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Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 8:48:55 AM   
el cid again

 

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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This is a query and response in which the design intent and general situation
are described FYI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: archita

I readed the notes of RHS mod on Japanese strategy on Russia. I want ask if a sort of successfull operation Kantokuen in '42 in game against allied AI in 105 scenario has political effects on Russia like active part of game ? I mean that if Japan neutralize, with luck and opportunities and many risks in other theatres, Vladivostok in '42, Russia may be pushed to negotiate with Japan or Russia will continue to hold far east divisions active in theatre and eventual partisan activity for whole lenght of war ( in this way several ground forces of Japan risks to be trapped as well with great advantage of allied player in other theatres ) ?


Russia is a special case. RHS in fact has two very different variations - Russians Passive like stock in Simplified RHS and Russians Active - a very different kettle of fish - in Full RHS.

This gives power to the players - you decide which you prefer? But note that AI does not grasp Russians who are Allies but are NOT at war with Japan -
so Russian active scenarios are only practical with humans on the Allied side. Otherwise, AI will start a war on its own!

The REASON we have active Russians is NOT to start a war early per se. It is, instead, to avoid some problems the ALLIES have with
a passive Russia:

1) You cannot build fortifications where you want;

2) You cannot move units where you want;

3) You cannot upgrade air units where and when you want;

4) You are forced to passively watch if Japan decides to invade - you may not
pre-empt and you may not move reserves in a prudent way. This is unfair.

5) You cannot start a war no matter what the situation is. So Japan can
"cheat" and send Kwangtung Army out of Manchukuo with no risk. The garrison
requirement is inadequate. For one thing, there is no rule about airplanes -
they can put all junk in Manchukuo - or even no planes at all - but it won't
trigger any penalty in VP terms - or tempt Russia into invading.

If an invasion by Russia in 1942 is virtually impossible - waiting until 1945 might not really
happen in all circumstances either. The design intent of active Russians (note it IS in AE
as an option to begin with) is to address all these issues. The Allies should not abuse
the benefits of active Russians by attacking Japan in circumstances Stalin would not have
allowed it.

Frankly I don't think Japan can cope with Russia - alone - never mind with Allies. Togo -
when Minister of War (he was a general in the IJA) - said

"Every night I go to sleep worried about Russia. Every morning I wake up without an answer."

Just so. Because there isn't one. Unless the Russians are badly managed. In particular, Russia
has strong defensive terrain where it matters (near Vladivostok) - and it has armor which is
superb compared to the Japanese - both in technical terms and in terms of troops trained to use it.
Nor can Japan afford another source of attrition on its air forces - it would just lose faster.

There IS intense interest in Russia - in particular by players who live in Russia (go figure).
I hope to work in some kind of Russian campaign during demonstration game RHS Test Ten Bravo.
Post #: 1
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 12:01:35 PM   
archita

 

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in note of RHS there are strategy suggestions for japanese player on russia front campaign, my question is what is gameplay purpose for japanese player. I mean that russia campaign, for balance and gameplay, must gives some meaning for japanese player. If allied player uses the "russia card" earlier, this can't be a "easy" achievement to get victory points on japanese player. think that a way to "discourage" early russia intervention can be more fortification levels for japanese bsis of Kwantung Army and few supplies ( off course in '41 and '42 focus of supplies are for great patrioctic war I suppose ).

allied player has many advantages already, a russia card can ruins the "balance", my personal opinon. for gameplay balance purpose If player uses the special russia card, japanese player must have a own special alternative "card" to use in-game ( for example successfully arab riots anti-UK in middle east event that can reduce UK effort in pacific theatre ).



< Message edited by archita -- 2/12/2015 1:02:37 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 7:54:15 PM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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In the real world the reason Japan left the USSR alone and went after the DEA and British holdings was because there was nothing of strategic value to Japan in the Soviet Far East.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to archita)
Post #: 3
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 9:58:55 PM   
archita

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 6/1/2009
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there was the Kantokuen operation planned in july 1941. The idea was based on german performance and hope that soviets leave enough forces by Far East area. The Operation requested a special mobilitation plan and great logistical effort but operation has been cancelled when japaneses discovered very low retirement of soviets. Germans requested the "second front" by Japan and Vladivostok was one of the doors of allied reinforcements for USSR.

off course in game a Russia campaign is suicide for japanese player however the soviet basis are rich of many resources

Vladivostok heavy industries 80,light 160,resource 40

Khabarovsk 120 mine,80 heavy,160 light,40 oil

komsomolsk has 50 oil

irkutsk and Krasnoyarsk are very far but are plenty of many resources...

off course Japan havent real capability of armoured and blitzskrieg warfare and logistical environment of terrain is worst that in western russia for germans...

a russia offensive campaign is "possible" if Japan get K.O chinese front before, in this way Japanese playwr must decide "china first" or south east asia because the resorces are limited and available time is short before of full US deployment in pacific sea...

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 4
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 10:15:15 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: archita

in note of RHS there are strategy suggestions for japanese player on russia front campaign, my question is what is gameplay purpose for japanese player. I mean that russia campaign, for balance and gameplay, must gives some meaning for japanese player. If allied player uses the "russia card" earlier, this can't be a "easy" achievement to get victory points on japanese player. think that a way to "discourage" early russia intervention can be more fortification levels for japanese bsis of Kwantung Army and few supplies ( off course in '41 and '42 focus of supplies are for great patrioctic war I suppose ).

allied player has many advantages already, a russia card can ruins the "balance", my personal opinon. for gameplay balance purpose If player uses the special russia card, japanese player must have a own special alternative "card" to use in-game ( for example successfully arab riots anti-UK in middle east event that can reduce UK effort in pacific theatre ).




In which case I suggest playing a Russian Passive scenario. So far, however, I am surprised that Allies never
even seem to consider "cheating" and misusing active Russians in a game where they can. Note also that the Japanese
DO have the option to start a war with Russia in a passive Russian scenario - and it is grossly unfair. Russian units
are frozen even when the invasion happens - until code "decides" conditions have been met. I also find the abuse
of passive Russians by Japanese players to be widespread: in a Russian active scenario the Allies can decide that
enough is enough.

IRL the IJA ground force is very powerful. IRL very little of it faced the Allies in the war. If forces from
Manchukuo shift over to China, there is no problem with being unable to load on ships or fly. And it can have
a decisive effect on the war effort. Kwangtung Army was the most powerful of all Japanese field forces -
with more HQ and more units than any other. Something needs to keep it in Manchukuo - or at least some risk
should be run if it is "robbed." EVENTUALLY - a bit at a time - Kwangtung Army WAS stripped of its troops
and equipment - so by 1945 it is a shadow of itself. It is trying to substitute militia for line formations
in numbers. They don't do well against a Red Army able to be reinforced from the no longer existing European front.

It remains, the RHS system puts the decision (active or passive Russia) in the hands of the players - by offering
alternate versions of its historical scenarios (101 and 102 are identical except for this; 103 and 104 are identical
except for this as well). Only Japan enhanced scenarios (99 & 105) require active Russians - it is a way to compensate
for a stronger Japanese offensive and presumably reflects the greater incentives the Allies would have to help
each other.

(in reply to archita)
Post #: 5
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 10:21:14 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

In the real world the reason Japan left the USSR alone and went after the DEA and British holdings was because there was nothing of strategic value to Japan in the Soviet Far East.

Bill


IMHO about 90% incorrect. The primary focus of IJA was expansion into Siberia at the expense of the USSR.
Korea and Manchuria had been wrested from Russia by actual conquest. The entire training and technical
development program of IJA was based on the assumption a future war with the USSR was the most likely.
For this reason, Japan became the first nation to adopt diesel engines widely. For this reason, IJA
aircraft were designed to operate in cold weather over limited distances - just about the opposite of
what it would need if it anticipated a Pacific War! See in particular the biographies of Tojo, the
portions dealing with his administration of JAAF development. Also the official history in Japanese
(or consult with resident historians - retired military officers - at the National Diet Library).

The ONLY reason IJA - which dominated the Imperial government - abandoned Strike North was that Russia
didn't have enough oil. [It had some - nearby and easy to seize too - on Sakhalin Island. But not enough.]
Without oil imports, Japan was thrown back on stockpiles - enough for 30 months - an optimistic estimate -
starting when the embargo cut them off (July, 1941). War or peace, the clock was ticking - and when
the stocks ran out - Japan would not be able to fight anyone. So IJA threw in its lot with the Strike
South factions.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 6
RE: Active Russians in RHS - 2/12/2015 10:28:50 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: archita

there was the Kantokuen operation planned in july 1941. The idea was based on german performance and hope that soviets leave enough forces by Far East area. The Operation requested a special mobilitation plan and great logistical effort but operation has been cancelled when japaneses discovered very low retirement of soviets. Germans requested the "second front" by Japan and Vladivostok was one of the doors of allied reinforcements for USSR.

off course in game a Russia campaign is suicide for japanese player however the soviet basis are rich of many resources

Vladivostok heavy industries 80,light 160,resource 40

Khabarovsk 120 mine,80 heavy,160 light,40 oil

komsomolsk has 50 oil

irkutsk and Krasnoyarsk are very far but are plenty of many resources...

off course Japan havent real capability of armoured and blitzskrieg warfare and logistical environment of terrain is worst that in western russia for germans...

a russia offensive campaign is "possible" if Japan get K.O chinese front before, in this way Japanese playwr must decide "china first" or south east asia because the resorces are limited and available time is short before of full US deployment in pacific sea...


This is a very informed posting - even if the English is imperfect - likely because the writer is Russian
and familiar with the strategic issues. He is essentially correct on all counts. Most locations in Russia
have resources - only a few have industries - but the combination results in a lot of supply points and
more than a few HI points Japan can use. Except that Russia can feed oil or fuel as required down the RR
from Europe - but Japan cannot. The trick would be to balance an offensive to seize enough oil elsewhere
along with conquering China and Russia for their resources and industry. If successful it would probably
constitute a valid strategic victory.

The real formula for Japanese success would require the Japanese do something like what they did in Manchukuo -
or in NEI. Japan was able to attract millions of ethnic Russians, Chinese, Koreans and Japanese to Manchukuo -
and made it grow (according to Russian studies) more than any other economy during the great depression - double
digit growth every year. Siberia is still undeveloped - a similar policy of encouraging small enterprise probably
would work very well indeed. Just as Germany might have succeeded in breaking up the USSR if it had granted
autonomy to many local peoples. If both Germany and Japan respected local peoples, they might have linked up
over the Trans Siberian RR - almost immune to Allied attacks - and been in a very powerful strategic position vs
the Allies. But to do that would require Nazi's not be Nazi's - and almost the same for IJA. Advocates of
a Pan East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere did exist - and were serious - and even included Tojo personally. But they
did NOT end up in control of occupied areas (that would have put Foreign Ministry in charge of them). You do
not make yourself tolerable by tossing babies onto bayonets! - a story told by my mother in law from Northern Luzon.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 2/12/2015 11:30:45 PM >

(in reply to archita)
Post #: 7
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