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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 8:02:07 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Some comments and observations:

1) A fuel and oil target air campaign can work in WitW. Concentrating on fuel refineries (both normal and synth) during 43 until you can reach the Ploesti oil fields from the Med. Use the 8th USAAF and hit the targets with area=0 attacks. Use the 9th USAAF to provide recon - this can be area covered. You won't really see much of an effect on the Axis until late 44 and the Axis oil pool has to be reduced before the fuel stocks really start to fall. The 43 fuel campaign will slow the growth of the fuel pool - occasionally you can even make the pool decline for a few turns. Once it hits, the fuel shortage limits the MPs of the Axis units and also seems to limit air sorties.

2) Factories work and produce if rnd <= damage * 2 (or up to 50% damage). If they make their production roll, the full capacity of the factory produces. So if you have 49% damage and they make that 2% roll suddenly all 24 fuel produces fuel. If all you do is hit fuel refineries then it is difficult to keep them down because of all the small capacity factories (2 to 4) sites are hard to damage and continue to keep damaged enough to hinder the fuel production. The synth fuel factories are more concentrated and thus vulnerable. The oil factories are limited and extremely vulnerable. So the long term strategy is to target synth fuel and oil factories for the best results.

3) I have never really tried the resource or rail bombing campaigns - although I have been tempted by the rail a few times. I have too little experience with the Axis to know about the resources, but resources are not used in the fuel production cycle and give no VPs so it is hard to say. Definitely areas that should be checked out against both the AI and human players.

4) My game vs Pelton is around turn 65. His oil pool will hit zero in about four to six more turns. His fuel pool, however, has continued to climb despite anything I can do. I figure he might start having fuel concerns once 1945 rolls around.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 8:03:57 PM   
Balou


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Smirfy,

Why ? I wouldn't care, my guess is the LWs bottleneck is rather the low pilot replacement rate

< Message edited by Balou -- 2/26/2015 9:04:37 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 8:16:00 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Some comments and observations:

1)Once it hits, the fuel shortage limits the MPs of the Axis units and also seems to limit air sorties.



Very interesting. Because I always wondered why the LW didn't seem to care about interceptions once fuel store figures became critical.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 8:44:01 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Smirfy,

Why ? I wouldn't care, my guess is the LWs bottleneck is rather the low pilot replacement rate


Smirfy,

Well we see the logistical phenomenon of over a thousand Luftwaffe planes at the extremity of the Riech flying intensive Naval interdiction against invaisions when the bottleneck was lack of aviation spirit. Perhaps aircraft consumption should be upped.






< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/26/2015 9:44:35 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 9:14:01 PM   
Balou


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I'm not so familiar with historical facts. But by mid 44, when the invasion of F "usually" occurs, no way to have done enough damage to axis oil/fuel production under the current rules. Raising AC fuel consumption ? I'd rather have those axis pilots near my beaches which is were I can take them out.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 9:43:48 PM   
decourcy2

 

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Technically the German refined fuel stores did rise until March '44 or so.
The problem i am seeing is that the pool rose very slowly; in other words Germany should start with a larger fuel reserve but less production or more usage day-to-day.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/26/2015 10:26:50 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Yup when the German army wenrt moving and the airforce wrnt flying stores rose.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 4:22:28 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

I think your land forces and the Eastern Front box might have more to do with the German oil crisis




You're right, and it was the Ruhr that finally killed the remaining fuel (=synth fuel) stocks. But strat bombing prior to any ground offensive lays the groundwork. Without strat bombing, fuel reserves would have been sky high by the time I crossed into Germany.




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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 6:12:30 PM   
Smirfy

 

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You have to take into consideration when Russia knocks out Roumania as well. I am not convinced we are seeing any noticable effect on German industry through bombing. You can see from the Axis end screen you posted the German units have a surplus in everything except in fuel which as I say is more a result of what your doing on the ground and the EF box. Perceptable dislocation as it stands presently I dont believe will occur at any industrial or Transport target. I would be happy to be proved wrong in fact I would be ecstatic if that was the case.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/27/2015 7:13:48 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 6:15:46 PM   
Balou


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In the meantime and just coming back from the HI industry bombing thread thats my impression too. Strat bombing = VP hunting.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 7:09:44 PM   
Smirfy

 

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The end result of Strategic bombing having no effect is the player will just use the 8th and Bomber Command as tactical airforces to help blast axis units throughout the game, Ive started doing it because Ive found outside "role play" I have achieved no results worth mentioning. Nothing changes in game except a symbol goes red. In the main campaign a strategic air campaign that just harvests VP's and nothing else will hold no ones attention.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 9:10:06 PM   
carlkay58

 

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My game against Pelton had the oil stores dropping BEFORE the Soviets took Belgrade. I will try and grab a screen shot of the oil stores next turn.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/27/2015 11:45:51 PM   
Balou


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Would love to see the graphs to compare my figures (vs AI) with yours (HvH).

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 12:11:39 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


The end result of Strategic bombing having no effect is the player will just use the 8th and Bomber Command as tactical airforces to help blast axis units throughout the game, Ive started doing it because Ive found outside "role play" I have achieved no results worth mentioning. Nothing changes in game except a symbol goes red. In the main campaign a strategic air campaign that just harvests VP's and nothing else will hold no ones attention.

Smirfy, having played GG games before, I will be very surprised if that is true. Have you played both sides, doing nothing but bombing and monitoring GE output and pools? That is the only sure way to know what the code is doing. Even the designer can only tell us what it is meant to be doing...

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 1:20:05 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

I think your land forces and the Eastern Front box might have more to do with the German oil crisis




You're right, and it was the Ruhr that finally killed the remaining fuel (=synth fuel) stocks. But strat bombing prior to any ground offensive lays the groundwork. Without strat bombing, fuel reserves would have been sky high by the time I crossed into Germany.



Exactly the return on an early campaign vs fuel etc is not that bombing alone will empty their reserves, its that when they lose production to the Soviets they are not sitting on a mountain of stored material that can keep them going to the end of the war


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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 2:04:35 PM   
Smirfy

 

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In Balou's case your looking at the end game. In October 44 Germanys stocks were gone, It took the stagnation of the front and poor weather combined ruthless cutting of consumption (I wont say non essential) to survive through to 45. The problem is earlier in the game is if the Germans could not move by rail they did not move to cut consumption. Consumption is too low for fuel and Railway capacity for Germany is too high. The *Strategic* conundrum the German player should be challenged with is not only building up a reserve of oil for the invaision but considering where he should stockpile it near possible invaision areas in the earlier portion of the game. He should also be planning how to defend and repair vital industries. The DDAY landing and response combined with the initial strategic oil offensive wiped out German fuel stocks especially aviation fuel in no time.




< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/28/2015 3:05:29 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 2:36:27 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Smirfy, having played GG games before, I will be very surprised if that is true. Have you played both sides, doing nothing but bombing and monitoring GE output and pools? That is the only sure way to know what the code is doing. Even the designer can only tell us what it is meant to be doing...


Using strategic bombing tactically gives an imediate effect I dont really think there is much point being holed up in Italy, Brittany and the South of France late in the game with the EF box working its magic saying. The German fuel pool is going down when you have lost 2000 transports and cargo ships to air attack.

If anything as I said its *alot* less work and more rewarding ie actually seeing damaged units.


< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/28/2015 3:37:02 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 3:07:27 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

You have to take into consideration when Russia knocks out Roumania as well. I am not convinced we are seeing any noticable effect on German industry through bombing.


Note that oil + fuel went down before Roumania and the Ruhr were gone.




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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 4:13:47 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Would it be possible to put up the Axis screens for turns 30, 65 and 91 please Balou?

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/28/2015 5:14:38 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 4:43:04 PM   
Balou


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Can do. What screens exactly ?

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:10:44 PM   
Smirfy

 

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The Production screens for the Axis on turns 30, 65 and 90 and if possible the turn you invaded France that would be great

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 2/28/2015 7:11:11 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:26:08 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Here is the German starting position




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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:45:28 PM   
Balou


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Smirfy,

t30






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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:47:05 PM   
Balou


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t49 (DDay+1, Invasion between Dieppe-Le Havre)






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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:47:44 PM   
Balou


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t65






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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:48:46 PM   
Balou


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t90 (got no t91, by then it was over)




As mentioned above, I started bombing synt fuel much to late, and by then I went for Blechhamer N+S only. Remaining synt fuel was overrun by ground troops.

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< Message edited by Balou -- 2/28/2015 7:51:36 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 6:52:29 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Thank you very much Balou really good stuff

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 7:11:55 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Thank you again Balou its much as I suspected, the graphs go down but its not effecting anything in game. Turn 65 is the opening of the Ruhr pocket and Fuel in units is in surplus. Supply and Ammo in units remain in surplus throughout the game the vehicle pool is enourmous. So as it stands the most efficient use of your Strategic airforce is to bomb enemy units until victory is achieved. Its not the Axis suffering shortages leading to its defeat its defeat leads to the Axis suffering shortages.Marshall can keep his cheque book in his pocket.

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 8:05:14 PM   
decourcy2

 

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Yeah, that vehicle pool is silly... I think Germany did not use that many vehicles on both fronts from 39-45

< Message edited by decourcy2 -- 2/28/2015 9:05:34 PM >

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RE: Strat bombing of Axis oil & fuel - 2/28/2015 10:00:51 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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Turn 10...gentlemen I believe I have broken the bombing code.






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