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RE: Research Unleashed - Version 2

 
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RE: Research Unleashed - Version 2 - 3/30/2016 11:48:49 AM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabranan

Hi Osito, I've been testing various mods to see how they load up in my mod tool and I found a small issue with yours.

You have some duplicate lines in the napoar.txt file under the races folder, the block starting at "ResearchColonizationCostFactorContinental" repeats itself immediately afterwards, with different values. I'd be interested to know which set you actually intended to use?


I'm impressed that your mod could find this! I have no idea how that duplication got in there. It was certainly added by me, but I was never consciously changing anything in that part of the file. Anyway, I will correct it in the next version of the mod.

Thanks,

Osito

< Message edited by Osito -- 3/30/2016 11:49:51 AM >

(in reply to Sabranan)
Post #: 151
RE: Research Unleashed - 3/30/2016 11:51:03 AM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

for some reason my explorer ships wont auto explore with this mod, kinda strange. any ideas why thats happening?

EDIT: nm i figured it out i had to increase fuel capacity


Out of interest, were you using the 2.2 version of the mod? That has explorers with a higher fuel capacity for the explorers, so there may be less of a problem.

Osito

(in reply to adecoy95)
Post #: 152
RE: Research Unleashed - 3/30/2016 11:55:00 AM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Francoy

Thinking out loud about the Hyperdrive tech tree:

Because this tech tree is very long, would it help the AI if
we shifted the tech tree one column to the left, starting with Reactive Hyper drive down to Efficient hyper drive.
I would put the Enhanced gerax drive one line lower (just under the Efficient hyper drive).
and put the three lines of Hyperdrive linked with Hyperdrive Technology instead of Enhanced gerax drive...

Note:
If i understand how the AI work; it research techs by column, so it won't go too far to the right before researching all other techs in that column.

here are the modified files.


Thanks for that. On the face of it, I can't see any reason not to do it that way. I'll take a look at it, and update the mod to incorporate your changes, if I can. Incidentally, was there anything you changed in the races files, apart from the changes to the research project orders you mentioned in your earlier post on 28 March?

Osito

(in reply to Francoy)
Post #: 153
RE: Research Unleashed - 3/30/2016 12:44:20 PM   
Francoy


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I have made the following change in research:
project 513: change parent to 526 (suggested by Retreat1970)

For the projectorder i used the race style (documented in "Extended AI Improvement Mod.xlsx" of Icemania mod):

- Races with Speed/Agility or Power will research the HighSpeed Hyperdrives
- Races with Balanced will research the Reactives Hyperdrives
- Races with Efficiency will research the Efficient Hyperdrives

< Message edited by Francoy -- 3/30/2016 12:50:27 PM >

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Post #: 154
RE: Research Unleashed - 3/30/2016 2:45:22 PM   
adecoy95


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

for some reason my explorer ships wont auto explore with this mod, kinda strange. any ideas why thats happening?

EDIT: nm i figured it out i had to increase fuel capacity


Out of interest, were you using the 2.2 version of the mod? That has explorers with a higher fuel capacity for the explorers, so there may be less of a problem.

Osito



aah i wasent, ill download that. ty

whats up with the race specific fighter bays (all dimension) having 50% less fighter capacity? have they just not been changed yet or is there a reason for them being that way i dont see

< Message edited by adecoy95 -- 3/30/2016 3:21:39 PM >

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 155
RE: Research Unleashed - 3/30/2016 6:15:53 PM   
Retreat1970


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EnergyResearchProjectOrder ;123, 95, 105, 363, 166, 465, 477, 479, 115, 106, 167, 501, 120, 468, 124, 116, 107, 96, 74, 157, 133, 145, 89, 172, 158, 487, 108, 90, 75, 159, 134, 146, 121, 469, 488, 109, 91, 80, 173, 395, 130, 550, 117, 110, 103, 81, 396, 546, 101, 174, 122, 470

Above is an example of how far I had to script UE2 (soon to be 3). The AI by itself chooses research very poorly. I've watched hours of AI play, and cannot find a pattern to AI research paths. The only way to guarantee smart research is to script it, and scripting makes a hard AI (which most of us want). I just finished scripting 40+ races, and let me tell you, it gets old fast. UE scripts may be compatible with RU though, since UE integrated your research.

On a side note, the AI doesn't upgrade fighter bays in UE (most likely RU too). The higher researched bay shows up on the component side of the builder window, but the AI doesn't upgrade. What I have found by experimentation, is that the AI doesn't recognize an increased repair rate as an upgrade. What I have changed is the number of fighters instead. Normal hanger bays go 4, 6, 8 fighters, and the racial bays go 6, 8, 10 fighters. This has fixed the AI upgrade path for me. This is a suggestion only.

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Post #: 156
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/6/2016 11:41:48 AM   
Osito


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I have supplied an alternative raceBiases file, which makes the empire to empire raceBiases match those devised by Icemania for his AI Improvement mod, rather than the original raceBiases devised by haree78. It's an alternative intended for those who prefer it. See the OP for more information.

Osito

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Post #: 157
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 2:11:07 PM   
AlexCrimson

 

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Is it possible to remove the UI mod, or at least change the resource icons to the vanilla versions? Really do not like the DAS UI icons.

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Post #: 158
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 2:34:47 PM   
phi6

 

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AlexCrimson, if you do not like Das' UI style, I'd recommend using Syrian's resource and component icons, together with Stuff & Bit's UI chromes.

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Post #: 159
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 2:44:11 PM   
AlexCrimson

 

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The style is ok, if a little cartoonish. I just want to use the vanilla resource icons.

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 3:27:39 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexCrimson

Is it possible to remove the UI mod, or at least change the resource icons to the vanilla versions? Really do not like the DAS UI icons.


Just changing the resources is fairly straightforward:

(1) Go the the folder where you have stored the mod, then go to the subfolder \images\ui\Resources.

(2) Paste the contents of the attachment (which correspond to the vanilla resources) into this subfolder, overwriting all existing contents of the folder.

This will get you back to the original resources. There will still be three non-vanilla resources, but these are required as they correspond to the extra three resources used in this mod.

Osito

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 161
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 4:54:35 PM   
AlexCrimson

 

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Works great, my hero.

Ill name my first capital ship after you!

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 5:54:11 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexCrimson

Is it possible to remove the UI mod, or at least change the resource icons to the vanilla versions? Really do not like the DAS UI icons.


what do you mean with "DAS UI icons" ?

in short what is DAS ???

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Post #: 163
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 5:59:36 PM   
Osito


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Take a look here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3616300

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/7/2016 6:03:40 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


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thank you Osito, you're a living legend..

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/10/2016 10:49:18 PM   
Sabranan

 

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Now that I've more or less completed policies in my mod tool another few minor issues have shown themselves:

The Caleph Pirates.txt file under pirate policies has a small typo, the ResearchDesignAutoUpgradeFighters variable is missing its first "R" so it looks like esearchDesignAutoUpgradeFighters.
The DEFAULT.txt file under the pirate policies looks redundant and seems like it's based on an older version of DW, it's got a lot of variables that aren't supported by universe.
A lot of the standard race policy files have multiple ID's in the PrioritizeBuildWonderId variable, as far as I can tell from DW:U itself and the modding guide it only supports one.
The MyPolicy.txt file under the standard race policies is probably redundant too. It's not got anything invalid in it that I can see, but it's missing a big chunk of variables.

Edit: Additional, in the installation zip there's a "vssver2.scc" file under the policy/pirate folder. This file is marked as a hidden, read only & system file, preventing my mod tool from deleting the folder (I've purposely made it not ask for admin rights when its run) which it does as part of outputting changes and therefore causing a crash.

< Message edited by Sabranan -- 4/10/2016 11:03:24 PM >

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/11/2016 1:12:32 AM   
mordachai


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ooooh - your editor can detect crap like that? I'm a gonna have to give it a try!

Also - Hey Osito! Nice to see an old face :)

< Message edited by mordachai -- 4/11/2016 1:14:18 AM >

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Post #: 167
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/12/2016 6:42:40 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mordachai

ooooh - your editor can detect crap like that? I'm a gonna have to give it a try!

Also - Hey Osito! Nice to see an old face :)


Glad to see you're back!

(in reply to mordachai)
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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/12/2016 6:44:31 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabranan

Now that I've more or less completed policies in my mod tool another few minor issues have shown themselves:

The Caleph Pirates.txt file under pirate policies has a small typo, the ResearchDesignAutoUpgradeFighters variable is missing its first "R" so it looks like esearchDesignAutoUpgradeFighters.
The DEFAULT.txt file under the pirate policies looks redundant and seems like it's based on an older version of DW, it's got a lot of variables that aren't supported by universe.
A lot of the standard race policy files have multiple ID's in the PrioritizeBuildWonderId variable, as far as I can tell from DW:U itself and the modding guide it only supports one.
The MyPolicy.txt file under the standard race policies is probably redundant too. It's not got anything invalid in it that I can see, but it's missing a big chunk of variables.

Edit: Additional, in the installation zip there's a "vssver2.scc" file under the policy/pirate folder. This file is marked as a hidden, read only & system file, preventing my mod tool from deleting the folder (I've purposely made it not ask for admin rights when its run) which it does as part of outputting changes and therefore causing a crash.


Thanks, I'll keep this post in mind. Probably won't do an update just for these things, but I will include in the next update (if there is one). But I probably wouldn't bother, if Matrix would only get on and release DW2!

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/15/2016 1:50:03 PM   
adecoy95


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the ancient guardians were scarier than the shakturi in this mod!

im spooked

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Post #: 170
RE: Research Unleashed - 4/15/2016 9:54:56 PM   
Osito


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Yeah, I guess that's because they have something to research, so they can get more powerful than the Shakturi before the latter arrive - well, I never said it would be balanced! :-)

Osito

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RE: Research Unleashed - 4/17/2016 1:37:41 AM   
salemonz

 

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Hey Osito, just wanted to say "thank you" for this mod. It has reignited my love for DW

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Post #: 172
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/17/2016 9:26:56 AM   
Niels

 

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Hello, I am new to this forum after returning to DW after a long break having not so much experience in general. I notice I like thinking about game mechanics more than actually playing games nowadays. Therefore a first post in the modding section... Despite my lack of experience, I like to give some feedback, and I have some questions as well.

Awesome work!. However, always room for improvement exists as several changes in Extended show. I am therefore tossed between using your mod and Unleaded Extended. I might start remodding things no matter which one I choose as a starting point. Naturally, both seem to have their relative strengths and weaknesses. (Btw: the realism mod also seems very promising).

I liked many of your ideas as well as several of the changes in Extended. However, the latter also introduced many things I didn't like.

Eg I dislike the stronger early game economy in Extended II. Although this is easily modded out, I deemed it worth mentioning, because it was the main reason I initially discarded it. Also I think endgame technology costs seem pretty low compared to early techs in this mod. I see that the cumulative tech cost has risen in your mod, but I don't think lowering endgame costs was a good idea given how powerful they are.

However, I think that being able to reach the endgame (super)techs from race specific ones (like you did for the Ackdarian and Sluken) is an improvement in Extended, and would
improve your mod as well. In particular, since races can't research general ones if they have a race specific one. If they could, I could possibly see interesting trade-off choice in going for early strength or endgame strength asap. But now you just have to persue one trail. And feels weird that a few of the more specialized races all end up vastly weaker in their field. The Dhayut are seriously handicapped in the end in their field of choice. The Zenox a little. I also think the Quameno deserve another tech or be able to reach the last one despite the efficiency of the Novacore being incredible. The game is probably decided before it is an issue though. But still I think it lowers immersive value.

Athough I like your reactor research tree far more than the one in Extended, I do think the last reactor is best kept as hydrogen: More elegant and apparently solves supply ship issues.

You handled the pirates very well. Very clever idea. As well as Shakturi starting engines. Might actually a good idea to make a Shakturi only version of the Firestorm, and buff it as is done in the AI mod (I disliked the change here for Boskara given Firestorm becomes a master of all trades). Given overall balance maybe a late game tech improving spying vastly would help to protect the Ancients more and get rid of a savescumming exploit (removing the warp field precursors from the pirates, and making the first ancient drive tech far more expensive would also help btw)).

Although it is easy to change, I on't understand why so many race images are changed from the base game in extended (the Haree one), and in your mod as well. I like eg the original Zenox image FAR more than the modded version: I consider only a few of the extended pictures an improvement.

I think that lowering the output (early) of research labs is one of the better implemented ideas in Extended (Mordechai's one). I do think lowering it even more might even be better. To a factor 5-10 in the beginning (5000, so you really have to invest something for research). As a compensation
for increases costs, science heavy races like Quameno and Zenox could be given a discount by means of a race specific lab: eg Volunteer Lab.

I would like to ask a few questions, because I think of modding everything from scratch myself:

-Did you deny specialized races the general techs in order to improve the AI? Can you think of other possibilities for achieving a similar result?!
-Is it possible to create different templates for different level of technology somehow?! Both for ships as for bases. I would like eg to vastly lower research output of labs without crippling the AI. Otherwise making labs vastly bigger and more expensive, and allowing tech to make it cheaper is another idea which might solve it assuming it is a good idea to begin with.
-I have not playtested enough to be sure: what are the advantages of lowering the speed of the drives so much in beginning? I did like the pace of Improved AI (apart from the overpowered velocity drive). But apparently slower will be even better. Did you do it in order to prevent rushing opps, and independents?! That sounds like a good idea. Does it help the AI players significantly? Will they perform better on average?! I noticed some mods improve spaceport strength in order to reach similar results. Apparently bankrupting the AI. Would a 50% discount to space port maintenance for all races (and doubling the spaceports layout) work?! Or would it still handicap the AI too much given human players can still build smaller (or vastly bigger...) ports if they want.
-When loading your mod in the new Mod Editor (also awesome work btw), I got a lot of errors/warning considering pirates. Are those a sign something serious is wrong with them/the AI, or can they safely be ignored. If the former I am very tempted to recreate your mod from scratch and keep the engines like in Improved AI (except for the Dhayut)).

Thanks a lot!

< Message edited by Niels -- 6/18/2016 3:37:59 AM >

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RE: Research Unleashed - 6/18/2016 11:55:48 AM   
Osito


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Hi Niels,

Thanks for your post. It's nice to get really detailed feedback like that.

To answer your specific questions first:

- I can't honestly say I did anything to improve the AI, other than to include Icemania's AI improvement mod. A lot of the research changes just broke some of the improvements in Icemania's mod. The main reason I denied the AI access to the general trees was to make sure that those who had the specialised trees wouldn't stupidly research the general trees as well. This does mean all the specialised trees are supposed to be better than the general ones, at least up to the end game. I did like the idea of the end game general trees being better, but I guess there ought to be a way for the specialist techs to get to these trees - perhaps there should be a really high cost (and maybe useless) intermediate tech which works along the lines of 'adapt our special tech for the general tech tree", which will then get the race to the powerful end game techs. Wish I'd thought of that when doing the mod.

- I'm not sure that what you're suggesting about different templates is possible to any significant extent.

- The drive speeds are lowered for one reason: to reduce range. It's quite complicated to reduce range in this game, and I'm not claiming that I nailed it with my mod. It always struck me as weird that once you got the first level of Gerax, pretty much the entire galaxy was easily within range. I wanted a slower feel to expansion, and that was the purpose of this change. It may well hamper the AI and also automation, but for me it helps with immersion. The numbers could probably be improved, though.

- I'm not familiar with the mod editor, so I can't help you there. Maybe the guy who made the editor can help. I think there might be a few minor errors - see a few posts above for an example. I couldn't see anything game breaking, but I can't be sure. If you don't do something with pirates, they become pretty useless as a force in the game, because they are so hampered by the reduction in hyperdrive range and speed.

I'm pretty much done with developing this mod further. Stellaris is my 'go to' space game for now, and I'm busy building map mods for that (trying to build the Milky Way galaxy again right now - let's hope that goes better than my DW effort!). And when (if?) DW2 comes out, I'll probably move on to that.

If you're interested in making further changes, why not do a 'redux' version combining your vision of the best features of Research Unleashed and Unleashed Extended, and making any further changes you think would help improve the mods. I still check the board regularly, and will certainly try to respond fully to any questions you ask.

Osito

(in reply to Niels)
Post #: 174
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/19/2016 9:08:56 AM   
Niels

 

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Thank you for your answers.

Ah Stellaris! The announcement of the game weirdly enough retriggered my interest in Distant Worlds... Although I do consider many elements of CK 2 as absolute brilliant ideas,
and I did like EU3 very much, I am also very annoyed by the amount of DLC I have already bought for EU4 and CK 2 (I don't even have a clue how many).
And worse: I do think that so many DLCs lower the overall coherence and focus of a game and kill the AI: when I saw how many things will be added in near future, I decided to
wait a little bit longer and see what will happen. Pictures look very nice though. So, if you say it is already worthwhile...

I am in doubt now about what to mod: in order to not make the Shakturi fight easier a lot of tweaking needs to be done. So I will probably start with
a more focused mod first. Therefore, I will start modding the AI mod 1.05 Ext. And (apart from tweaking a few minor things more to my liking),
my first aim will be to make a few currently underused mechanics having more impact without killing the AI.

Aim:
-Tweak a few pictures (most original race pictures back) and buttons: done
-Make (early) research lab have a far lower output: thinking about 3500 or 5000.
-Make fuel cells significantly bigger: at least by a factor 2 maybe even more
-Maybe: starport maintenance reduction for all races and increasing templates sizes
-Adapt lab prices even more (This also makes it less temping to abuse the private sector mounting most
of the labs)
-Can this be done more elegantly than editing a x% bonus to a common resource like lead, and losing one standard resource bonus?!
-Would this help human players too much given they can postpone having bigger starbases?!
-If it doesn't destroy early game economy fully and cripple AI: half the early mining components output in order to make mining rate bonuses
(racial/tech) better. Assuming half the output of those components: how would you design your mining ships at size 230 and 300!?

Balance changes:
-Add a racial in-between tech in order to prevent the racial 140 fuel cells from happening so early and a little bit more tweaking in this tech tree
-Velocity drive scaled down
-Firestorm back to original values (like your mod); Shakturi get their 1.05 variant
-Use the Unleashed colonization tree
-Use your idea about increased habs/life support
-Ion weapons power increase
-Missile power increase

Adding Tachyon beams: if no endgame goodies I might need a power scaling

A little brainstorming about intelligence changes:
-Make Ancient harder to spy on (possible to only increase their spy defensive by a tech or by a race modifier?!)
-Maybe: slower drives and keep special pirate drives like in your mod: remove std drive techs (if possible) from pirates and make first ancient drive technology
VERY expensive
-Maybe I will do this even using 1.05 drives (I don't like it from a elegance perspective, but I do like it preventing
spying for warp drives early, but it won't help for space construction)
-Ketarov might need something in return: on the other hand space construction has become even more useful given fuel cell and mining components changes
-Maybe split Warp drive tech in different parts in order to make spying less useful
Btw: My favorite solution would be to make espionage give a bonus to the tech rate of current project (or just maximum spyable
research points per time being coupled to research output). That is easier to balance. But I guess that is all fully hardcoded.

Having done this I wil reconsider about what more to use from both your mods (in particular the endgame techs):

-Already decided: I try to keep early thrusters closer to original values
-I was also thinking about adding an expensive theoretical field tech between racial techs and late game tech, which makes sense given they
have to pursue into a new direction

Do you have other suggestions for balance or gameplay?! Has someone already tried this (and decided it was a poor idea to begin with)?
Which early tech changes of your mod are you really recommending adding?!

Thanks a lot!

< Message edited by Niels -- 6/19/2016 9:16:21 AM >

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 175
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/19/2016 12:06:44 PM   
Osito


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I think the features of most importance to me are:

1. The restructuring of the colonisation techs.
2. The restructuring of the troops/armour techs, because with vanilla I never really knew where I was with it.
3. Overall, I think many of the techs were arranged in a better order in my mod than in vanilla, and the structure was clearer.
4. Lowering of hyperspace range.
5. The addition of extra techs helps to give the tech tree a more marathon feel, and even if they don't do very much, at least you're getting rewarded more often. This is compared with keeping the same number of techs as in vanilla, then using a marathon start up option.

Oddly enough, I started off just wanting to add some powerful and game breaking end game techs, then ended up rewriting a lot of the whole tree.

Osito

(in reply to Niels)
Post #: 176
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/19/2016 4:49:03 PM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

Make (early) research lab have a far lower output: thinking about 3500 or 5000.


Be careful or you will cripple the AI.

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 177
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/20/2016 7:29:59 AM   
Niels

 

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Ouch! I am afraid you are right. Humans can simply adapt far easier to different lab outputs if you can't create different design templates (maybe something clever can be done with the size of the labs, but even then humans will probably perform better, although the AI bonuses at very hard and extreme might tip the scales). My idea about base maintainance was also flawed (mining bases change balance too much I guess). So, I think the two most impactful changes are probably not worth it. The former I consider really a pity, because if the AI could handle it, I am pretty convinced, it would make the early game far more interesting. It deserves a little bit more thought I guess, but lab plan not fully discarded yet.

Maybe, I better take your mod as a base, change a few minor things more to my liking, and do something similar with the Shakturi as you did with the Pirates drive techs: so, they arrive with more advanced and stronger special techs to match the overal stronger world. But I can't do that without first more playing your mod far more properly I guess. Shakturi arrive awfully late for testing purposes.... What is your experience of Shakturi tech vs own tech vs ancient techs at the moment Shakturi reveal themselves in your mod?!

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 178
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/20/2016 11:15:39 AM   
Osito


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Someone reported that the Ancient Guardians can become OP. I can't recall whether I restricted them from access to the late game OP tech, but maybe that should be done, if it wasn't.

Otherwise, I don't believe my mod makes the Shakturi easier, because it takes a long time to get to the more powerful tech. Obviously if the Shakturi come late, then you're going to be well prepared for them, but I think in general you'll probably be less well prepared. Obviously, if the Ancient Guardians are stronger, that will make it easier.

I'm being a little vague because it's now quite a long time since I last played the game, and I can't recall the specifics that well.

Osito

(in reply to Niels)
Post #: 179
RE: Research Unleashed - 6/20/2016 12:18:13 PM   
Niels

 

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That makes a lot of sense. Not vague at all.... I think that is easily solved though. Just make sure none of the power techs are level 7, and
give the Mechanoids a huge penalty to science (and/or disallow cetrain high level techs for them), maybe even 90% or so. Not the most elegant thing to do, but maybe it makes sense given they also don't want to expand at all: so they try to keep everything status quo, and are not anymore a science-driven society anymore....

Btw: you have boosted all the thrusters a lot (making the Ackdarian and Sluken races slightly weaker I guess): have you done so to help the AI having better
ship designs?! And are the AI players indeed improved by this?!

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 180
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