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RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod for DW:Universe

 
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RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/21/2015 12:31:32 PM   
ravincravin


Posts: 132
Joined: 5/20/2009
From: Near Tampa, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Thank you ehsumrell1 for your always very detailed and informative post.

Well shut my mouth. We can now, not only be plundered by the Species 8472 Pirates, but also have our planets blown away by the AI with super weapons! I just can't wait to be fodder for Dr. Frankenstein, ah, I mean Dr. Elliot's new monsters!

Good luck to all of us and hope the AI is too stupid to find and use these wonderful new toys.

May the force be with us, ah, wrong franchise. Enjoy, live long and prosper.






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< Message edited by ravincravin -- 2/21/2015 1:32:32 PM >

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 181
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/21/2015 11:58:07 PM   
Flamingeye

 

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Joined: 2/19/2015
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Thanks ehsumrell1 and again ravincravin

Mystery solved <face palm> feel a bit foolish <blush>


Anyway have decided to start treking anew and this time boldly going into the brilliant scenario (after all the hard work put into it by the modding team I'd be foolish not too)

Thanks again and cheers

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 182
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/22/2015 10:32:32 PM   
Knickers

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 8/23/2014
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It seems like at least a couple of my agents are unbeatable because Rudolph Ransom and Nidell Seyetik have gone on at least 20 intelligence missions against the Glottal Pillagers and have succeeded in every single one. (These agents are making more progress stealing tech then our scientists are at developing tech.)

(in reply to Flamingeye)
Post #: 183
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/22/2015 10:59:10 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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Interesting,I thought it must be a game dynamic related to the shakturi. Now I am very interested in seeing some of the hidden surprises.

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 184
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/22/2015 11:57:16 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

It seems like at least a couple of my agents are unbeatable because Rudolph Ransom and Nidell Seyetik have gone on at least 20 intelligence missions against the Glottal Pillagers and have succeeded in every single one. (These agents are making more progress stealing tech then our scientists are at developing tech.)

The intelligence game dynamics against pirates work completely different than against Empires who have
agents with counter-espionage skills.

_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 185
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 1:44:37 AM   
Weaselstein


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/31/2015
Status: offline
LOVE THIS MOD save one thing. I am a HUGE Borg fan and I have found a few issues when trying to play them. First, they are in the wrong place on the map. They should be no where near the Romulans. Also their starting set up makes little to no sense. They control 5 colonies across half a quadrant, but they don't have the tech to reach, control or support them. They are for all intents and purposes throw away colonies. I like the idea of the Borg Specific tech, but it currently takes too long to research the first transwarp drive when you consider what I have listed already. Some positives: I think the issue of assimilation was handled well. There is only so much you can do with the hard coded parts of the game. From what I have read, balance has been a big focus of this mod. That is an important aspect that not all modders care to pay attention to. So good on ya for that. That said , however, when attempting to create something like a Star Trek mod you are always going to have to deal with people like me who challenge you to explain why you abandoned canon for what we see as no good reason. Unfortunately we usually won't except ANY good explanation. I am not that bad, but I would say you should look for ways to balance the mod through the canon rather than abandon it when it is inconvenient. Not that you probably want to hear from me on the issue but I do have a few ideas how you might handle these issues in the next version of the mod. Modding is hard and often thankless work, so let me reiterate my first statement of this post. I LOVE THIS MOD. Great job and thank you. I look forward to what's next.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 186
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 5:20:43 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

Original: Weaselstein
...There is only so much you can do with the hard coded parts of the game. From what I have read, balance has been a big focus of this mod. That is an important aspect that not all modders care to pay attention to. So good on ya for that. That said , however, when attempting to create something like a Star Trek mod you are always going to have to deal with people like me who challenge you to explain why you abandoned canon for what we see as no good reason. Unfortunately we usually won't except ANY good explanation. I am not that bad, but I would say you should look for ways to balance the mod through the canon rather than abandon it when it is inconvenient...


Hello Weaselstein;
After reading your post I will just say the following. First, thank you for your opinions, compliments
and ideas concerning Star Trek The Picard Era Version 2.0.

Secondly, respectfully speaking, after dwelling thought on the above highlighted portions of your
statements, instead of rebuttal (which I'm not going to dignify a response to) I will just say
please read (or re-read if you did before) post number 132 in this thread.

Finally, and in closing, I just want to say, no, I DON'T have to deal with people like you. I can
pick and choose what I wish to comment on and what I do not. I'm aware that things in the mod that
may not be "canon" or "wrong" to you, another may not even care about, or be completely ecstatic about.

Nevertheless, for you to understand and state that modding is hard and thankless work, but then also
try to tell me how I should balance my mod (from YOUR viewpoint only, ABANDONING my and all others viewpoints)
just makes me reiterate again why we took the approach of what was stated in post number 132.

In closing, again, thank you for your support and kind words. Please continue enjoying the mod, and
the Distant Worlds Universe game, which this mod would not exist without.

_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Weaselstein)
Post #: 187
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 8:47:23 AM   
Weaselstein


Posts: 11
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ehsumrell1

Your response to my post is why I hate trying to communicate across forms. The tone of a message is always lost. From the text of your response and that of post 132 I feel my words cut deeper than they were intended to. I was trying to offer helpful criticism that you might use in future revisions of the Star Trek The Picard Era Mod. There are a few things that you specifically pointed out that I would like to take the time to address directly. The idea that you would even consider rebuttal for even a second tells mean that my message was unclear. In no way do I think that you, or anyone who worked on this mod, have done anything wrong in the design or execution of the mod. These things, as you know, are complex and despite every effort being taken sometimes things get, for lack of a better term, overlooked. I personally have nearly 30 years of experience working on similar projects from "one man shows" to mega projects involving dozens of people, and there has not been one in which something hasn't been pointed out by an end user in a way that made us cringe. The problem, of course, is not that the end user is wrong or ungrateful or just to dumb to get it, but that the end user has no way of knowing what went through your minds and what you considered during the months or years you spent in the development process. And no amount of posts on a forum is going to clear that up for them. It's just the nature of the beast.

As to your comment about not having to deal with "people like me", your statement couldn't be further from the truth. It's true you don't have to comment or respond to anything I (or anyone like me) may say, but by taking on a project where you dabble in a "known universe", you are already dealing with people like me. In fact, I would dare to say that that was your very intention from the beginning. If it wasn't you wouldn't have picked a "known universe" as the theme for your mod. Now this issue of dealing with people like me was more of a comment on the stress you put yourself under while handling this material, with the added stress of how people like me are going to react to your hard work. If someone is reading these forums and taking the time to participate as you do, this is even more true. I made the comment trying to acknowledge that stress. It was not a call to action as if you or anyone owed me anything. I am the one enjoying the fruits of your labor. I have no right to demand anything of you. But as a sign of appreciation I will take the time to offer my thoughtful opinions to you. I don't know any craftsman who doesn't like to hear what people think of his work. And those who truly care will try to offer helpful criticism, even if sometimes it is not as helpful as they intended. I promise you that I have always put a lot of thought into anything I care to say and I am always willing to elaborate on it if requested to do so. This time was no exception.

As to your last comment that I was telling how you ought to balance your mod based on MY viewpoint only and ABANDONING your and all other viewpoints. Your need for emphasis through capitalization was unnecessary, and I used it here only to mirror your original statement without directly copying and pasting. If, as you said and I believe, you were trying for build the best mod possible by focusing on the many and not the few or the one, then surely you would agree that knowing what those who make up the many, which often includes the few and the one, are thinking can only help your efforts. I did not previously nor do I now implicitly or explicitly suggest you abandon any viewpoint. I simply offer my viewpoint to be considered along with the rest in the hope that is helps you accomplish your goal.

I realize this post is far longer than what most would consider to be polite, but I felt that more explanation was needed. I apologize to anyone bothered by its length. Please take the time to consider what I have said and the intention with which I said it. I assumed these forums were for open discussion about the common interest we all share. If, however, criticism is unwelcome I will refrain in the future. Again, thank you to ehsumrell1 and to everyone who has taken the time create for the benefit of others. Sincerely your work is loved and appreciated.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 188
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 3:13:54 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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Thank you for your comments Weaselstein! As I've stated before, I, along with Erik, Elliot, Igard (the originator
of this entire Star Trek modology for DW) and the Trek Team members are all thick-skinned (and we have to be) and
open to ALL comments and opinions. Yours is fully welcome and valid as are all others.

From the description of your experience you provided, I'm sure you're well aware of the philosophy we chose
to use since DW can be played in many different ways. Thus said, my only concern is the volume of contentment
concerning our mod that we've provided. I hope that has been made clear by my statements and position on
this matter.

In the meanwhile, for all readers, please continue to enjoy the fruits of our labor. We thank you for your
support of our project.


_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Weaselstein)
Post #: 189
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 4:25:50 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2426
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Hard and thankless work is right...
Though this community by and large is among the best I have seen with few people rude and nasty.
But this mod has really been thought through and worked on.

Star Trek (being a Jedi) ain't my thing, but this is some very fine work.

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 190
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 4:26:11 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Weaselstein

LOVE THIS MOD save one thing. I am a HUGE Borg fan and I have found a few issues when trying to play them. First, they are in the wrong place on the map. They should be no where near the Romulans. Also their starting set up makes little to no sense. They control 5 colonies across half a quadrant, but they don't have the tech to reach, control or support them. They are for all intents and purposes throw away colonies. I like the idea of the Borg Specific tech, but it currently takes too long to research the first transwarp drive when you consider what I have listed already. Some positives: I think the issue of assimilation was handled well. There is only so much you can do with the hard coded parts of the game. From what I have read, balance has been a big focus of this mod. That is an important aspect that not all modders care to pay attention to. So good on ya for that. That said , however, when attempting to create something like a Star Trek mod you are always going to have to deal with people like me who challenge you to explain why you abandoned canon for what we see as no good reason. Unfortunately we usually won't except ANY good explanation. I am not that bad, but I would say you should look for ways to balance the mod through the canon rather than abandon it when it is inconvenient. Not that you probably want to hear from me on the issue but I do have a few ideas how you might handle these issues in the next version of the mod. Modding is hard and often thankless work, so let me reiterate my first statement of this post. I LOVE THIS MOD. Great job and thank you. I look forward to what's next.


This is "NOT" the start of a flame war or any back and forth argument.

"Starting position near the Romulans makes no sense".........in the Next generation series episode,I believe the 2 part season ender with Shelby the Enterprise is looking at a colony dugup by the Borg near the romulan border.

Widespread colonies.......I take it as the Borg Cube hit various places on the way to earth,where as we all know it got destroyed. Leaving these lesser able colonies to fend for themselves. Total cannon.....no.Close enough for government work sure.

Takes too long to get to Borg specific tech........I play maximum cost of tech and pre-warp start,so all tech is far too fast for my taste but I love the map scenario so I deal with it,you must as well.

Anything else please refer to post 132 in this thread.

Oh yes,back to cannon from my buddy Kirk:

"As for what you want its been noted and logged".

(in reply to Weaselstein)
Post #: 191
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/23/2015 8:00:10 PM   
Weaselstein


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Tophat1812 -- Honestly, this is just a fun comment for the Trekkie/Trekker geeks out there. You're not wrong about the Borg hitting a colony near the Romulan border, but that is only after the Borg were introduced in an early episode. Q had to send the Enterprise to the Delta quadrant for this to happen. That would be the polar opposite of the Beta quadrant where the Romulans exist. As for travel time, well we know from Voyager that it can take an awfully long time to make the trip from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant. That is unless you are using Borg technology. Borg go fast. Anyway that was just meant to be fun.

I really can't get enough of this mod. And I look forward to the future work of the Trek Team. Hell, it's mostly their work that has kept me working on my own mod project (yet another research mod). I think we have an illness because we can't seem to help ourselves.

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 192
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/24/2015 3:29:21 AM   
Chet Guiles

 

Posts: 267
Joined: 6/14/2002
From: Southern CA
Status: offline
Thanks. I am enjoying the expanded mod. Appreciate the hard work that goes into doing this stuff. Super job.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 193
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 1:33:01 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline
Sad news tonight fellow Trekkies and community members!

Mr. Spock is dead!

Leonard Nimoy died today from complications of COPD at the age of 83.

Rest in peace Mr. Spock. The most logical iconic figure I ever knew!

(moment of silence)

Article here: https://tv.yahoo.com/blogs/tv-news/leonard-nimoy-dies-at-83-171803235.html






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_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 194
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 2:44:46 AM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
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From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
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RIP.......GP

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(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 195
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 6:48:25 PM   
Knickers

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 8/23/2014
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Is this supposed to happen or is there something wrong with ship pictures?

The andorians are constructing escorts and frigates that look quite a bit like mine. (I play as the Federation.)

http://prntscr.com/6b15l8

http://prntscr.com/6b18v7

EDIT: Now they are making Capital Ships that are like mine as well.

http://prntscr.com/6b202v

< Message edited by Knickers -- 2/28/2015 8:40:03 PM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 196
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:03:39 PM   
Knickers

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 8/23/2014
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Also, why are these random empires able to make monotoring and mining stations in my territory without my permission?

http://prntscr.com/6b1emk

The Anticans made a monitoring station right there ^

Yes... I didn't give them permission.

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 197
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:11:37 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Is this supposed to happen or is there something wrong with ship pictures?

The andorians are constructing escorts and frigates that look quite a bit like mine. (I play as the Federation.)

http://prntscr.com/6b15l8

http://prntscr.com/6b18v7

Hello Knickers;

There is nothing wrong with the mod. Each races' shipset is contained within its own image subdirectory.
There are two possible concerns. One, the Andorian race file has been internally changed or modified by the
user and the ship pictures index number has been inadvertently labeled to the Federation. Or two, the
policy file for the Andorians has been set to 'enlist' captured enemy military ships that are of higher
tech than their own. Thus, if that happens, and the ship designer is set to automation, it is possible for
the Andorians to build ships of Federation (or any other race similarly) design and size.

I'm not at my home office at the moment, but if I recall correctly, there should be only one race that
is set in its policy file to do that, and that is the Borg (to reflect "assimilation"). If any of the
other Trek Team members read this post soon, possibly one of them can look at the original Andorian
policy file to be certain.

_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 198
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:16:37 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Also, why are these random empires able to make monotoring and mining stations in my territory without my permission?

http://prntscr.com/6b1emk

The Anticans made a monitoring station right there ^

Yes... I didn't give them permission.


That small screenshot does not give me enough information to review. Also, are you playing a custom game or
the UFP scenario map? If the scenario map, then it's possible that the Anticans may have a Mutual Defense
Pact or be under a Protectorate with one of the allies you may have. Just some thoughts. but more info
is needed.



_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 199
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:38:21 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Is this supposed to happen or is there something wrong with ship pictures?

The andorians are constructing escorts and frigates that look quite a bit like mine. (I play as the Federation.)

http://prntscr.com/6b15l8

http://prntscr.com/6b18v7


I just reviewed the Andorians Ship picture file and the image you are showing must be as Ed suggested. That is not the correct image. The file I checked is the latest version by the way....GP

_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
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I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 200
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:40:41 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
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From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Also, why are these random empires able to make monotoring and mining stations in my territory without my permission?

http://prntscr.com/6b1emk

The Anticans made a monitoring station right there ^

Yes... I didn't give them permission.



Are you sure it wasn't there BEFORE you claimed the system? Or maybe they discovered it and took it over. Just spit balling here....GP

I have mining stations in systems owned by another race. I put them there before the other race built a colony there. It was not my territory at the time....GP

< Message edited by General Patton -- 2/28/2015 8:42:15 PM >


_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 201
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:41:12 PM   
Knickers

 

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Joined: 8/23/2014
Status: offline
Well the Andorians didn't seize any of my ships, we've had good relations with them from the start.

In all of the screenshots I provided, including the one with the Anticans, I was playing the UFP Scenario map.

(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 202
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:42:15 PM   
Knickers

 

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No, I watched as they created monitoring and mining stations in a number of places, this happened with the remans among others too. Annoyed, I destroyed their mining stations at the cost of my reputation.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 203
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:45:21 PM   
Knickers

 

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Where do I check to see if the Andorians are using my photos for some reason?

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 204
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:47:18 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
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From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Well the Andorians didn't seize any of my ships, we've had good relations with them from the start.

In all of the screenshots I provided, including the one with the Anticans, I was playing the UFP Scenario map.


OK. Can you upload a save some place where I or a team member can look at it? Or PM the save to me. I will have time tonight after work or tommorow morning to take a look....GP

< Message edited by General Patton -- 2/28/2015 8:47:45 PM >


_____________________________

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AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
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I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 205
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:48:14 PM   
Knickers

 

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Absolutely, I'll upload one on mediafire and give it to you

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 206
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:51:34 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
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From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

No, I watched as they created monitoring and mining stations in a number of places, this happened with the remans among others too. Annoyed, I destroyed their mining stations at the cost of my reputation.


Do they have Mining rights?
That could explain it.
You may want to delete and download and reinstall....GP

_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 207
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 7:52:27 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Absolutely, I'll upload one on mediafire and give it to you

OK. I'll look tonight. AM at the latest....GP

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Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 208
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 8:01:43 PM   
Knickers

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 8/23/2014
Status: offline
Nope they are quite furious with us.

https://www.mediafire.com/?6d185i2fs3k7pq5

There is the link to the save ^

< Message edited by Knickers -- 2/28/2015 9:02:06 PM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 209
RE: VERSION 2.0 RELEASED! Star Trek The Picard Era mod ... - 2/28/2015 8:19:39 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7407
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knickers

Nope they are quite furious with us.

https://www.mediafire.com/?6d185i2fs3k7pq5

There is the link to the save ^


I just DL'd. Will have a look tonight....GP

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(in reply to Knickers)
Post #: 210
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