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2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/22/2015 8:47:37 PM   
colt6900

 

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I read in the production summary that there is a limit of 2000 points I believe to flying in supplies, at least that's what it said.
However, I don't know if the 2000 means per plane, per flight group or per base?
Does anyone have some experience who can clarify the 2000 limitation?
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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/22/2015 8:57:05 PM   
Yaab


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If you ask about aircraft capacity for supply transport, then it is as follows:

a/c max load
1-3999 = 1 supply point
4000-5999 = 2 supply points
6000-7999 = 3 supply points
8000-9999= 4 supply
10,000-11,999 = 5 supply
12,000-13,999 = 6 supply

If you mean if 2000 supplies is maximum which can be brought by AIR to a BASE in ONE TURN, than I have not heard about such limitation.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/22/2015 11:19:45 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

If you mean if 2000 supplies is maximum which can be brought by AIR to a BASE in ONE TURN, than I have not heard about such limitation.

Nor have I.

But 2,000 pounds = 1 ton = 1 supply point sounds suspiciously familiar. IIRC 1 supply point is the minimum that an aircraft will move in AE, so I'm betting that somebody got things twisted around.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/23/2015 2:02:12 AM   
rustysi


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One supply point for each 2000 A/C capacity rounded down, with a minimum of one supply point per A/C. You can transport as much supply as you can get A/C in the hex, but there may be issues due to overstacking the airbase. Not sure.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 1:29:51 PM   
dr.hal


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I've never heard of a supply limit into a hex based upon a turn. So I agree with the above and say there is no limits other than those imposed by the base and airfield size.

But I DO have a follow-on question. Let's say I have 20 a/c that have 1200 lift capacity each and they all deliver to the same hex, do I only get 20 supply points or do I get an overall compilation of the planes collective capacity and thus 24 supply points?

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 2:41:57 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I've never heard of a supply limit into a hex based upon a turn. So I agree with the above and say there is no limits other than those imposed by the base and airfield size.

But I DO have a follow-on question. Let's say I have 20 a/c that have 1200 lift capacity each and they all deliver to the same hex, do I only get 20 supply points or do I get an overall compilation of the planes collective capacity and thus 24 supply points?


Only 20 supply points are delivered.

Alfred

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 2:59:04 PM   
dr.hal


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Only 20 supply points are delivered.

Alfred



Gosh dangit! I'd say something stronger but this is a polite forum. But then why do transports have odd numbers not equal to 1000? Is this in relation to the equipment the craft can carry (more capacity means larger or more numbers of equipment)?

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 2/24/2015 4:00:53 PM >


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 3:08:33 PM   
Yaab


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I dread 1200 capacity is just chrome.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 3:12:40 PM   
dr.hal


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Me too, I'm trusting that it is related to the maximum size of the object, such as a jeep or anti-tank gun, etc., that it can carry.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 3:15:06 PM   
Alfred

 

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It pays lip service to their historical capacity.  The game code itself is limited and has to be shoehorned into the abstraction.  Every transport plane can carry at least 1 supply point even if in reality the actual capacity was only a few hundred pounds.

Alfred

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 3:20:23 PM   
dr.hal


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Yes that's true, I've seen that "lip service". However as all equipment has load costs, I thought it also might play a part in the capacity of that a/c to load/carry equipment. Hal

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 4:06:22 PM   
Alfred

 

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The load costs are already abstracted.  The capacity of the transport only comes into play in determining the quantity carried, not whether the device can be carried at all.

A DH-84 Dragon with its capacity of 520 lbs can still carry between two airfields a 6 pdr AT Gun which has a load cost of 8.  Very hard to see how that feat could have been accomplished in real life but within the context of an abstraction, quite acceptable.  Or consider squads which have widely diverging load costs but any single one can still be shoehorned into a DH-84 Dragon.

Alfred

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/24/2015 4:30:15 PM   
dr.hal


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Ok, thanks Alfred, that ends this discussion!

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 1:08:47 AM   
colt6900

 

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Thank you for all your comments. They're quite educational, however, I'm still confused on the 20 (I assume points)
limit that you mentioned earlier.
Is that per base receiving supplies, per group flying supplies or something else?

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 1:27:04 AM   
dr.hal


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colt,

I believe the response of 20 was in response to my question of fractional loads. Look at my post where I ask in my example if the 20 planes with 1200 capacity would collectively add up their loads to deliver 24 supply points or 20 (1000 capacity = one supply point). The answer was 1200 capacity still only delivers 20 supply points, any excess is lost. Thus for a plane to carry 2 supply points it needs a capacity of 2000+. 1200 rounds down to 1000. Does that clear it up?

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 2/27/2015 2:28:07 AM >


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 10:08:24 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The load costs are already abstracted.  The capacity of the transport only comes into play in determining the quantity carried, not whether the device can be carried at all.

A DH-84 Dragon with its capacity of 520 lbs can still carry between two airfields a 6 pdr AT Gun which has a load cost of 8.  Very hard to see how that feat could have been accomplished in real life but within the context of an abstraction, quite acceptable.  Or consider squads which have widely diverging load costs but any single one can still be shoehorned into a DH-84 Dragon.

Alfred


It certainly seems from my memory of hauling lots of Japanese units around in a previous game that the size of transport mattered as to whether it would carry the bigger devices or not. Maybe I am remembering this incorrectly, but I'd be curious to know more.

I found this in a discussion where Damian answered an OP about air transport with the quote from the manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Air transport is handled fairly simplistically compared to ship transport.
-----------
Moving troops from base to base:
a) Can't move a non-squad or non-engineer device with a load cost >9

Air dropping troops:
a) Can't air drop a non-squad device with a load cost >7 or if none are ready


Interestingly a Humber IV has a load cost of 8, so can I air transport a Humber IV? And as stated this would allow me to air transport a Valentine III or Stuart tank as well!

Here is a list of devices that are transportable by air (incomplete of course but interesting. I haven't looked yet on the Japanese side):

Humber I = 7
Humber IV = 8
Stuart I and VI = 7
Valentine III = 9
Marmon Harrington = 7
M3A1 Armored Car = 7

2 pdr AT gun = 6
6 pdr AT gun = 8
3.7" mtn gun = 9

37mm AT gun = 6
57mm M1A3 AT gun = 8
75mm M1A1 Pack How = 9
75mm GMC Halftrack = 8
M2A4 Light tank = 7
M3/5 Stuart = 7









Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/27/2015 2:11:17 PM >


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 2:00:10 PM   
obvert


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Here is a list of Japanese devices that can be air lifted (again, not comprehensive):

Type 89A Medium tank = 9
Type 2 light tank = 7
Type 98 light tank = 7
Type 95 light tank = 7
Type 94 tankette = 7
Type 97 tankette = 7
Type 2 Amph tank = 9

75mm T38 field gun = 9
75mm T95 field gun = 9

37mm Type 94 AT gun = 6
37mm Type 01 AT gun = 6
47mm Type 01 AT gun = 7
120mm mortar = 7
70mm mortar = 4
81mm mortar = 4
90mm mortar = 6
150mm mortar = 7


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 2:10:36 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The load costs are already abstracted.  The capacity of the transport only comes into play in determining the quantity carried, not whether the device can be carried at all.

A DH-84 Dragon with its capacity of 520 lbs can still carry between two airfields a 6 pdr AT Gun which has a load cost of 8.  Very hard to see how that feat could have been accomplished in real life but within the context of an abstraction, quite acceptable.  Or consider squads which have widely diverging load costs but any single one can still be shoehorned into a DH-84 Dragon.

Alfred


It certainly seems from my memory of hauling lots of Japanese units around in a previous game that the size of transport mattered as to whether it would carry the bigger devices or not. Maybe I am remembering this incorrectly, but I'd be curious to know more.

I found this in a discussion where Damian answered an OP about air transport with the quote from the manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Air transport is handled fairly simplistically compared to ship transport.
-----------
Moving troops from base to base:
a) Can't move a non-squad or non-engineer device with a load cost >9

Air dropping troops:
a) Can't air drop a non-squad device with a load cost >7 or if none are ready


Interestingly a Humber IV has a load cost of 8, so can I air transport a Humber IV? And as stated this would allow me to air transport a Valentine III or Stuart tank as well!

Here is a list of devices that are transportable by air (incomplete of course but interesting. I haven't looked yet on the Japanese side):

Humber I = 7
Humber IV = 8
Stuart I and VI = 7
Valentine III = 9
Marmon Harrington = 7
M3A1 Armored Car = 7

2 pdr AT gun = 6
6 pdr AT gun = 8
3.7" mtn gun = 9

37mm AT gun = 6
57mm M1A3 AT gun = 8
75mm M1A1 Pack How = 9
75mm GMC Halftrack = 8
M2A4 Light tank = 7
M3/5 Stuart = 7











The Valentine tanks are discussed here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3344350

I guess some other items should have their cost recalculated.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 2:56:48 PM   
obvert


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Aha. Yes. The only issue is that the Japanese can also move tanks through the air, so it does require a conversation with my opponent to limit this for both sides.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 3:14:52 PM   
HansBolter


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Never had occasion to discuss it but in my wholesale evacuation of the entire Dutch army to Timor in my games against the AI I have been surprised to see how many armored cars and tankettes can actually be airlifted.

It's also rather disappointing that my airborne engineer squads can't be airdropped along with the rest of the unit.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 2/27/2015 4:16:54 PM >


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 5:50:14 PM   
Symon


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Do you folks really want a developer response to this? If you get one, it's not going to float your boat. Be careful what you ask for.



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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 6:59:08 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Do you folks really want a developer response to this? If you get one, it's not going to float your boat. Be careful what you ask for.




Sure Symon we are all big boys here.

We well know that your responses can be extremely hot or cold .

Lay it on us.

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/27/2015 7:49:44 PM   
obvert


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It's obviously a mistake, but as I found out playing the IJ there are a lot of devices in big units (like IJA divisions) that have obviously flyable devices (inf squads, eng squads, small arty and AA guns) which do end up being flown as those units are moved and which are not something that should be flyable.

So in this case it's something I'd not looked into and it is worth looking into. I don't know all of the things that could be flown in game. Maybe some small tanks could be put on the largest transports at some stage (like the tankettes), but this is not something that is listed anywhere. So it's good to figure it out somehow and that is what the forum is for.

It's also good to have a chance to make sure this is not happening across the board by mistake.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/27/2015 11:50:01 PM >


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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/28/2015 6:42:48 AM   
GreyJoy


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Tanks flown by air? Never realized that...

i am pretty sure when i try to fly regiments from my divisions (IJA) they always leave behind the pieces of 75mm and all the motorized support...in fact i never tried to fly tank units in or out because i thought you couldn't do it!

Good to know however! It is clearly an oversight and i agree that heavy and big pieces shouldn't be moved by air anywhere...
Thanks for looking into it!

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/28/2015 11:35:27 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Thus for a plane to carry 2 supply points it needs a capacity of 2000+


No, 4000+ to carry 2 supply points.

BTW if you're air transporting tanks around the Pacific, Allies, or IJ please don't be my opponent. I will not attempt any such, and will end a game based on this if my opponent thought it was OK.


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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 2/28/2015 11:54:35 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

It's obviously a mistake, but as I found out playing the IJ there are a lot of devices in big units (like IJA divisions) that have obviously flyable devices (inf squads, eng squads, small arty and AA guns) which do end up being flown as those units are moved and which are not something that should be flyable.


I disagree some of these should be flyable, such as the IJ 75MM Mtn gun (which is air transportable). This thing could be broken down and carried by man or mule. Another similar device is the US 75mm pack howitzer. As far as some devices at least I think they were changed and can't be airlifted, such as the IJ 75MM T90(?) gun which has a load cost of 10 and is what many IJA divisions upgrade to.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: 2000 limit on flying supplies question - 3/2/2015 9:04:17 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

i am pretty sure when i try to fly regiments from my divisions (IJA) they always leave behind the pieces of 75mm and all the motorized support...in fact i never tried to fly tank units in or out because i thought you couldn't do it!


BTW has there been some kinda mod to the load values, because when I opened my game and checked the menu bar for vehicles I didn't find one vehicle with a load value <10. Since the transport load limit is 9 no vehicles should load. Now I'm playing stock with the latest 'official'(1108r9?) patch so...?

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 27
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