Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Sino-Tibetan routes?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Sino-Tibetan routes? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Sino-Tibetan routes? - 1/31/2015 3:51:47 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Since some players evacuate Chinese units to India after the fall of Chungking, I wonder if there had been any Sino-Tibetan land routes in 1940s leading from i.e Chengtu to Chamdo/Amdo in Tibet? Right now there is the Chinese Highway 317, whose construction started in the 1950s, which links the two places. Any road prior to that?

EDIT: Some info here:
http://www.cers.org.hk/index.php/en/research/published-research/58-tea-trade-and-transport-in-the-sino-tibetan-borderlands

And here:
http://www.cers.org.hk/index.php/en/research/published-research/58-tea-trade-and-transport-in-the-sino-tibetan-borderlands

< Message edited by Yaab -- 1/31/2015 7:18:48 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 1/31/2015 6:20:16 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Voila!


This is the Tea Horse Road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_tea_route



Wish there were a trail from Chengdu to Lhasa, or at least to Chamdo. Would make the final Chinese evac more interesting.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 1/31/2015 7:27:33 PM >

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 2
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 1/31/2015 8:02:28 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

And this:

http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/2004vol2num1/tea.htm


"During World War II, especially in 1942 when the coastal cities of China and Burma were occupied by the Japanese army, blocking any remaining highways for international trade, the Tea and Horse Caravan Road became a significant transportation link supplying inland China from India.2 According to one source, more than 25,000 horses and mules were used (Fig. 3) and more than 1200 trading firms were to be found along the road. The Russian-born Peter Goullart, a descendant of merchants who had been involved in the inner Asian trade with China, arrived in Kunming, the capital of Yunnan, in 1939. He spent two years there and then moved to Lijiang (Likiang), one of the important stopping points on the Tea and Horse Caravan Road. In his evocative book about his Lijiang years, Forgotten Kingdom, he provides abundant detail about the wartime trade with Tibet over that historic road:
Everything was indented [sic], contracted or bought outright that could be conveniently carried by yak or mule. Sewing machines, textiles, cases of the best cigarettes, both British and American, whiskies and gins of famous brands, dyes and chemicals, kerosene oil in tins, toilet and canned goods and a thousand and one varieties of small articles started flowing in an unending stream by trail and truck to Kaimpong, to be hastily repacked and dispatched by caravan to Lhasa. There the flood of merchandise was crammed into the halls and courtyards of the palaces and lamaseries and turned over to an army of sorters and professional packers. The least fragile goods were set aside for the northern route to Tachienlu [Dhartsedo/Kang-ding], to be transported by yaks; other articles were packed for delivery at Likiang, especially the liquors and cigarettes which were worth their weight in gold in Kunming, crowded with thirsty American and British troops...


It was estimated that some 8,000 mules and horses, and probably 20,000 yaks, were used during Operation Caravan, when all other routes into China had been blocked during the war. Almost every week long caravans arrived in Likiang. So good and profitable was the business that even the rainy seasons failed to stop some adventurous merchants. This was a considerable risk and, in their avarice, they took it. The rainy season is much dreaded in Tibet and on the border, and all caravan and pilgrim traffic usually stops for the duration. The trails become muddy and swampy, rivers and streams swell to incredible proportions, mountains are wrapped in mists and avalanches and landslides become the rule rather than the exception. Many a traveller has been buried forever under tons of rocks or swept to his death by a raging torrent [Goullart 1955: 87-88].

With the defeat of Japan, the bottom instantly dropped out of the Tibet trade, and the merchants who had yet undelivered stocks were devastated. The overland route never recovered."

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 3
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 1/31/2015 11:22:32 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16859
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
I have considered this matter = at the time I added Lhasa - and the "Army" of Tibet -
to the game. I concluded that, because of political and military weapons support by the British, that Tibet is de facto a commonwealth country for AE game purposes. The garrison amounts only to a weak infantry battalion, with a tiny amount of organic support. More broadly and confusingly I found that there were real political complications between China and Tibet, including actual hostilities over disputed territories. And more technical-mechanical, I found that over the distances invovled,
secondary roads or, in this case, more appropriately a trail, would not function. And there was no justification to put in a rail line or primary road - none of which would coordinate with map art as it exists. Code very much limits the distances over which supplies will flow by the nature of the infrastructure. Further North, in the area just South of Mongolia, there is a "primary road" in map art and pwhexe.dat code which is wholly unjustified in historical terms - probably so that units and supplies might move in the Sinkiang area - which admittedly was an ancient as well as modern route (known as "the Northern Silk Road"). I was reluctant to put in a long distance, strategic road of any sort not indicated by map art.

This thread begins with the curious statement

quote

Since some players evacuate Chinese units to India after the fall of Chungking,

End quote.

I will confess I have never seen an attack on Chunking, never mind its capture,
and I am not at all certain it will ever happen in RHS? RHS features no less than five complete reworks of China and Chinese forces, both because of the large numbers and kinds of units missing in stock, and because of technical problems (they had no planning at all, low morale, low readiness, very high rates of disorganization, many missing squads and a system that never permitted meaningful rebuilding of units) and a general logistical inability of China to support the original, never mind the RHS expanded, forces. China had no navy whatever, no Marines, and very little air force - in particular so little aircraft support that historical missions of the AVG were not possible in game terms. All of that has changed, and in the last test game the Japanese were unable to capture ANY significant objective in spite of serious campaigns against Sian, Changsha and the SW "corner" at Nanning. Tests six and eight did demonstrate a logistical collapse after the capture of Changsha, one from which it was doubtful the Chinese could ever recover. Instead of using tricks, I used research to find what really was in the Chunking and Kunming area? Why, for example, could they fuel industry in the absence of an oilfield? Turns out there were both oilfields and other kinds of industrial fuel. And a good deal more significant cities with a great deal more local industry producing supplies. The strategic depth of China, and its military strength, renders it about an order of magnitude stronger than it was to begin with in stock. I have continued to ask the Japanese Tag Team to try to conquer it - just to see if it can be done? But I don't expect them to succeed.

You wrote privately

quote

Perhaps we could have a trail from Chengdu to Lhasa, Tibet in the RHS.
What do you think?

end quote

In principle we could. At least I could create one in pwhexe.dat files. The problem with that is that RHS has no less than 28 pwhexe.dat files - so it would involve a lot of work. But I have done that for the for things like the Baikal Amur Mainline - which in historical scenarios mainly exists as a trail (the foundation for the tracks sans the actual steel) for most of its length. I could do it. What I cannot do (at least not without taking time to learn how - and finding that time) is map art. There are already many places I want to add or delete roads and railroads - and I think trails should be added (they matter both to history and to RHS) - the Kokota Track for example. If I had a helper who could revise map art with respect just to roads and rail lines, I would be more disposed to consider the project.

The more difficult problem is what "road" to draw and code? A trail simply would not work - although it might be the closest to reality - these were routes for pack animals - not for wagons or trucks. A secondary road might be closer to modeling the limited logistic value and movement rates of a land combat unit along the route. But that would require addition of more towns to really work well - and RHS is very slot limited. That would force trade off decisions - what to get rid of to create them? Again - it can be done - and if there is a lot of interest - and map support - I would consider doing it.
RHS is about 50% ideas from the broader community - but I always did at least 50% of the work and now do 100%.

My review of Tibet surprised me in that I concluded the original Matrix decision NOT to put ANYTHING AT ALL there is substantially justified. In the end I added Lhasa because of its possible significance as an aircraft ferry point - if a base existed and could be expanded and if there was a small amount of local supply. The main reason to add the garrison was to contest its capture by airborne assault. Since I added it, I am not aware of a single game in which it has been used (if there is one, please let me know). One factor I use in deciding what to do, what to expand, and rarely what to get rid of is how much it actually gets used by players? I EXPECTED to add some kind of roads from India and China - and identified possible routes for them (hex by hex in notes). I was UNABLE to justify the work required to do so because it is so extensive, because I cannot now generate the map art, and because it would either require exaggeration of the route (as we have in Sinkiang with its primary road) or addition of towns along the way (so units do not die of attrition during transit). It remains a low priority possible future development - unless interest and/or help is forthcoming.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 2/1/2015 12:25:46 AM >

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 4
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 9:47:13 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Supply cots per 1 hex of trail is 10, thus after 10 hexes 100 supply should drop to 0. One base every 9 hexes will mean 10 supply is left. This would mean adding two bases: Qamdo and an oasis base on the road to Chengdu.

Anyway, my thoughts concerned the stock/Babes scenarios. A downfall of China in RHS mod is, of course, unlikely.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 5
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 2:25:03 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again



This thread begins with the curious statement

quote

Since some players evacuate Chinese units to India after the fall of Chungking,

End quote.

I will confess I have never seen an attack on Chunking, never mind its capture,
and I am not at all certain it will ever happen in RHS? RHS features no less than five complete reworks of China and Chinese forces, both because of the large numbers and kinds of units missing in stock, and because of technical problems (they had no planning at all, low morale, low readiness, very high rates of disorganization, many missing squads and a system that never permitted meaningful rebuilding of units) and a general logistical inability of China to support the original, never mind the RHS expanded, forces. China had no navy whatever, no Marines, and very little air force - in particular so little aircraft support that historical missions of the AVG were not possible in game terms. All of that has changed, and in the last test game the Japanese were unable to capture ANY significant objective in spite of serious campaigns against Sian, Changsha and the SW "corner" at Nanning. Tests six and eight did demonstrate a logistical collapse after the capture of Changsha, one from which it was doubtful the Chinese could ever recover. Instead of using tricks, I used research to find what really was in the Chunking and Kunming area? Why, for example, could they fuel industry in the absence of an oilfield? Turns out there were both oilfields and other kinds of industrial fuel. And a good deal more significant cities with a great deal more local industry producing supplies. The strategic depth of China, and its military strength, renders it about an order of magnitude stronger than it was to begin with in stock. I have continued to ask the Japanese Tag Team to try to conquer it - just to see if it can be done? But I don't expect them to succeed.





I confess I only play solitaire...but I too have never seen Chungking fall, any scenerio,(including the original WITP and RHS.
I have always managed to retain Rangoon and keep Chungking supplied by air...


_____________________________




(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 4:08:16 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
I remember Bullwinkle trekked his Chinese units to India in his AAR.

The reason I started this thread is that once the Japanese invest Chunking Basin and take Paoshan, the Allied player is trapped in the Chungking Basin with his back against the Himalayas. I took for granted, that the snow-capped mountain hexes between Chengdu and India, having no roads and no cities, were a proper reflection of geographical conditions there. My knowledge of the geography of this region was, until a few days, almost nil, and I had been 100% sure that Paoshan - Chungking minor road was the only road leading out of this trap. Obviously, I was mistaken. Would love to see the Horse Tea Road implemented as a trail route in the stock/Babes scenarios.



< Message edited by Yaab -- 2/1/2015 5:23:04 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 7
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 4:52:54 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

More WWII facts here:

http://www.chinatravel.com/facts/tea-and-horse-caravan-road.htm

Seems the route was the civilian equivalent of the Burma Road/Hump air bridge.

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 8
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 4:57:48 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6380
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: online
This would not be a good idea.

For it to work, not only would the pwhex file need to be altered to remove the no access code, but as you noted additional bases and transportation links would be required.  Those same links would allow the Japanese PanzerArmee to go through the Himalayas and strike directly at New Delhi or Rawalpindi.  Any resemblance to historical reality would exist only in the mind of a player who is trying to game the code.  Not to mention how badly it would unbalance gameplay.

Alfred

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 9
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 5:05:39 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Right, I didn't think about it. The route basically allows for pack animals and men, but the code doesn't make this distinction between them and motorized vehicles. Still, those tiny Japanese tankettes...


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/1/2015 5:56:09 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again



This thread begins with the curious statement

quote

Since some players evacuate Chinese units to India after the fall of Chungking,

End quote.

I will confess I have never seen an attack on Chunking, never mind its capture,
and I am not at all certain it will ever happen in RHS? RHS features no less than five complete reworks of China and Chinese forces, both because of the large numbers and kinds of units missing in stock, and because of technical problems (they had no planning at all, low morale, low readiness, very high rates of disorganization, many missing squads and a system that never permitted meaningful rebuilding of units) and a general logistical inability of China to support the original, never mind the RHS expanded, forces. China had no navy whatever, no Marines, and very little air force - in particular so little aircraft support that historical missions of the AVG were not possible in game terms. All of that has changed, and in the last test game the Japanese were unable to capture ANY significant objective in spite of serious campaigns against Sian, Changsha and the SW "corner" at Nanning. Tests six and eight did demonstrate a logistical collapse after the capture of Changsha, one from which it was doubtful the Chinese could ever recover. Instead of using tricks, I used research to find what really was in the Chunking and Kunming area? Why, for example, could they fuel industry in the absence of an oilfield? Turns out there were both oilfields and other kinds of industrial fuel. And a good deal more significant cities with a great deal more local industry producing supplies. The strategic depth of China, and its military strength, renders it about an order of magnitude stronger than it was to begin with in stock. I have continued to ask the Japanese Tag Team to try to conquer it - just to see if it can be done? But I don't expect them to succeed.





I confess I only play solitaire...but I too have never seen Chungking fall, any scenerio,(including the original WITP and RHS.
I have always managed to retain Rangoon and keep Chungking supplied by air...




In stock and DaBabes, it is almost impossible to prevent a competent Japanese player from taking Chungking. If they want it that is..

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 11
RE: Sino-Tibetan routes? - 2/13/2015 3:07:18 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4248
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

Full text of "Forgotten Kingdom" by Peter Goullart is available here:

http://pratyeka.org/books/forgotten_kingdom/

The author was the witness of the wartime trade along the Lhasa - Chengdu route.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 12
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Sino-Tibetan routes? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.144