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RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 1:14:59 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Lots of talk on China. Here is the Report to the US Congress:

https://news.usni.org/2017/05/30/report-congress-on-china-naval-modernization

Lots of interesting stuff, will take a while to get through.

B

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 2221
RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 1:58:55 PM   
tomrlutong2

 

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Is there a hypothetical ship design thread/board somewhere? Don't want to hijack this thread, but...

quote:

As I understand, China has arrived at the conclusion quite early that there needs to be a large, survivable missile-delivery platform that can both survive getting into the firing range of a CSG and launch a volley size large enough to overwhelm the CSG's Aegis defenses. Distributed lethality concepts of building many small SSGs are not suitable because the sheer numbers required would cost more than a few large arsenal ships, and the coordination of so many small distributed assets under ECM conditions would also be prohibitive. Not to mention, China isnt the USN and doesnt have all of the Pacific as maneuvering and concealment space to hide their distributed assets - China only has three small puddles of water contained within the 1st Island Chain. So, the high-speed semi-submersible arsenal ship might be the only solution, even if it means to put all eggs in one basket. But at least this basket is more survivable and easier to coordinate and to pull saturational attacks with that many smaller platforms that require high degree of coordination and datalinking.


The economics of scale here are fascinating. How does cost per tube change with ship size? I assume that range and speed are big factors there, with long range pushing for larger ships. So if China is willing to accept a semi-static defense in their lakes, with slow, relatively short ranged ships/boats basically station keeping, does that make smaller ships more economic? I could see the US figuring out a way to deal with 4 100 tube ships, but 100 4 tube ships seems like a much harder problem, especially once you start mixing in decoys.

I probably underestimate the difficulties of managing a drone swarm in ECM environments, but nearly everything about current naval tech makes me believe that you want your platforms to be as small as possible.

One thought is that China doesn't really need to make saturation attacks. Since they'll always be able to bring more missiles than any adversary, making the fight about logistics and attrition plays to their strength. That might even be less escalatatory: an endless series of small attacks can empty the US's missile tubes until they have to turn back or sue for peace without the political cost (to both sides) of sinking a carrier.

quote:

When this ship indeed appears in Bohai Shipyard the next few years, I would consider this an official declaration of war against the US.


This type of ship appears especially synergestic (dirty word, I know) with their upcoming seabed arrays. Picture the next generation of AAAD: ASW through fixed sensors and runway launched torpedo drones, AAW from semi-submersible missile barges with targeting from AEW aircraft. The inside of the 1st island chain makes a pretty good bastion. I wouldn't say its a declaration of war against the U.S., but it would be a message they're getting ready to enforce their territorial claims.


(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 2222
RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 3:13:43 PM   
Hongjian

 

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I think this is a relevant discussion, since the US is also studying the arsenal ship concept anew, with the San Antonio-class as platform for 288 Mk-57 VLS cells and BMD features. And their earlier study on submersible arsenal ships yielded the Ohio-class SSGNs as result, which seems quite sensible, if you just want to have the arsenal ship for land-attack anyway. Indeed I think that there is considerable cost savings of having a few ships with a lot of VLS cells compared to have a lot of ships with few VLS cells, since you do not have to pay for non-ordnance/VLS-cell related redundancies anymore in the latter case. I think this is the main reason why many small combattants are on the way out - just as there are hardly any role for FACs anymore aside of littoral combat. Larger hull also means more endurance and longer range as well.
I personally believe that both the USN and PLAN will find a sweet-spot between the survivability advantage of many smaller assets with weak firepower and endurance to the high-risk but high-reward platforms of large displacement with a lot of firepower. Giant Battleships armed with railguns and thousands of missiles wouldnt be built, but neither will be 200 ton FACs with few weapons and low endurance. Some warship between the 10k to 20k ton would probably be the sweet spot.

Having digged a bit more in the earlier leaks about this concept, it seems that this arsenal ship would be designated "9XX 搜攻潜舰" or "Type 9XX Search and Attack Submersed Ship". Note that it uses 舰 (Jian/Ship, implying being a properly large ship) and not 艇 (Ting/Boat, which is more associated with Submarines 潜水艇). Interestingly, the "Search" indicates that it might have more on-board sensors than previously thought (previous thinking was that it is basically a large submersible Type 022 FAC, as in a blind missile launch platform totally reliant on off-board sensors). But just as the original leaker claimed, it will also be able to conduct all the roles a DDG could: AAW, ASW, ASuW and Land Attack. So, maybe one should think of this more as a submersible Type 055 Guided Missile Cruiser and less of an "Arsenal Ship" in its most narrow sense.

It really sounds too Sci-Fi to be true, but from the floating models of Prof. Dong Wencai, we can see that the main concept being a hydrofoil-equipped mono-hull ship with potentially high speed.
https://picload.org/image/rioclppl/2017-05-29-la-chine-a-t-elle-f.jpg
https://picload.org/image/rioclppi/2017-05-29-la-chine-a-t-elle-f.jpg
https://picload.org/image/rioclppw/2017-05-29-la-chine-a-t-elle-f.jpg


(in reply to tomrlutong2)
Post #: 2223
RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 3:25:54 PM   
kevinkins


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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4557934/Russia-successfully-launches-unstoppable-cruise-missile.html

FYI

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 2224
RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 4:54:03 PM   
Dysta


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While all the futuristic massive war machine concepts are giving quite of feat, this little board with powerful fans could change the rule of Spec-Ops and even the regular army's combat altitude (not a typo, see the link why):

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/army-eyeing-personal-hoverboard-reach-192114134.html

_____________________________


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Post #: 2225
RE: Naval and Defense News - 5/31/2017 6:36:54 PM   
Hongjian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4557934/Russia-successfully-launches-unstoppable-cruise-missile.html

FYI



So soon?!

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 2226
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 1:06:02 AM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4557934/Russia-successfully-launches-unstoppable-cruise-missile.html

FYI



So soon?!

Worse, it's a skimmer. Even the laser is faster, the horizon will limit to only 12nm, and the missile has 1nm per second converted from an hour. How laser can stop two leakers in 12 seconds?

_____________________________


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Post #: 2227
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 1:48:18 AM   
Hongjian

 

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Well, I doubt that this can be a skimmer. But even when it is high-flying, the speed alone will reduce the reaction time for lasers and missile defense.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2228
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 2:57:23 AM   
Dysta


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Whoops, it's a LACM, well that could be different.

---------

Recent photojournalism shows the Type 901 AOR conducted UNREP to Type 071 LPD during the sea-trial:

http://3g.china.com/act/military/11172988/20170601/30618097.html (3 Relevant photos)







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Post #: 2229
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 2:26:50 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta


Recent photojournalism shows the Type 901 AOR conducted UNREP to Type 071 LPD during the sea-trial:



Any idea what the 901's name is?

Mike

_____________________________


(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2230
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 4:03:36 PM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta


Recent photojournalism shows the Type 901 AOR conducted UNREP to Type 071 LPD during the sea-trial:



Any idea what the 901's name is?

Mike

3 months ago a fan said the first 901 AOE will be named "Hulunhu" (a lake name), with Pennant number "965". Oh, and my mistake to call it an AOR.

http://www.weibo.com/5202991931/EyOQ5Dbny?from=page_1005055202991931_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment#_rnd1496332839548 (Simplified Chinese, Earliest Link)
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/status/864456916378021891

< Message edited by Dysta -- 6/1/2017 4:05:59 PM >


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Post #: 2231
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/1/2017 9:13:28 PM   
Hongjian

 

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The PLAN sure has a need for these large 901 AOEs. Not even commissioned yet and already doing UNREP.

Also, Hulun Lake is a lake in Inner Mongolia... Does this mean that this 901 AOE will serve the North Sea Fleet, at least nominally?

In any case, the latest leaks by Pop3 indicate that the long awaited 1st hull Type 075 LHD (with capacity of 28 helicopters) is already under construction in Hudong Shipyard. They will definitely need more than 2 901s. One for each carrier fleet, as well as one for each LHD.

In other news:

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/870229043399933952
quote:

Rainbow solar UAV just completed its near space flight test at an altitude of 20 km (65,000 feet).







Of course this 40m wingspan test platform has only very low payload capacity, but this technology is quite promising for future military purposes as well...


< Message edited by Hongjian -- 6/1/2017 9:14:41 PM >

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2232
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 5:35:25 AM   
Dysta


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Speaking of drones, while US FAA ditched the drone registration policy, China has began the regulation at the beginning of June:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170517/06563537389/china-to-require-drone-owners-to-register-just-as-similar-us-requirements-are-struck-down.shtml

Also the handheld anti-drone jammer, or the drone gun, made an debut use in Wuhan marathon run too:

https://www.thedigitalcircuit.com/police-in-china-use-anti-drone-guns-during-wuhan-marathon-run/

_____________________________


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Post #: 2233
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 6:54:52 AM   
Dan109

 

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USS Ford Accepted - without Trump's demand of using Steam Catapults - long ways to go though, IOC by 2020.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=100797

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2234
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 6:58:23 AM   
Dan109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Speaking of drones, while US FAA ditched the drone registration policy, China has began the regulation at the beginning of June:




SAD - well, if USA ever invaded by Chinese, there will be lots of creative civilian airborne weaponry....but more likely, used in a terrorist attack on US Soil

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2235
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 9:50:08 AM   
Dan109

 

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Joined: 4/27/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

The PLAN sure has a need for these large 901 AOEs. Not even commissioned yet and already doing UNREP.

Also, Hulun Lake is a lake in Inner Mongolia... Does this mean that this 901 AOE will serve the North Sea Fleet, at least nominally?

In any case, the latest leaks by Pop3 indicate that the long awaited 1st hull Type 075 LHD (with capacity of 28 helicopters) is already under construction in Hudong Shipyard. They will definitely need more than 2 901s. One for each carrier fleet, as well as one for each LHD.

In other news:

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/870229043399933952
quote:

Rainbow solar UAV just completed its near space flight test at an altitude of 20 km (65,000 feet).







Of course this 40m wingspan test platform has only very low payload capacity, but this technology is quite promising for future military purposes as well...



35 year old copied US technology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Pathfinder

Next year, China invents 'laser compact disc'

< Message edited by Dan109 -- 6/2/2017 9:51:53 AM >

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 2236
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 11:22:13 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta


Recent photojournalism shows the Type 901 AOR conducted UNREP to Type 071 LPD during the sea-trial:



Any idea what the 901's name is?

Mike

3 months ago a fan said the first 901 AOE will be named "Hulunhu" (a lake name), with Pennant number "965". Oh, and my mistake to call it an AOR.

http://www.weibo.com/5202991931/EyOQ5Dbny?from=page_1005055202991931_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment#_rnd1496332839548 (Simplified Chinese, Earliest Link)
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/status/864456916378021891


Thank you!

Mike

_____________________________


(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2237
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 12:12:29 PM   
Dysta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan109

35 year old copied US technology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Pathfinder

Next year, China invents 'laser compact disc'

Be thankful China isn't copy this one.

What Hongjian suggested is the military potentials, but I doubt it can be offensively used, given by the slower speed and lower loadout weight than Global Hawk. It may works like an atmospheric satellite like what Pathfinder did, but Facebook want it to be used peacefully.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 6/2/2017 12:13:56 PM >


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Post #: 2238
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 12:32:21 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan109


35 year old copied US technology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Pathfinder

Next year, China invents 'laser compact disc'


Reminds me more of the UK Zephyr

https://airbusdefenceandspace.com/our-portfolio/military-aircraft/uav/zephyr/

Mike




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Post #: 2239
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 12:39:18 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan109


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Speaking of drones, while US FAA ditched the drone registration policy, China has began the regulation at the beginning of June:




SAD - well, if USA ever invaded by Chinese, there will be lots of creative civilian airborne weaponry....but more likely, used in a terrorist attack on US Soil


I'd be interested to know how this could even be remotely enforceable given detection challenges and I'm guessing that's with the FAA ditched. Need to figure out a way to cheaply detect everywhere and safely bring them down. My guess is it will be a technology developed and not 50000000 unionized civil servants walking about watching (hopefully LOL).

Mike

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Post #: 2240
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/2/2017 10:50:36 PM   
Dan109

 

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Well, as an example with government regulations with Cell Phones, its in the regulation of the design. Cellular Systems have been designed since 2G days, to give Priority Access to government cell phone use, which even trumps E911 calls. If police, rescue, fire etc need it, its more important than teenage girls talking, and is more important that thousands of people calling E911 to report the same single occurrence emergency.

Therefore the government needs to regulate that civilian drone manufacturers must comply to a design which allows for easy detection and quick/safe hijacked/forced landing. But I think its stupid to not force "registration" of a drone. I have to register my SailBoat, and a civilian drone can more easily kill a lot of people than my 12m 8t vessel with a max speed of 7kt. We need to know who has them, and what type they are to better understand security risk.

Yes, I do not want someone on a terrorist watch list to be able to buy a drone, even at the expense of alerting the person that they are on such a watchlist.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 2241
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/3/2017 6:32:50 PM   
DeSade

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4557934/Russia-successfully-launches-unstoppable-cruise-missile.html

FYI


So soon?!


This article cites Sputnik as its source, so most probable answer is "no" :P


(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 2242
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/4/2017 3:59:13 AM   
Dysta


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Non-military. The megaproject like the largest aquamarine farm has built in China and about to deliver it to Norway. Commercial seasurface constructions become a trend after the oil rigs and sea windmills:

https://youtu.be/gmoDB2q07TU

< Message edited by Dysta -- 6/4/2017 4:49:04 AM >


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Post #: 2243
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/4/2017 10:41:48 AM   
Dysta


Posts: 1892
Joined: 8/8/2015
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quote:

News-leaked Semi-submersible warship concept

Finally it was caught an attention by Popular Science, and it spreads to other journals with lots of viral reactions and comments:

http://www.popsci.com/futuristic-chinese-warship-concept-is-making-waves

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-apos-massive-warship-future-132043454.html

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/06/china-developing-arsenal-ship-that-would-have-a-high-speed-hydroplaning-mode-and-submersible-capability.html

< Message edited by Dysta -- 6/4/2017 11:15:27 AM >


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RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/4/2017 11:53:16 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 1865
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: online
Esoteric and not really warfare related:

On June 1 2017, a signing ceremony for the Jiayuguan 2017 China-Russia Chess Grandmaster Match was held at the China Chess Academy.
This match will be between Russian GM Alexander Grischuk and Chinese GM Yu Yangyi and held between July 19-25 in the city of Jiayuguan, a very important city on the silk road economic belt in China encompassing their "Belt And Road" strategy.

Geopolitically interesting. Both Russia and China try to foster notions of intellect though expertise in chess.

Kevin


(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2245
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/5/2017 9:17:08 AM   
Dan109

 

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Joined: 4/27/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

quote:

News-leaked Semi-submersible warship concept

Finally it was caught an attention by Popular Science, and it spreads to other journals with lots of viral reactions and comments:

http://www.popsci.com/futuristic-chinese-warship-concept-is-making-waves

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-apos-massive-warship-future-132043454.html

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/06/china-developing-arsenal-ship-that-would-have-a-high-speed-hydroplaning-mode-and-submersible-capability.html


Very interesting but I don't see a tactical difference between this future ship and a large SSGN. US Navy Ohio Converted SSGNs can carry 154 tomahawks. Not sure if it's proper VLS - if it is, I'm sure it could launch SM2,ESSMs,etc from the surface (targeting done by other assets). And then submerge, and be one of the most quiet subs in the world. US has 4 of them now, and as Columbia SSBN-Xs get built, more Ohios can be converted. But yeah, China atleast getting smart with large missile carriers.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2246
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/5/2017 10:52:07 AM   
Dysta


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Qatar Crisis in less than 24 hours. Extremely High scenario opportunity:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-04/saudi-arabia-egypt-uae-bahrain-cut-diplomatic-ties-block-all-borders-qatar

_____________________________


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Post #: 2247
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/5/2017 11:57:50 AM   
xavierv


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I've been away for the last month, covering several naval defense shows.
Here is our video coverage.

IDEF 2017 in Turkey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAmp6_t2bMk
In this video, coverage of:
- Istanbul I-class Frigate
- Aselsan CAFRAD radar for TF2000
- Aselsan HIZIR-LFAS towed sonar
- Aselsan ORKA Torpedo
- Aselsan ZARGANA decoy launcher for submarine
- Aselsan Albatros-T USV target boat
- Aselsan PIRI IRST
- Aselsan STAMP-2 RWS
- Aselsan TUFAN rail gun
- TAIS / SEDEF Shipyard LHD for Turkish Navy
- STM TF-4500 Frigate
- STM Fast Attack Craft FAC 55
- ARES Shipyard ARES 100 SAT special operations boat

IMDEX Asia (Singapore)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgxuO0lCgMc
Maritime Review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb5dtRzcmzg
In this video, coverage of:
- ST Marine Vanguard series
- ST Marine Venus USV
- Republic of Singapore Navy A244/S Light Weight Torpedo
- Republic of Singapore Navy ScanEagle UAV
- Republic of Singapore Navy Protector USV
- Republic of Singapore Navy Combatant Craft Medium
- Republic of Singapore Navy K-Ster Expendable Mine Disposable System
- Deep Trekker ROV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW7O-Hc5G58
Day 2 at IMDEX Asia 2017 in Singapore. Navy Recognition spent the day at Changi Naval Base for the Warships Display. We bring you an overview of the vessels presence this year and we focused on USS Sterett, USS Coronado, HTMS Chakri Naruebet and FS Prairial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB5cyaMV4KY
In this video, coverage of:
- Rafael C-Dome
- Saab Next Generation Anti-ship Missile
- Saab Swordfish MPA
- TKMS Type 218SG for RSN
- Bharat Dynamics / DRDO Varunastra Heavyweight torpedo
- Leonardo systems aboard PPA
- MBDA Sea Venom anti-ship missile

UDT (Undersea Defence Technology) in Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YyP5Zuzpw
In this video, coverage of:
- SAAB MCMV 80 mine counter measure vessel
- RTSYS Sonadive Handheld sonar for divers
- JFD Torpedo SEAL swimmer delivery vehicle
- DCNS F21 heavyweight torpedo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLGOt2Q1hV8
In this video, coverage of:
- SAAB lightweight torpedo
- Lockheed Martin S301i and S302 swimmer delivery vehicles
- Rheinmetall submarine simulator
- Northern Diver lightweight dry suit for special forces
- Safran submarine masts


_____________________________


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Post #: 2248
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/5/2017 12:17:31 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: navyrecognition

I've been away for the last month, covering several naval defense shows.
Here is our video coverage.

...


Glad to see you're back. Great coverage, as always!

(in reply to xavierv)
Post #: 2249
RE: Naval and Defense News - 6/5/2017 5:46:29 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Joined: 1/2/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Qatar Crisis in less than 24 hours. Extremely High scenario opportunity:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-04/saudi-arabia-egypt-uae-bahrain-cut-diplomatic-ties-block-all-borders-qatar


Seriously funny to see how the entire anti-Iran alliance is ripping each other apart.

Would be interesting to see what happens with the US HQ in Qatar... So much for Trump's proposed "Anti Iranian NATO of the middle east"...

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 2250
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