)
Karachi: 3 Battalions (15th/10th Baluch Regiment, 16th/14th Punjab Regiment, 4th/7th Gurkha Rifles)
Madras: 3 Battalions (18th/5th Mahratta Lt. Infantry, 25th/9th Jat Regiment, 25th/12th Frontier Force Rifles)
Dacca: 1 Battalion (25th/18th Royal Garwhal Rifles)
Bangalore: 1 Battalion (9th/9th Jat Regiment)

Field Regiments (Royal Artillery):
These are regiments that were (at some times) included in the deleted divisions. All remained in India until 1946.

On 7th December 1941 5th, 88th, 122nd 137th and 155th Field Regiments were in Malaya.

51st arrived February 1942 on Ceylon together with 16th British Brigade.
60th arrived March 1942 on Ceylon or at Karachi with the remainder of 70th British Division.
130th arrived May 1942 at Karachi (was included in deleted 14th Indian Division)
158th arrived May 1942 from frontier duty at Nowshera
160th arrived March 1942 from Quetta, may be made available 7th December 1941?
162nd formed April 1942 from existing batteries on Ceylon
18th arrived November 1942 at Karachi (with 43rd Indian Armoured Division)
9th arrived 15th January 1943 from Madagascar
123rd arrived August 1942 at Karachi (with 32nd Indian Armoured Division)
129th arrived August 1942 at Karachi (was included in deleted 14th Indian Division)
178th arrived June 1943 at Karachi, should be available from August 1943 as an Assault Field Regiment with SP-Artillery.

Medium Regiments (RA):
1st arrived July 1942 at Karachi
6th at Campbellpore 7th December 1941
8th arrived Karachi May 1943 from frontier duty



< Message edited by Symon -- 4/8/2015 4:37:53 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 4:07:42 PM   
Symon


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Right now, the New Model BIA is part of our BBSM Scen development toolkit. Cromwell would be so pleased (except for the BBSM part). Thinking of porting some of the Indian stuff into DBB. Matt thinks I'm insane and he's probably right. MO and Jeremy like it because it will make things harder. I'm torn between two poles.

Oh, wait, my arm is moving .. ka click .. was that a telemarketer on the cell phone? Oh please stop me before I do something I will regret .. Indian brigades .. Dogras, Sikhs, Punjabis, oh my .. chicken tikka masalla and lamb vindaloo .. and kamitha and kheer .. please stop me before I have to cook again.

Just say 'when' if you want Don't want New Model Indians in nominal DBB, just say so. Ciao. JWE

< Message edited by Symon -- 4/10/2015 5:10:23 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 4:22:23 PM   
DConn

 

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We want them!

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 8:22:22 PM   
Skyros


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More please!

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 10:12:41 PM   
JeffroK


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A more correct OOB for Indian Brigades would be: 108 Indian Rifle Squads (3 Rifle Battalions), 9 Indian Eng. Squads, 3 Motor Engineer Squads, 18 3inch Mortars, 18 2pdr ATG, 133(?) Supply Squads (Engineer companies were not organic to brigades, but there were plenty of Indian engineers available).

At start of game, just about every Indian Brigade included a British Battalion and 2 Indian/Gurkha Battalions so the mix of Rifle Squads needs to change. As the war continued a few Brigades lost their British Contingent but the majority remained.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 4/10/2015 11:18:03 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 10:21:28 PM   
JeffroK


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Frontier Brigades

Bannu Bde 4 Jammu & Kashmir, 5/15 Punjab, 6/6 Rajputana Rifles, 6/8 Punjab, 7 Jammu & Kashmir, 7/1 Punjab
Gardai Bde Formed 15/10/44 from 75 Bde
Khojak Bde disbanded 15/5/44 3/4 Gurkha Rifles, 6/7 Rajput, 7/19 Hyderabad,8 Medium Rgt
Kohat Bde 1/16 Punjab, 7/13 Frontier Force Rifles, Bairab Nath Rgt, 21 Mtn Rgt
Landi Kotal Bde 3/6 Gurkha Rifles, 5/10 Baluch, 6/11 Sikh, 6/19 Hyderabad, 7/12 Frontier Force, 8/11 Sikh, 8/8 Punjab
Noshera Bde 1 Lincolnshire, 7/14 Punjab, Purnao Gorakh Rgt,
Peshawar Bde 2 Duke of Wellingtons Rgt, 2/2 Punjab, 4/15 Punjab, 6/18 Royal Garwhal Rifles, 26 Mtn Rgt
Quetta Bde ??? At 3/9/39 it had 1 Lancashire Fusiliers, 1/10 & 2/10 Gurkha Rifles
Razmak Bde 1 Queens Royal Rgt, 1 Warwickshire Rgt, 1/10 Gurkha Rifles, 2 Kings own Scots Borderers, 3/1 Punjab, 4/17 Dogra, 6/5 Mahratta, 7/11 Sikh, 20 Mtn Rgt
Thal Bde 2 Patiala, 6/10 baluch, 6/17 Dogra, Shamsheer Dal Rgt
Wana Bde 2/13 Frontier Force Rifles, 3/6 Rajputana Rifles, 4/14 Punjab, 6/12 Frontier Force Rgt
Zhob Bde 3/2 Gurkha Rifles,6/2 Punjab, 8/1 Punjab, Shri Nath Rgt


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/10/2015 10:25:41 PM   
JeffroK


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14 ARMY (BURMA)
Jan – July 1944

XV CORPS
Corps Armour Group
25 Dragoon Gds, 1 coy 3/4 Bombay Grenadiers, 81 West African Recce Rgt, 3 Gwalior Lancers ISF (less horsed wing)

Corps Artillery
6 Med, 8 HAA, 5 LAA Rgts 5 Mahratta AT Rgt IA

Corps Infantry
12 Frontier Force Rgt MG Bn, 79 Indian Infantry Company
3 SS Brigade 5 Cdo, 44 RM Cdo

5 INDIAN DIVISION
4 Fd Rgt, 28 Jungle Rgt IA, 56 LAA/AT Rgt, 24 Indian Mtn Rgt IA
Div HQ Bn 3/2 Punjab
9 BDE 2 West Yorkshire, 3/9 Jats, 3/14 Punjab
123 BDE 2 Suffolks, 2/1 Punjab, 1/17 Dogra
161 BDE 4 QORWK, 1/1 Punjab, 4/7 Rajput

7 INDIAN DIVISON
136 Fd Rgt, 139 Jungle Rgt IA., 24 LAA/AA Rgt, 25 Indian Mtn Rgt IA
Div HQ Bn 1/11 Sikh (swapped with 7/2 Punjab 89 Bde later)
Horsed wing, 3 Gwalior Lancers ISF
33 BDE 1 QRR, 4/15 Punjab, 4/1 Gurkha
89 BDE 2 KOSB, 7/2 Punjab, 4/8 Gurkha
114 BDE 1 SLI, 4/14 Punjab, 4/5 Gurkha

25 INDIAN DIVISION
8 Fd Rgt, 27 Jungle Rgt IA, 5 Fd Rgt IA, 7 LAA/AT Rgt
Div HQ Bn 8/19 Hyderabad
51 BDE 8 Y & L, 17/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 16/10 Baluch
53 BDE 9 Y & L, 2/2 Punjab, 4/18 Royal Garwal Rifles
74 BDE 6 OBLI, 14/10 Baluch, 3/2 Gurkha

26 INDIAN DIVISION
160 Jungle Rgt IA, 30 Mtn Rgt IA, 7 Fd Rgt IA, 1 LAA/AT Rgt
Div HQ Bn 5/9 Jat
4 BDE 1 Wiltshire, 2/13 Frontier Force, 2/7 Rajputana
36 BDE 8/13 Frontier Force, 5/16 Punjab, 1/8 Gurkha
71 BDE 1 Lincolns, 5/1 Punjabs, 1/18 Royal Garwal Rifles

36 BRITISH/INDIAN DIVISION
C Sqn 149 RAC
130 Fd Rgt, 178 Fd Rgt 122 LAA/AT Rgt
Div HQ Bn 1 coy, 2 Manchester Rgt (MG)
29 BDE 1 Royal Scots Fusiliers, 2 Royal Welch Fusiliers, 2 East Lancs. 2 South Lancs.
72 BDE 2 South Wales Borderers, 10 Gloucestershire, 9 Royal Sussex

81 WEST AFRICAN DIVISION
1 WA LAA/AT Rgt, 3, 4 & 6 WA Lt Batteries
11 East African Scout Bn
5 WA BDE 5 Gold Coast, 7 Gold Coast, 8 Gold Coast
6 WA BDE 4 Nigerian, 1 Gambia, 1 Sierra Leone

404 Lines of Communications Area
13 AA Bde
1 Bihar Rgt, 7/16 Punjab, 2 Baroda ISF, 1 Tripura ISF

IV CORPS

CORPS TROOPS
Corps Infantry 9 Jat MG Bn,15/11 Sikh, Chin Bn (Burmese), 3 Assam Rifles, 4 Assam Rifles, Kalibahadur(Nepal)Rgt,1 coy Gwalior Infantry ISF

Corps Artillery 8 Med Rgt, 67 HAA RGt, 28 LAA Rgt, 78 LAA Rgt, 16 Punjab AT Rgt

17 INDIAN (Light) DIV
21 Mtn Rgt IA, 29 Mtn Rgt IA, 129 Lt Fd Rgt , 82 LAA/AT Rgt
Div Support Bn 1 West Yorkshire
Div HQ Bn 4/12 Frontier Force Rgt
Div Recce Bn 7/10 Baluch
48 BDE 9 Border, 2/5 Gurkha, 1/7 Gurkha
63 BDE 1/3 Gurkha, 1/4 Gurkha, 1/10 Gurkha

20 INDIAN DIV
9 Fd Rgt, 114 Jungle Rgt IA, 23 Mtn Rgt IA, 55 LAA/AT Rgt
Div HQ Bn 4/3 Madras Rgt
32 BDE 1 Northamptons, 9/14 Punjab, 3/8 Gurkha
80 BDE 1 Devons, 9/12 Frontier Force, 3/1 Gurkha
100 BDE 2 Border, 14/13 Frontier Force, 4/10 Gurkha

23 INDIAN DIV
158 Jungle Rgt IA, 3 Fd Rgt IA, 28 Mtn Rgt IA, 2 LAA/AT Rgt
Div HQ Bn 2/19 Hyderabad
1 BDE 1 Seaforth, 1/16 Punjab, 1 Patiala Inf
37 BDE 3/3 Gurkha, 3/5 Gurkha, 3/10 Gurkha
49 BDE 4/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 6/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 5/6 Rajputana

50 PARA BDE 152 Indian Para Bn, 153 Gurkha Para Bn
254 TANK BDE 3 Carabineers, 7 Cavalry, C Sqn 150 RAC, 1 Coy ¾ Bombay Grenadiers


XXXIII CORPS

CORPS TROOPS
149 RAC (-1 Sqn), det 150 RAC, 11 Cavalry (Arm Car) Rgt, 45 Cavalry (Lt Tanks)
1 Burma, 1 Chamar, 1 Assam Rgt, Shere(Nepal) Bn, Malindra Dal Rgt
1 Med Rgt, 50 LAA/AT Rgt, 24 Mtn Rgt IA

2 BRITISH INF DIV
10 Fd Rgt, 16 Fd Rgt, 99 Fd Rgt, 100 LAA/AT Rgt
2 Recce Bn
2 Manchester Rgt (MG) less 1 coy
4 BDE 1 Royal Scots, 2 Royal Norfolk, 1/8 East Lanc Fusiliers
5 BDE 7 Worcestershire Rgt, 2 Dorsets, 1 QO Cameron Highlanders
6 BDE 1 Royal Welch Fusiliers, 1 Royal Berkshire, 2 Durham Lt Inf
10, 16 & 99 Fd Rgts, 100 LAA/AT Rgt, 2 Recce Rgt

268 BDE 2/4 Bombay Grenadiers, 5/4 Bombay Grenadiers, 17/7 Rajputana
LUSHAI 1 Royal Bn, Jat Rgt, 8/13 Frontier Force, 7/14 Punjab, 1 Bihar


CHINDIT FORCE (3 INDIAN INF DIVISION)
3 WA BDE 6 Nigerian, 7 Nigerian, 12 Nigerian
14 BDE 1 Bedforshire & Hertfordshire, 7 Leicestershire, 2 Black Watch, 2 York & Lancs
16 BDE 2 Queens R R, 2 Leicestershire, 45 Recce Rgt
23 BDE 2 Duke of Wellingtons, 4 Border, 1 Essex
77 BDE 1 Kings, 1 Lancashire Fusiliers, 1 Sth Staffords, 3/6 Gurkha
111 BDE 2 Kings Own, 1 Camerons, ¾ Gurkha, 4/9 Gurkha



< Message edited by JeffK -- 4/10/2015 11:29:30 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/11/2015 3:35:47 PM   
Symon


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That’s nice stuff Jeff. Very close to what we have. Brit battalions are a bit of a pain since they came and went over time; I think we’ll settle for a standard brigade with 1 Br Bn, and a second type with all Indian troops (there were several of these).

Matt got hold of a ton of cool stuff from the old WO records and the Indian MOD. It includes the internal structure and organization of the Animal & Motor Transport divisions (7th, 20th and 23rd) and the structure and organization of the elements of the Light divisions (17th and 39th). Artillery components include the Jungle Field, Lt Mountain, and Lt Field regiments, as well as the Jungle AA/AT and Lt AA/AT establishments.

There was a big internal reorg done to the battalion (regiment) structure in late ‘42/early ’43, after 1st Arakan, so brigades will have to morph along 3 paths; ‘quasi’ std, A&MT, and Light establishments. This will be helpful to the ‘separated’ divisions in that the Div HQ unit can be fleshed out with the defense Bn, recce unit, and a collection of support weaps. It will be able to protect itself.

Some of the internal reorgs get tricky. In the Lt and A&MT establishments, the battalion’s integral AA and AT platoons were replaced by a MMG platoon. In order to maintain an AA and AT capability for a brigade it will be necessary to divvy-up a Jungle or Lt AA/AT rgt (depending) and fold the assets into the infantry component. Once again, there will be a difference between a Lt and an A&MT established unit.

Am torn as to what to do with the units designated ‘recce’. They were standard Lt or A&MT infantry battalions, but without the 3” mortar platoon, or the MMG (AA and/or AT) platoon, and were organized as 3x companies, rather than 4.

An interesting sidebar, here, Jeff, is that, as the Indian units became more “Indian”, the early British units crop up more and more as Div Defense/Reserve units and with a quasi recce establishment – 3 companies but with support platoons (3” mortars and some mix of AA/AT/MG platoons). Perhaps this is how the Brit manpower crunch was accommodated in the Far East Theater?

Anyway, lots of fun things to consider. Any thoughts you may have will be welcome. Ciao. JWE


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/11/2015 11:36:29 PM   
JeffroK


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The Indian Army was even more complicated than the Australin Army!

I also got the email from K that you posted, I think at the time I was thinking that the Indian Army should have been handled as Brigades.

Is it possible:

To create TOE for the various types of Indian Brigades, Std, A&MT, Air-Transportable etc and allocate each Brigade to a type, as they change type they can upgrade to the relevant TOE.
Create Division HQ units which pick up the Art, Def Bns, AT/AA units etc.
Link Brigades to Div HQ so that IFF the player wants to form Divisions he can, if they want to play with Brigades its also possible.

I thank at the time I commented that thew war evolved from fighting with Bn/Bde sized units to Bde/Div and finally to Div/Corps sized battles, something very hard to portray ingame. My plan was also to steal slots from the Soviet Army, lots of space taken up by rarely used forces. (Were some required to remain Soviet??)

Another wierd plan was to create "Dads Army" units in cities. Ranging from 1 Bn equiv to 3 Bn equiv equipped as light infantry with old/obsolete weapons and made static. These would "garrison" the rear and stop towns being occupied by parachute assault by half battalions. Historically these were Local Defence volunteers in OZ, Garrison Bns & Indian State Forces Bns in India. Did the USA have an equivalent? (Non Federalized NG Troops?)



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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/11/2015 11:57:26 PM   
JeffroK


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Some old threads
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1365438
http://www.amazon.com/Mark-Bevis/e/B001K80GIW/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1428796695&sr=1-2-ent
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1308631
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1264376

Some of these relate to WITP days

< Message edited by JeffK -- 4/12/2015 1:05:12 AM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/12/2015 4:38:32 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Is it possible:
To create TOE for the various types of Indian Brigades, Std, A&MT, Air-Transportable etc and allocate each Brigade to a type, as they change type they can upgrade to the relevant TOE.

Yes indeed. That's what we are thinking, and have some of the paths defined already.
quote:

Create Division HQ units which pick up the Art, Def Bns, AT/AA units etc..

Sort of. The Arty will be as separate regts. The AA/AT will likely fold into the brigade structure with leftovers represented as separate regts. Div HQ will have the DivDef Bn, LtRecce Bn, some Pioneers and some Lt AA.
quote:

Link Brigades to Div HQ so that IFF the player wants to form Divisions he can, if they want to play with Brigades its also possible..

Only the formal standard ones. The others will remain as brigade/component units, just like we did with the Australians.
quote:

I thank at the time I commented that thew war evolved from fighting with Bn/Bde sized units to Bde/Div and finally to Div/Corps sized battles, something very hard to portray ingame. My plan was also to steal slots from the Soviet Army, lots of space taken up by rarely used forces. (Were some required to remain Soviet??)..

Quite true, but in the organizational sense. Tactically, it was the same brigade level conflict that all conflicts are, at their base. So as one gets more units, and more gnarly units, just build up the stack.
quote:

Another wierd plan was to create "Dads Army" units in cities. Ranging from 1 Bn equiv to 3 Bn equiv equipped as light infantry with old/obsolete weapons and made static. These would "garrison" the rear and stop towns being occupied by parachute assault by half battalions. Historically these were Local Defence volunteers in OZ, Garrison Bns & Indian State Forces Bns in India. Did the USA have an equivalent? (Non Federalized NG Troops?)

Yeah. That's not so wierd. But their weapons wouldn't be all that old/obsolete; rifles, Vickers/Berthier LMGs, 2" mortars, Lewis AAMGs, just a bit short on support weapons, but functional and capable. Garrison and ISF units were full-boogie light infantry battalions; motivated and capable. We put many of them into certain base forces, and use the excess as LOC units of battalion size.

There wasn't really a US equivalent. The NG was federalized and all available manpower went into officially structured units. I'm sure there was a bunch of ya-hoos out there that formed something like the Bakersfield Blues to protect us against the yellow peril, but you can imagine what an OOB of that lot would be like;
19 rifles (various calibers); 22 shotguns (various calibers); 43 pistols (various calibers); 306 cartridges/shells (various calibers); 50 lbs Virginia Leaf cut chewing tobacco; 40 gals Kentucky whiskey; 10 gals Rum.

No, we didn't have garrison or local State forces like ya'll did. We trusted to the loyal citizenry to raise up against an invader, if that would be necessary.

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 7:03:46 AM   
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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 8:07:23 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
We organized the British Indian Army into Brigades. No more divisions.


Going off vague memory here, but I think Andy Mac once stated that the changes to the combat engine in AE made smaller units very fragile in combats. Late war would be a divisional game because smaller sized units could not stand up to the increase in firepower as the war drags on and equipment improves.

I’ve been a little concerned about my Australians in my current game because of this old fuzzy memory (haven’t played with this new OOB before). So I’m wondering if anyone has tested how well the Aussies and now the Indians will stand up under heavy fire late game?

Don’t get me wrong I’m all for more historical accuracy whenever possible. I’m just concerned about game mechanic issues Andy mentioned years ago and how these changes will be affected by those issues if what I’m recalling is correct.

Jim



< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 4/13/2015 9:07:58 AM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 3:58:53 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Don’t get me wrong I’m all for more historical accuracy whenever possible. I’m just concerned about game mechanic issues Andy mentioned years ago and how these changes will be affected by those issues if what I’m recalling is correct.

Jim

No worries, Jim, perhaps back in 2009 this might have been true, although I wouldn’t have called them “fragile” and certainly not “very fragile”, but there’s been some work done in this area over time. Obviously, though, a Bn facing a Division won’t last too long, but as to a Division facing 3 Brigades/Regiments …? A wash, but with interesting suds.

To show the point, I whipped out the handy dandy test bed and ran three cases: A full Div attacking a full Div; 3 separate Regiments attacking a full Div; a full Div attacking 3 separate Regiments. 10 test runs for each case (not exactly statistically significant, but sufficient for show and tell); every test was “cold” started from the desktop.

The divisions are BigBabes style, with DivArty removed into 4 separate Arty Bns. Each Div/Regt has the arty that was integral to the regiments. Thus, the Div/Regts perform a deliberate assault while the Arty bombards. The separate regiments each have precisely 1/3 of the specific devices of the full division. In every one of the tests, the following obtains, regardless of the Div/Regt structure:
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 13194 troops, 101 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 383
Defending force 11133 troops, 101 guns, 89 vehicles, Assault Value = 343

Both sides are in a dot hex, terrain is clear (no modifiers); there are no forts; neither side is prepped; there are no combat modifiers; both sides have 2x native supply; both sides have 78% of required Support. It is as nominal as nominal can possibly be.

The results/conclusions are rather eye opening, but I won’t spoil the fun of making ya’ll plow through the case data. So, without further adoo …


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 4:00:35 PM   
Symon


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Case 1: Full Div v Full Div

Japanese Deliberate attack
Assaulting units:
1st Test Division
4x Test Arty Bns

Defending units:
1st Test Division
4x Test Arty Bns

Attacking force 13194 troops, 101 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 383
Defending force 11133 troops, 101 guns, 89 vehicles, Assault Value = 343

Avg Japanese adjusted assault: 121
Avg Allied adjusted defense: 113
Avg Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 – 80%, 1 to 2 – 20%

Avg Japanese ground losses:
1035 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 92 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 10 (1 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Avg Allied ground losses:
301 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 32 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 11 (2 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (5 destroyed, 9 disabled)


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 4:02:00 PM   
Symon


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Case 2: Full Div v 3 Regiments

Japanese Deliberate attack
Assaulting units:
1st Test Division
4x Test Arty Bns

Defending units:
1st Test Regiment
2nd Test Regiment
3rd Test Regiment
4x Test Arty Bns

Attacking force 13194 troops, 101 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 383
Defending force 11133 troops, 101 guns, 89 vehicles, Assault Value = 343

Avg Japanese adjusted assault: 142
Avg Allied adjusted defense: 179
Avg Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 - 70%, 1 to 1 – 30%

Avg Japanese ground losses:
1343 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 122 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 13 (3 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Avg Allied ground losses:
257 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 27 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


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Post #: 17
RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 4:03:02 PM   
Symon


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Case 3: 3 Regiments v Full Div

Japanese Deliberate attack
Assaulting units:
1st Test Regiment
2nd Test Regiment
3rd Test Regiment
4x Test Arty Bns

Defending units:
1st Test Division
4x Test Arty Bns

Attacking force 13194 troops, 101 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 383
Defending force 11133 troops, 101 guns, 89 vehicles, Assault Value = 343

Avg Japanese adjusted assault: 243
Avg Allied adjusted defense: 164
Avg Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 – 10%, 1 to 1 – 80%, 1 to 2 – 10%

Avg Japanese ground losses:
995 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 87 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Avg Allied ground losses:
465 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 52 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (5 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 4:49:54 PM   
Jim D Burns


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Thanks Symon, didn’t mean to put you to work like that. So going off your tests here it looks like my concerns regarding late war firepower tearing through smaller sized unit formations is a non-issue. I wish I could dig up Andy’s old comments but as you stated it was probably back near release or perhaps even before release when he made them and I may very well be miss-remembering what he said.

Jim


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 4:50:55 PM   
Symon


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[ed] Sorry Jim. You intercepted the conclusions post. Oh, well.

When you look at the data closely, one can make an argument that, under certain conditions, 3 regiments play a bit better than an integrated division. Without getting into the algorithm, this is a good argument.

Simple inspection shows that adjusted assault and/or defense values are a bit enhanced (ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL) for the Brigade/Regt establishment. This ports into the final assault odds. Another notable thing is devices destroyed vs devices disabled; forget “casualties”, look at “destroyed”, disabled devices can get fixed. It’s a lot closer than you would think.

This is the “nominal” condition. Obviously, defenders in jungle or mountain terrain will do better. Defenders with fortifications will do better. Prep is good.

Most of the ‘regiments are bad’ reports have been by people who are playing at the outer edge of the distribution envelope and who don’t understand the impact of ‘other’ considerations on the die rolls. They don’t even know about die rolls, about how stack size effects die rolls, and how each die roll depends on a random seed generated at game start and how the number of die rolls is …. Yeah, oops, but it’s been said before and a mathematician knows exactly what I’m saying and what it means.

Play righteous, there’s no issue whatsoever. Play “whacko” and we won’t even pay attention. Play middling and have issues, we’ll be glad to take a look.

Ciao. John


< Message edited by Symon -- 4/13/2015 5:52:41 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 6:37:20 PM   
witpqs


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I wasn't aware that had been worked on - very good and welcome news!

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/13/2015 7:36:43 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I wasn't aware that had been worked on - very good and welcome news!

Funny thing, my friend, is that many of the tweaks were done by Michaelm in the 1107 rev, which eventually became the 1108r9 comprehensive update. There were some on-going grits that Michaelm handled in beta. They are now wrapped up in the latest "official" update.

Thing is that the forum posts on this subject are simply wrong. Ciao. JWE

[ed] And now that's done, pal, why not let's go back to to the OP premise, yeah ?

< Message edited by Symon -- 4/13/2015 11:16:15 PM >


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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/14/2015 3:02:35 AM   
DOCUP


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I like the sounds of this. Got an ETA on when us poor people can take a gander at it.

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Post #: 23
RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/14/2015 2:50:06 PM   
Symon


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Hey witpqs,

One last quickie before getting back to India. The brigade/regiment thing is kinda fundamental to the BBSM paradigm, and plays a big part in DBB, so it will be fairly pervasive. There's lots of 'recieved wisdom' out there that is rather confusing, and that might keep people from trying the system. Maybe you could give Alfred a heads-up on this so he can continue doing what he does so well? There's a couple other features and play recommendations that make this work very well. Shoot me a note and I'll detail these and let ya'll know where michaelm put the goodies. Between the two of you, I know you will be able to explain it better than I could, and can put folks on the right track.

Ciao. JWE

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/14/2015 3:54:26 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

Shoot me a note

Email sent.

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/14/2015 5:50:04 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP
I like the sounds of this. Got an ETA on when us poor people can take a gander at it.

Oh, my.




Attachment (1)

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/14/2015 8:51:59 PM   
Skyros


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I need to play more golf.

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RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/15/2015 3:38:08 AM   
TOMLABEL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon




Ho Daddy!!!

Now that's what I'm talking about!!

Oh!

Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.

TOMLABEL

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 4/15/2015 4:45:33 AM >


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Post #: 28
RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/15/2015 3:54:33 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL
Ho Daddy!!!
Now that's what I'm talking about!!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.
TOMLABEL

Oh, heck yes, I'd let her play in my foursome! But it would kill my handicap; I'd slice unmercifully and drive every ball into the water hazard!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.

Well, in certain respects, we have the infantry anti-armor figured out. What we have is infantry squads with the intrinsic anti-armor of their intrinsic infantry weapons; rifles, LMGs, all that stuff. But there were some pretty specific AT-rifle, Piat, and Bazooka teams called out in the establishments.

For example, the Brits had a .55 cal Boys team (3 men, one ATR) as part of platoon HQ section (one 2” mortar team, one ATR team). The 2” mortars are folded into the squad definitions, but the AT teams can be collected and abstracted like what was done with the Brens and troops of the ‘carrier’ platoon.

One can count noses and have quite a few of these, but aggregating them in threes gives a reasonable AT squad size and a reasonable number of AT squads in a higher unit – approximately as many as MMG/HMG squads. So one is able to get decent anti-armor capability (including the Chinese, btw) without violating the firepower vs assault value rules and allowing a better tailoring of the strictly infantry components. Our play results suggest that armored units may no longer flit hither and yon and play the 900 lb gorilla.

So there’s a new section/squad called AT section/squad that informs the anti-armor paradigm. They follow the AT weapon progression but have little firepower in the conventional sense. This also allows nominal infantry squads to remain at nominal levels for a longer period of time. Makes upgrade build rates a lot easier to handle.

Ciao JWE

< Message edited by Symon -- 4/15/2015 4:57:48 PM >


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Post #: 29
RE: New Model Indian Army - 4/16/2015 2:03:53 AM   
TOMLABEL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Oh, heck yes, I'd let her play in my foursome! But it would kill my handicap; I'd slice unmercifully and drive every ball into the water hazard!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.

Ciao JWE


Sorry J!! I just saw "model" in the thread title and.....



TOMLABEL

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