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RE: loss of morale - 9/2/2015 12:33:10 AM   
MattFL

 

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From looking at Vigabrand's screens, I think Loki knew full well where the german panzers were. They were mostly about 15 hexes or so south of where the breakthrough occurred with one corps about 15 hexes west. Judging by the hex control at start of German turn, it seems Loki had decided to abandon his defense of Orel and back his line up. I just question why he backed his line up to open ground and not the woods and Zhidra river. He could have had a perfectly straight line running west to east in good terrain, but my guess is he didn't want to give up Bryansk so kept his line further forward in open ground. It was a mistake and he paid for it and to me has nothing to do with any issues with the soviets in '42....

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 271
RE: loss of morale - 9/3/2015 12:57:19 AM   
Sorta

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In .05 soviets get
- better way to attack with large forces at the price of increased casualties (if against strong position)
- hqbu is weaker
- morale 45 in '42
- faster fort building
At the price of
- forts being weaker, dropping faster


Looks like an elegant fix to the WWI problem and allow the Soviets to put up the occasional defence. I assume this will affect ongoing games?


(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 272
RE: loss of morale - 9/3/2015 2:37:50 PM   
MattFL

 

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What exactly is a "better way to attack with large forces"?

How much weaker will the forts be? This is one of those subtle changes that could have a balance effect....

(in reply to Sorta)
Post #: 273
RE: loss of morale - 9/6/2015 10:20:56 PM   
loki100


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That seemed to have provoked more comment than expected. So apols, let my frustration at the impact of the 40 NM spill over as a reaction to a very good move by vigabrand. Also apols to Morvael, I am in awe at the quality and extent of the 1.08 patching process, its just that this game seems very easy to throw off balance and I do think letting the 40NM drag out from April-September is too much for too long.

I'm not going to respond in any great detail but mattp has misunderstood the problem I had. I'll cover this when that turn comes up but I'd pulled back as far as my MP allowed me to. I didn't want to leave a picket screen (I probably should) as, ironically I was trying not to lose any more in pockets than necessary. The 40 NM has shifted my defensive stacks from being able to force the Germans to concentrate to being pushed aside in hasty attacks.

I think I have lost, but lets see where this works out. Quite simply I can't get my massive manpower reserves out of the reserve pool so I suspect vigabrand can do pac-man tactics for quite some time before the equally hard wired hit to his infantry morale effectively stops the Panzers.

As to cheating and server vs PBEM, this gets a wee bit wearying to be honest. I prefer PBEM as it allows more analysis post event and I think creates the basis for richer more informative AARs. As M60A3TTS says

quote:

Just because someone can, doesn't mean everyone does. My $.02
 

sums up my view perfectly. Simple question is why bother? Going by the data in the 1942 thread, it looks like as of T63 my losses, chaos45 and M60A3TTS are pretty much the same which is pretty indicative. The only reason the front line is in a radically different place, is that vigabrand opted to pull back substantially in the winter, which is not what Pelton or smokindave did.

And again, sorry about letting frustration with the hard wired morale problem spill over ... not fair on anyone.

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(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 274
Turn 63: 27 August – 2 September 1942 - 9/6/2015 10:23:47 PM   
loki100


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Turn 63: 27 August – 2 September 1942

The end of August, saw a brief reduction in the level of combat. The Germans completed the encirclement of Soviet positions at Kursk, Smolensk and near Boguchar



All these operations could be seen as the final phase of the fighting that had spread across most of August. As such, it offered little information as to German capabilities or intentions. The practical impact of the complete loss of the Ukraine, defeat at Kursk and the blunting of various Soviet offensives was to seriously damage morale at all levels in the Soviet armed forces. For all their efforts, it seemed to be impossible to stall the German attack.

At Sevastopol, despite Soviet attacks on the Romanian airbases, the destruction of the city continued.





OOB




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Post #: 275
RE: Turn 63: 27 August – 2 September 1942 - 9/6/2015 10:46:14 PM   
chaos45

 

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Loki, I think personal morale aside you are doing fine you still have a very large army, tons of troops/armaments in the pool and as of september have held the Germans further west than any other Soviet player.

Even with the encirclement you are still doing fine unless there is a super worse one coming up.

I got alittle demoralized as well at 100k+ pockets happening every couple turns, but its just the result of the system. The Soviets have the ability to recover as long as you arent losing more than an average of about 50k men per turn...basically you can safely lose 5 or divisions on average per turn to pockets and still be fine.

Is it annoying as a player, I think so yes but its the nature of game at current.

An honestly I have no manpower and not alot in armaments pool either, you have tons of both.....So once you start building new formations they will instantly fill out whereas I usually have to wait 2-3 turns for my new formations to fill up to 90%+ ToE.

You did very well early in the game and took some rought hits in 1942 but you bought yourself a ton of extra padding for 1942 by doing really well in 1941......so all in all seems your doing fine

Once the winter of 1942 hits you will be able to attack some and provided you keep building up units all winter long you will quickly fill them out to increase you army size again all winter....and his army takes a morale hit and you gain morale in 1943.....the +5/-5 change is close to a 25% total shift in CV towards the Soviets. 5 morale+ on Soviet corps is a huge increase in CV esp your guard Rifle corps they start to become really good from 1943 as they fill up to the new morale levels.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 276
RE: loss of morale - 9/6/2015 11:15:29 PM   
timmyab

 

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I'm pleased to see you carry on. Part of what makes for a good commander is the ability to think clearly under pressure and cope with reverses.
Vigabrand seems to be learning fast and the game will probably be a struggle from here onwards, but I'd say you're no worse than drawing at the moment.
The Soviet side will get some help in 42 from the next patch.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 277
RE: loss of morale - 9/6/2015 11:50:15 PM   
M60A3TTS


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I second timmyab's thoughts. Playing against a competent Axis player now is a mental endurance contest. The frustrations felt in 1942 don't go away in 1943, they simply manifest themselves in new forms. When you get a hold result with an 8-1 manpower advantage after the same panzer division reserve activates for the third time, you'll know what I'm talking about.

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Post #: 278
RE: loss of morale - 9/7/2015 1:14:11 AM   
Sorta

 

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Well that's buggered my new AAR which was to be called 'Ode to Lokki'.

Need a new title and quick

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 279
RE: loss of morale - 9/7/2015 3:41:22 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Next time a Pz xx has the temerity to activate three times in one turn, don't get "mad", get "even". Let the Red AF say "hello", Bomb unit (manual), oh, about 3000 planes worth, every day and twice on Sunday makes eight strikes. Yeah, I know , disruption only, but pretty fun, and the activation will be less effective.

Loki's AAR's are soooo great, welcome back, and don't scare me like that again!! :)

(in reply to Sorta)
Post #: 280
RE: loss of morale - 9/7/2015 7:48:27 PM   
chaos45

 

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Ahh all caught up now the big pocket is in September so after all these strength shots....still your in a survivable state mud is almost there for you to get some rebuild time.

I will say he has almost perfect recon of your lines and that is probably helping him alot. I spent alot of early 1942 pounding every exposed German recon aircraft unit I could find and as the year wore on it slowly lessened his ability to have perfect recon as to my lines and reserves positions I think.

Looking forward to seeing how it all turns out

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RE: loss of morale - 9/8/2015 3:05:11 AM   
MattFL

 

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Glad you've decided to carry on Loki, I think it's the right move and things aren't as bad as they probably initially seemed..... I'm getting in the middle of June '42 in my game as Soviets and the Germans are powerful indeed after nearly 2 months of mud and very little combat and I've already faced a large encirclement. But the Russians too are powerful particularly as more and more corps of all types take over the front lines and now that the panzers are committed massive strength shifts to oppose them. So I think in the end, you'll be ok as the mud will give you time to shore up your lines. Anyway, looking forward to the continued AAR!

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RE: loss of morale - 9/8/2015 11:01:37 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I'm pleased to see you carry on. Part of what makes for a good commander is the ability to think clearly under pressure and cope with reverses.
Vigabrand seems to be learning fast and the game will probably be a struggle from here onwards, but I'd say you're no worse than drawing at the moment.
The Soviet side will get some help in 42 from the next patch.


I think a draw is feasible if I can avoid any more serious losses in 1942, which I am not sure I can. For various reasons the current patch hands the Germans too much in 1942, some is the game engine (limitless supply if you have a rail head, too low losses for attacking etc) but the 40 NM is just too much for too long. No point rehearsing that again, but its come close to making 1941 unimportant (unless the Germans manage a clear win).

Big issue for me is the admin pts I was going to use to build the 1943+ army are going to have to go on trying to construct enough units to allow me to survive. And once the rivers freeze, vigabrand can go pretty much anywhere with no real constraints.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ahh all caught up now the big pocket is in September so after all these strength shots....still your in a survivable state mud is almost there for you to get some rebuild time.

I will say he has almost perfect recon of your lines and that is probably helping him alot. I spent alot of early 1942 pounding every exposed German recon aircraft unit I could find and as the year wore on it slowly lessened his ability to have perfect recon as to my lines and reserves positions I think.

Looking forward to seeing how it all turns out


aye that is the key, I lost a net 200,000 in the next turn (basically the pockets around Voroshilovgrad) and will loose around 450,000 as a result of the coming disaster. So my guess is my army will be near 7m at the end of Sept with a massive manpower reserve. I'll have to use most of the admin pts that come with the new SW Front to create shell formations and that will delay any large scale conversion to corps till I get the Steppe Front in spring 1943.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mattp

Glad you've decided to carry on Loki, I think it's the right move and things aren't as bad as they probably initially seemed..... I'm getting in the middle of June '42 in my game as Soviets and the Germans are powerful indeed after nearly 2 months of mud and very little combat and I've already faced a large encirclement. But the Russians too are powerful particularly as more and more corps of all types take over the front lines and now that the panzers are committed massive strength shifts to oppose them. So I think in the end, you'll be ok as the mud will give you time to shore up your lines. Anyway, looking forward to the continued AAR!


It is pretty bad, due to the losses, there is no reason why vigabrand can't do pac man attacks all year. Its not just about manpower, if he destroys 60 admin pts of counters per turn (6 divisions) then he stops me getting my massive off map manpower into the game, and that escalates as its takes time to get a new division anywhere above 2 cv.

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Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 11:06:26 AM   
loki100


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Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942

Soviet reconnaisance flights indicated a massive redeployment of the German armour from the lower Don to near Voronezh.



Given their location, it was estimated that the most likely target would be to attack north and then swing west towards Tula.

Most of the front saw limited action. Soviet formations made further gains at Smolensk and Stavka authorised a radical plan to relieve the pressure on Sevastopol.


(Soviet Marines in the Crimea)

Marines and a rifle division were used to cut Axis rail links to the region. There was no hope that this would turn the tide of the fighting, but it might force the Romanians to reduce their operations for a few weeks.



In addition, more Soviet bombers and long range fighters were sent to the region to try and weaken the Romanian airforce.


(one of the first squadrons using the new Tu-2 in operation in the Crimea)

Overall, facing the German build up to the east of Orel, Stavka authorised Bryansk, Western and Voronezh Fronts to pull back. Voronezh Front's Tank Armies were split into two clusters so that it would be possible to respond to a German offensive that struck to the east or west of Orel.

However, the scope existed to encircle German formations around Pochinok and Stodolische and this blinded the Soviets to the threat to their rear.


[1]



Losses were fairly light as most of the fighting was the destruction of the Voroshilovgrad pocket. The Germans lost 25,000 men (8,000 killed), 80 tanks and 100 planes and Soviet losses were 250,000 men (14,000 killed, 210,000 prisoners, 220 tanks and 300 planes.


[1] Since it no longer shows anything of any value, here's the view with the actual deployment of my side. Remember from the recon the Panzers are well to the east of Orel.

No point rehearsing the irritants in the game engine such as losses making no difference to German capacity, limitless supply, ease with which they retain high MP and my stacks dipping to 3-5 cv on average.

Key is, I forgot how far the Pzrs can move and remember these have just been redeployed from the Voroshilovgrad battles (where they were completely cut off from resupply for 2 turns), so in addition to fighting all summer have just driven 150 km across central Russia. My assumption was if they swung west they would lack MP to push far, hence the picket line from Bryansk to the upper Oka. Most likely was to drive north, across the Mecha and try to encircle Tula.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/8/2015 12:10:39 PM >


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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 12:56:42 PM   
chaos45

 

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Just a quick comment from looking at your screen shots and several other Soviet Players.

For defense as the Soviets one strategy I have found seems to work really well in Slowing Panzer attacks/breakthroughs is a 2 up 1 back deployment of Soviet lines.

For your frontline use either 2 divisions or a division and a BDE and then have a second line right behind the first line of at least 1 unit. BDE/Division doesnt matter just another unit. It makes it very hard and takes the panzers alot of MP to breach this line especially if both lines are fortified to any extent.

Then if you know that is the area the Germans are going to attack have a picket line at the 3-5 hex range back from the main line of resistence.

The reasons for this are if will take the first several panzer divisions to clear out a decent hole to move through. Then the Follow up panzers will be slowed by Zoc's clearing out the secondary lines that get pushed back and dealing with pushing back the rear pickets to clear Zoc's/change hex control. Its all about forcing the panzers/motorized divions to expend movement points doing/getting to where they want. Also that picket line at the rear can help you maintain some hex control to make it easier for your counterattack forces to get into place without paying huge MP.

Very rarely will I put all 3 units in the first hex unless I really want to hold a location or am counterattacking in that area.

Another note on area reserves/counterattack forces. Rarely would I concentrate them in one stack unless attacking. When on the defense I almost always left my counterattack forces spread out in a line or picket line formation at the back. Makes it much hard for the Germans to encircle them all and makes it to where you have a stronger last ditch picket line for them to punch though after they have already worn themselves down getting to it. THen once you see the Germans commit to pull them all together due to their mobility to counterpunch.

The only time this almost failed me was when Pelton swung big and encircled a shock army and bunch of my tank corps. The issue was the line of tank/cav corps made him swing far to the north and south to get the encirclement and thus the outer line was weak and I was able to break out saving all my units but some infantry divisions/bdes. Plus I was committed into a counterattack at the time and most my cav corps at the front not at the back. Was other tactical reasons for it, I didnt extend the line quite far enough to the south and to many units still under stavka control so they fought very badly. My northern flank tank corps were under stavka and were pushed aside much more easily than they should have been. Soviet command/control issues lol.

The 2 up 1 back lines with reserve picket lines is the best strategy I have come up with for Soviet defense in 41/42. Problem is to create this good defense takes alot of units and in general you have to allow weak points. In general I let the south be weak as its open ground and the Germans will make progress there no matter what you do. Once all the German armor is committed to the south you can start to strip your northern forces to build a stronger and stronger line in the south or couterattack in the northern areas if you feel you have CV for it. Mobile forces at the rear of you lines if best for the south.

I know I have talked this alot but if I play through again as the Soviets I will concentrate even more on getting guard cav corps over the winter of 1941 into 1942. The guard cav corps in shock armies were the backbone of my Soviets 1942 defense by summer I had 20 cav corps with 15 of them being guards. The tank corps were a help but almost all the CV for counterattacks and stopping power came from the guard cav corps. Even getting close to 1943 my guard Cav corps are still my main assault units as they still have more CV than both my mech/tank corps due to higher morale and that extra bit of MP helps them get to positions the guard infantry corps cant. Guard infantry corps are really only for places where your flanks cant be exposed and you can challenge the Germans head on.

Situation on the ground also changes how you have to defend but in general these are the things I found worked. If you get all 20 cav corps in one location you can basically tackle the German panzer ball head on especially if you have 5 or so tank/mech corps in support. The biggest problem is the German panzers are much more mobile so they will lock in get tackled by all the cav corps lock an encirclement then sprint off around you or to a new location for an encirclement of opportunity. Which is why its very hard to keep all 20 corps concnetrated to tackle the panzers...so usually its concentrate for a couple turns counterattacking the Panzers then backing all the cav off to form a reserve in depth again to prepare for the next major german encirclement as you cant afford to lose all your cav corps to one encirclement 1-2 you can accept but losing more than that cuts deep into your counterattack ability.

Also locking up German supply lines is huge to limit German mobility even if they lock an encirlcement if you can open it one turn and at the same time zoc most of the German panzers supply lines you can greatly limit their ability to keep moving for 1-2 turns. after about 2 turns though even with lots of zocs they will have enough movement to crush your face....which why in my AAR you will noticed I counterattack usually keep the pocket open about 1-2 turns then start to back away as the panzers become more and more mobile again. By Zoc- you need more than 1 supply hex zoc'd as the penalties build the more hexes you zoc along the supply path to the panzers. if you can get 3+ it doesnt seem like much supply makes it to the end user. I have used zoc's on German supply lines alot over my game vs pelton and it does have an effect in limiting how quickly and how many movement points the Panzers get. Even sacrificing units rifle BDE/Div here and there just to keep limiting German re-supply.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 285
RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 4:29:39 PM   
loki100


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all good advice that I'd fully agree with ... as ever the real challenge is actually forcing yourself to do what you think is right.

This:

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
after about 2 turns though even with lots of zocs they will have enough movement to crush your face....which why in my AAR you will noticed I counterattack usually keep the pocket open about 1-2 turns then start to back away as the panzers become more and more mobile again


I think is the critical bit. I've learnt it the hard way in this game. You can contest a pocket for 2 turns but regardless of the potential to open it up again, its not a good idea to do it for a third turn. If you do, all you are going to achieve is an escalation of your losses into a new and wider pocket. I think my early defense of the Poltava sector reinforces this message, it quite simply went on one turn too long.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

....

I will say he has almost perfect recon of your lines and that is probably helping him alot. I spent alot of early 1942 pounding every exposed German recon aircraft unit I could find and as the year wore on it slowly lessened his ability to have perfect recon as to my lines and reserves positions I think.

....


meant to pick up on this. In my game with SigUp, by this stage we were both pretty blind as far as air recon went. I was using U2s by need not choice and neither of us could plaster the front. It wasn't a product of airbase bombing, seemed more to do with air to air combat. In this game, I lose almost no recon in operation to either fighters or flak.

so not sure why, most of that game was under 1.07.xx, so maybe something in the 1.08 codes has changed things since you seem to be saying you've inflicted your losses on his recon via airbase attacks?

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/8/2015 5:36:09 PM >


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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 5:43:09 PM   
chaos45

 

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Yes I bombed Peltons recon airbases a ton. Was allowed by house rules 3 raids per base per turn so I bombed every recon airbase I could find 3 times per turn for several months of 1942.

As to my own Soviet Recon- Im finding I have a lack of recon aircraft for sure even though I dont recon a ton.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/8/2015 6:44:40 PM >

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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 5:53:19 PM   
VigaBrand

 

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Changelos from 1.08.03
"37.Aircraft performing recon missions will get a bonus to evade flak. Earlier there had been
x10 bonus, but it was disabled at some point. Now there will be a x4 bonus to evade flak."

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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 6:41:00 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Yes I bombed Peltons recon airbases a ton. Was allowed by house rules 3 raids per base per turn so I bombed every recon airbase I could find 3 times per turn for several months of 1942.

As to my own Soviet Recon- Im finding I have a lack of recon aircraft for sure even though I dont recon a ton.


There are recon planes in inventory you normally don't look at, but they are there:

R-5
R-10
Yak-2
Yak-4

I'd really like to see the U-2 upgradable to the U-2R. That's not a stretch.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 289
RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/8/2015 7:52:40 PM   
morvael


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That's how my front looked like at the same in-game time... on 1.06.25 in January 2013 :)




Attachment (1)

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 290
RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 12:07:43 AM   
chaos45

 

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Morvael- the game has obviously changed a ton since then, as you have a ton of trucks. Most of the current soviet players are seeing a deficit of trucks especially by the end of 1942.

Guessing some change under the hood has caused much higher Soviet truck attrition, or lower Soviet truck production. By winter both me and M60 are 50% or less required trucks in our AARs.

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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 3:39:33 AM   
morvael


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I too had a truck crisis, realized that it is coming mid-September. I had to stop building any new motorized formations and had to "brace for impact". The crisis was mostly triggered by the change of maximum air group size from 20 to 40/32 in December '42 (and the coming of winter). I went down to 84% in units and 67% in pool. Had to send back half of the planes to reserve and disband some units. Got back to 100% in March '44 (and as high as 144% in October '44), but the end of Lend-Lease in '45 and the requirements of mobile operations again had a major impact and the last few weeks were a slide to 87%, with turn losses between 6500-7000 vehicles. One has to save trucks by keeping close to repaired rail, moving slowly and staying out of fight, quite opposite what is required by the need to hurt your enemy :)

At that time I also had 50 NM due to bug, so my units were stronger than loki's for sure.

Just wanted to show how I built my line, in opposition to prevailing "ant carpet" tactics at that time. Strongest units at the front, maxed out stack size, trying to keep defensive CV per hex roughly equal, with "carpet" of lone units tightly placed without any spaces, going from highest strength near front to lowest in the rear. Depth increased from 2 hexes (minimum) to 3-4 hexes having more than 1 unit in back hexes where the enemy was attacking. Where my line was compromised I retreated enough to keep each hex in contact with at most 3 enemy hexes, never 4. The Germans were able to push my line back, but never break it. Downside was quite a lot of routs and extra losses due to having retreat more than 1 hex if back hex was also full. But the enemy had hard time penetrating such line. Maybe this was nice for me as a player, but I didn't like it as it didn't resemble history.

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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 3:45:36 AM   
chaos45

 

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Yes if u have the units for that type of troop density. I think at this point most soviet players are finding the ability to keep troop density intact south of the Oka almost impossible.


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RE: Turn 64: 3-9 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 3:53:35 AM   
morvael


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Yeah, I guess I was lucky that I lost my last few units due to encirclement in September '41 (or October). I guess my opponent wasn't keen to use pacman tactics and wanted to achieve big breakthrough, and that was very hard for him to do given the strength of my line. On the other hand I was losing too many trucks due to bug, where each support unit attached to combat unit was using the same number of vehicles as it's parent unit for resupply, which means trucks losses were higher than they should be. And those support units were also accumulating trucks, never to return them unless detached from parent, so I had some sapper regiments with 400+ trucks.

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recon - 9/9/2015 3:58:54 AM   
BrianG

 

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In my game v Pelton, I have killed 920 Axis recon planes and we are at march 42.

I only attack airbase once per turn max.

I suggest more Airbase attacks.

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RE: recon - 9/9/2015 7:22:59 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Yes I bombed Peltons recon airbases a ton. Was allowed by house rules 3 raids per base per turn so I bombed every recon airbase I could find 3 times per turn for several months of 1942.

As to my own Soviet Recon- Im finding I have a lack of recon aircraft for sure even though I dont recon a ton.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

Changelos from 1.08.03
"37.Aircraft performing recon missions will get a bonus to evade flak. Earlier there had been
x10 bonus, but it was disabled at some point. Now there will be a x4 bonus to evade flak."


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

...

There are recon planes in inventory you normally don't look at, but they are there:

R-5
R-10
Yak-2
Yak-4

I'd really like to see the U-2 upgradable to the U-2R. That's not a stretch.



Vigabrand thanks for that, it does explain why in the last game if I did recon and there was a unit in the hex I often immediately lost one or more aircraft.

Don't think as the Soviet player you should be short of recon planes. You can build U2_R as you need and they (and the R5) are actually fine for short range missions on quieter sectors. The SB2R remains a decent plane and as M60 says the Yak 2/4 are useful for at least one squadron each.

I'd agree about the U2VS/U2R. For all intents and purposes they were the same plane, think the transport version had some real differences (but could have been used for recon if needed).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

In my game v Pelton, I have killed 920 Axis recon planes and we are at march 42.

I only attack airbase once per turn max.

I suggest more Airbase attacks.


think you are right, clearly with the current rules, neither side are going to lose many recon planes actually conducting operations


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Morvael- the game has obviously changed a ton since then, as you have a ton of trucks. Most of the current soviet players are seeing a deficit of trucks especially by the end of 1942.

Guessing some change under the hood has caused much higher Soviet truck attrition, or lower Soviet truck production. By winter both me and M60 are 50% or less required trucks in our AARs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I too had a truck crisis, realized that it is coming mid-September. I had to stop building any new motorized formations and had to "brace for impact". The crisis was mostly triggered by the change of maximum air group size from 20 to 40/32 in December '42 (and the coming of winter). I went down to 84% in units and 67% in pool. Had to send back half of the planes to reserve and disband some units. Got back to 100% in March '44 (and as high as 144% in October '44), but the end of Lend-Lease in '45 and the requirements of mobile operations again had a major impact and the last few weeks were a slide to 87%, with turn losses between 6500-7000 vehicles. One has to save trucks by keeping close to repaired rail, moving slowly and staying out of fight, quite opposite what is required by the need to hurt your enemy :)

At that time I also had 50 NM due to bug, so my units were stronger than loki's for sure.

Just wanted to show how I built my line, in opposition to prevailing "ant carpet" tactics at that time. Strongest units at the front, maxed out stack size, trying to keep defensive CV per hex roughly equal, with "carpet" of lone units tightly placed without any spaces, going from highest strength near front to lowest in the rear. Depth increased from 2 hexes (minimum) to 3-4 hexes having more than 1 unit in back hexes where the enemy was attacking. Where my line was compromised I retreated enough to keep each hex in contact with at most 3 enemy hexes, never 4. The Germans were able to push my line back, but never break it. Downside was quite a lot of routs and extra losses due to having retreat more than 1 hex if back hex was also full. But the enemy had hard time penetrating such line. Maybe this was nice for me as a player, but I didn't like it as it didn't resemble history.



quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yeah, I guess I was lucky that I lost my last few units due to encirclement in September '41 (or October). I guess my opponent wasn't keen to use pacman tactics and wanted to achieve big breakthrough, and that was very hard for him to do given the strength of my line. On the other hand I was losing too many trucks due to bug, where each support unit attached to combat unit was using the same number of vehicles as it's parent unit for resupply, which means trucks losses were higher than they should be. And those support units were also accumulating trucks, never to return them unless detached from parent, so I had some sapper regiments with 400+ trucks.


I've got about 90% of unit demand/supply demand think as I am quite ruthless with the 1941 tank and motorised divisions (all at 50% TOE and once they have fought once are sent back to dig big holes in the Rodina till they convert) and I keep unneeded tank brigades at 50%. Also pretty cautious about usage of level bombers.



_____________________________


(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 296
Turn 65: 10-16 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 7:31:06 PM   
loki100


Posts: 7467
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: online
Turn 65: 10-16 September 1942

So how did Moscow respond?

It was chaos.

The night of 10 September was like that of 22 June 1941. We started sending out the normal Stavka orders including promotion for General Rokossovsky and Guards status for his tanks after their counterattack the previous week [1].



But by 4am it was clear that Stavka had miscalculated. That the Germans were building up for an offensive was well known but it was expected that Tula would be their target. I knew that Vladimir was acting as liaison officer between 40 Army (acting as Bryansk Front's reserve) and the front line formations so I was worried what might happen to him. Sacha's squadron had just been deployed into reserve after taking part in the Voroshilovgrad battles.




(before any Soviet moves or recon actions)

The first reports came in from Volkhov Front that 39 Panzer Corps had counter-attacked around Roslavl where the front had made gains in recent days. This was expected and even hoped for as it weakened the German defences to the north [2].

But soon after sunrise, Western Front's 3 Army reported that a massive German offensive had broken through its eastern flank and broken communication with 47 Army. From that the situation quickly worsened as reserve formations of 52 Army were swept away.

As it became clear as to the scale of the German offensive, the VVS was ordered to commit all available planes. The result was the only Soviet victory in all the chaos. Heavily reinforced by squadrons from the south, we shot down 170 German planes and lost 310. Constant bombing of their armoured columns and the provision of air support to the breakout attempts were critical in reducing the scale of the disaster.


(La-5 in action)

What made it worse was that a series of army and front HQ had to hastily redeploy, completely breaking normal communications with Stavka. Key rail and road links such as that between Vyazma and Smolensk were severed leading to panic that Vyazma and Rzhev would be taken.


(again before moves or recon but shows where I managed to counter-attack)

Even by the 11th it was not clear if some commanders had been killed or were simply trying to find their units and re-establish communications.

So what happened

Some degree of co-ordination was imposed as best as possible. Stavka officers used U2s to contact front line headquarters in an attempt to co-ordinate some counter-attacks.

In fact, the front line formations re-acted with a degree of discipline, in this respect it was nothing like the events west of Minsk in June 1941. The first counter-attack was by 2 Shock Army and helped improve supply and communication for the formations at Bryansk. At the same time 52 Army attacked into the pocket holding 2 and 4 Tank Armies [3].



4 Shock Army launched a series of massive attacks around Roslavl and finally forced the Germans back.




(elements of 4 Shock Army near Roslavl)

In turn 20 Army and an ad-hoc group of armoured and infantry formations not only regained control of the Vyazma-Smolensk rail line but overran the German 13 Panzer division inflicting heavy losses.


[4]

These counter-attacks re-established communications and Stavka ordered massive retreats. Elements of Kalinin and Western Front became completely inter-mixed as they tried to stop the Germans crossing the Oka. In the meantime Bryansk Front fell back towards Ryazan and Voronezh Front to around Tambov. Volkhov Front, Stavka reserve formations (4 Tank and 4 Shock) and Western Front's 3 Army were effectively lost.



Oddly actual losses were light. The Germans lost 25,000 men (8,000 killed), 220 tanks and 170 planes. Soviet losses were 80,000 men (17,000 killed and 35,000 prisoners), 250 tanks and 310 planes.


[1] I'd discovered a relatively isolated Hungarian tank division, so managed 3 hasty attacks using a lot of my remaining armour in the south before I pulled back behind my defensive lines. Nothing else in that turn to be happy over.
[2] I was hoping to pull off a proper encirclement as probing attacks had revealed a number of weak spots in the previous turn.
[3] 2 Tank Army was able to completely escape the pocket as a result
[4] Since it routed to an exposed spot, I dislodged it again, hopefully destroying even more tanks.

_____________________________


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 297
RE: Turn 65: 10-16 September 1942 - 9/9/2015 8:09:41 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11753
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
These might be painful turns, but they'll generate views on your AAR thread like nothing else.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 298
RE: recon - 9/10/2015 1:25:55 AM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

In my game v Pelton, I have killed 920 Axis recon planes and we are at march 42.

I only attack airbase once per turn max.

I suggest more Airbase attacks.



Soviet player should bomb his airbases the maximum amount every turn allowed by your house rules starting as early as possible. With unlimited, you can anhiliate the LW by October '41. With 3 per turn per base, takes longer obviously. I actually misunderstood Pelton's rule and in my game we are doing 3 total airbase bombings per turn and the LW is still ridiculously strong in summer '42.

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 299
RE: recon - 9/10/2015 2:22:08 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1859
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
IDK Mattp I found hitting areas with lots of luftwaffe fighters was suicide. The key thing was he left the luftwaffe kinda scattered out with a large concentration in the south.

So I bombed all the luftwaffe/recon bases not next to the ball of death. This was key as all the attrition on the other bases then slowly reduced the planes in the ball of death as replacements were sent to the bombed bases and not rebuilding the concentrated luftwaffe. The ball of death I found was worthless to attack as I would lose 100+ Soviet planes per air raid and do almost nothing. So the strength/weakness of the luftwaffe as the war goes on has alot to do with how its played.

Also putting the luftwaffe on ground interdiction is another way to get it quickly wiped out....as it will keep interdicting even after fighter cover is used up....was several turns I think I shot down like around 100 luftwaffe planes trying to interdict my ground movements.

So yes i think by 1943 the luftwaffe will for sure be weaker and more on the defensive as historical...however if cared for I think it can still play a major role throughout 1942, and maybe even some slight influence in 1943.

Another key play the German player can do is not keep the luftwaffe bases real close to the front. Most Soviet Fighters I think average 14 hex range and the further they are flying the less effective they seem to be. So if the luftwaffe bases are kept abit further back it lowers Soviet fighter escort capabilities and thus its just a total slaughter for the Soviet bombers.

Im not the expert some are at this game but I do think air power has a decent influence on ground combat with disruption so the longer the Luftwaffe stays a factor the harder it will be for the Soviets to successful gain complete initiative.

Also not so sure the axis trying to conduct an air campaign against the soviets in select instances is a bad idea. Early in 1942 the soviets dont have a massive surplus of good airframes so with some solid play the Axis might be able to conduct a decent air campaign and keep an edge abit longer esp if combined with ground movements. As bombing airfields typically damages lots of planes...then you overrun them with panzers and anything that cant fly is destroyed.....just some thoughts.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 300
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