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RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 9:13:44 AM   
Filitch


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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: x2oop

And another Pantsir destroyed in Syria by Turkish drone. I'm really suprised how badly Pantsirs perform against those drones, especially if one considers that Turkey is probably using drones armed with MAM-L which has only 8km range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxuLQLHH8s&feature=emb_title


Yet another video provoking thoughts. Lets us understand - what really we see on this video. There is a vessel that looks like Patnsir. There are deep wheel tracks on some weak soil (tillage?). The SAM does not fire.
To thoughts. As we know Pantsir ammunition are 12 missiles and 1400 30-mm shells. Based on experience Pantsir already downed not only UAV, even 122-mm rocket projectiles (see Lybia, Syria). So, ANKA and Bayrakat TB2 are not hard target for Pantsir. From here it follows logically that SAM already shoot all their ammos and would have to down one or more UAV. Why we don't know about such events? May be video is fake?
Lets assume it's not fake. Single unarmed SAM was destroyed. Why SAM is single, why reloaded SAM is not covered by another SAMs? These are questions to operators, not to technical characteristics of SAM.

And another thoughs inspired by deep wheel tracks. As I know Pantsir has any difficulty with cross-country. Moreover high center of gravity keep Pantsir out of sharp turns.
Result could be bad:
But on the video turn is near 90 degree... May be video is fake?

< Message edited by Filitch -- 3/4/2020 9:24:20 AM >

(in reply to x2oop)
Post #: 4231
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 10:40:42 AM   
KLAB

 

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Don't believe the propaganda in either camp.
This system works in many contexts and the international sales to non typical Russian customers endorse it.
Are Brazil UAE just buying expensive stuff for the sake of it without trials and tests?
Russian sources have acknowledged issues with detecting small UAV and the radar, hence the improved Pantsir SM.
The vast majority of the videos of Pantsir being destroyed show systems that appear to have missile tubes and gun barrels pointing toward the ground, not elevated or even orientated toward a threat.
Plus there is no verified context time line or date.

Fire 13 missiles plus decoys at the right moment at a weapon system defending itself with 12 missiles and no 30mm left and the maths is simple.

Pantsir not working is more about timing tactics and logistics than the system itself.
IMHO etc

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkins

Thanks for posting that. A lot of players are following the developing situation in Syria and more specifically the Pantsir. No one seems to know how to use that weapon system and it appears to be a death trap to be anywhere near it. If the reports and vids are accurate ... who knows at this point.

Kevin


(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 4232
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 11:51:41 AM   
Sharana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Filitch
To thoughts. As we know Pantsir ammunition are 12 missiles and 1400 30-mm shells. Based on experience Pantsir already downed not only UAV, even 122-mm rocket projectiles (see Lybia, Syria). So, ANKA and Bayrakat TB2 are not hard target for Pantsir.


Says ZvezdaTV? Pantsir actually has huge problems with detecting slow flying UAVs and that's the reasons there is now Tor deployed to guard Khmeimim AB in Syria.

If we look at Pantsir's surveillance radar:

we will see that it detects targets with radial speed from 30 m/s to 1000 m/s. Meaning the minimum speed of the target has to be 108 km/h. During trials in Russia they shoot down drones flying with 200 to 300 km/h - in those cases yeah it works as advertised. But slower UAVs turned out to be a big problem. For example the Turkey's main armed drone Bayraktar TB2 has a cruise speed of just 130 km/h. Obviously it can fly slower than that which is dangerously close to the Pantsir's minimum. Besides even with 130 km/h it just needs to fly at angle >33° relative to the Pantsir in order to be under the minimal threshold and is in such scenario simply "invisible" for the operators inside the Pantsir... That's how you get close and circle above it (in it's blind zone) without being detected.

And about the guns - it's common knowledge that the gun's accuracy against anything smaller than a fighter jet is absolutely terrible. It's no wonder the Syrian Pantsir didn't try to use gun against the Israeli's Delilah missile that destroyed it after missing with 2 missiles before that. The guns can't even shoot down UAVs on shooting ranges, there are videos about it from Russia...

No need to be fanboys that are incapable of critical thinking - the Pantsir S1 is not a Wunderwaffe which can only be destroyed if it's out of ammo already after shooting down everything that was thrown at it with 100% accuracy...

< Message edited by Sharana -- 3/4/2020 12:04:53 PM >


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(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 4233
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 12:48:22 PM   
KLAB

 

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In the same vein ref tactics and logisitics of course your Patriots have to be in-situ and pointing in the right direction to avoid being circumvented by a known opposition cruise missile threat. It doesn't mean Patriot is not effective in context. Nor is it a wunderwaffen.

(in reply to Sharana)
Post #: 4234
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 1:07:08 PM   
Filitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharana
Says ZvezdaTV?

We are discussing or trading barbs?

Your calculations is right. But for boundary conditions. This is about cruise speed of UAVS. And you right that Pantsir has some disadvantages. Albeit low speed limit value I saw for new S-band radar, not for 1RS1-E which mounted on Syrian Pantsirs. Moreover radial speed from point of attacked SAM could be below than detected speed, but from point of covering SAM - doesn't. So once again - why SAM is single?


< Message edited by Filitch -- 3/4/2020 1:10:50 PM >

(in reply to Sharana)
Post #: 4235
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 1:49:00 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.armyrecognition.com/march_2020_news_defense_global_security_army_industry/new_armored_tactical_vehicle_seeked_by_ussocom_under_jagms_program.html
Back to news, JAGM Joint Armored Ground Mobility System (JAGMS), not Joint Air to Ground Missile System.
This acronym business is getting far too complicated!
K

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 4236
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 1:52:24 PM   
Sharana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KLAB

In the same vein ref tactics and logisitics of course your Patriots have to be in-situ and pointing in the right direction to avoid being circumvented by a known opposition cruise missile threat. It doesn't mean Patriot is not effective in context. Nor is it a wunderwaffen.


Far from it and that's why you won't find many people claiming it had to be out of munitions or offline if it was destroyed - other cases are unthinkable. Which is kind of what both of you were implying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FilitchSo once again - why SAM is single?

It's either Syria or Libya, how many can there be? If it's Syria there are like what 30 left, unknown amount of which are combat ready and lots of strategic objects to cover - mainly in south Syria ofc where IAF mainly strikes.


< Message edited by Sharana -- 3/4/2020 1:53:41 PM >


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Post #: 4237
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 2:45:41 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 1987
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https://defence-blog.com/news/turkish-f-16-fighter-jets-shoot-down-l-39-aircraft-over-idlib.html

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to Sharana)
Post #: 4238
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/4/2020 3:00:37 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://youtu.be/NI0REqlYhmc
My discussion point, admittedly poorly made, was only that Pantsir isn't infallible but isn't junk either.
From the You Tube clip:
It's a discussion point that the missiles being fired by the Pantsir as the Delilah(*?) closes in appear to be going off course at launch and make an interesting comparison to the straight line of missiles being fired on a range?
If the missiles don't hit what they're fired at then you run out of ways of defending yourself quickly.

Plus with an admittedly cursory search of images this was the only one with a Pantsir actually unequivocally firing as its destroyed.

Back to news on the same theme at least my point isn't as bizarre as this from RG! 😁 ROLAND really?
K
https://rg.ru/2020/03/04/novoe-video-unichtozheniia-sirijskogo-panciria-s1-mozhet-okazatsia-fejkom.html



(in reply to Sharana)
Post #: 4239
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/5/2020 3:31:42 AM   
Rebel Yell


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In an integrated AD net, Pantsir is an effective weapon.

By itself, it's just another target.

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Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.

(in reply to KLAB)
Post #: 4240
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/6/2020 9:36:45 AM   
14yellow14

 

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Marines Set To Be The First To Bring Back Land-Based Tomahawk Missiles Post-INF Treaty

The Marine Corps wants to use the ground-launched cruise missiles primarily as long-range anti-ship weapons.
https://t.co/qnblPrwx35

quote:

One possibility for the Marines could be adapting its M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers in some way to fire MST missiles. However, the two weapons that HIMARS is presently capable of firing, 227mm artillery rockets and Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) quasi-ballistic missiles, are both substantially shorter than Tomahawk.

Separately in his testimony before Congress, Commandant Berger said that the Marines planned to integrate a ground-launched version of the smaller, shorter-range Naval Strike Missile (NSM) anti-ship cruise missile onto a derivative of HIMARS called the Remotely Operated Ground Unit Expeditionary-Fires (ROGUE-F). The present concept for ROGUE-F consists of a HIMARS launcher mounted on an unmanned chassis derived from the 4x4 Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) tactical truck.

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 4241
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/6/2020 12:25:57 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 1987
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: online
Might be of interest to folks here:

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2020/03/06/greyhound-trailer-puts-tom-hanks-at-the-helm-of-a-nazi-hunting-wwii-destroyer/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB%2003.06.20&utm_term=Editorial%20-%20Early%20Bird%20Brief

June 12.

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to 14yellow14)
Post #: 4242
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/6/2020 10:05:18 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.janes.com/article/94745/turkish-uavs-played-leading-role-in-idlib-battle
Turkish UAV use and losses over Idlib Syria.
Reference to swarm attacks and heavy material losses to Syrian Govt forces.
The article doesn't elaborate on what UAV's were shot down by specifically but reference is made to both Buk and Pantsir.
K

< Message edited by KLAB -- 3/6/2020 10:12:58 PM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 4243
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/7/2020 3:22:02 PM   
serjames

 

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I'm reading the Turkish are Jamming them somehow...?

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 4244
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/10/2020 5:59:32 PM   
Hongjian

 

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A new large-diameter lightweight silicon carbide mirror for a spy satellie is being made. Rumors have it that it will be similiar to the GAOFEN-4, as in being a Geo Stationary Satellite, but instead of a resolution of 50m, it will have an incredible 2.5m. If deployed over the West Pacific, it could potentially monitor the entire ocean 24/7 .

http://m.news.cctv.com/2020/02/23/ARTIJyUTHM97vEV0sUpjGci4200223.shtml


(in reply to serjames)
Post #: 4245
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/13/2020 2:24:31 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/03/russias-borei-class-delta-iv-class-ssbns-to-deploy-burak-m-ew-buoys/
Sub launched EW Comms jamming buoys to interfere with sonar buoys.
K

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 4246
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/15/2020 8:44:16 PM   
gosnold

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

A new large-diameter lightweight silicon carbide mirror for a spy satellie is being made. Rumors have it that it will be similiar to the GAOFEN-4, as in being a Geo Stationary Satellite, but instead of a resolution of 50m, it will have an incredible 2.5m. If deployed over the West Pacific, it could potentially monitor the entire ocean 24/7 .

http://m.news.cctv.com/2020/02/23/ARTIJyUTHM97vEV0sUpjGci4200223.shtml




This mirror is not large enough for 2.5m resolution from GEO, for that you would need a 8m diameter, which would have to be deployable since it is larger than chinese rocket fairings. I would eyeball this mirror between 2m and 3, which still would give an unprecedented resolution of 10 to 7 meter from GEO.

For more on imaging from GEO, you can have a look at this

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 4247
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/16/2020 3:59:07 AM   
NorthernFox

 

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https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20200316002300320?section=search

Hyundai Heavy Industries clinches New FFX Batch III lead ship construction Contract
FFX Batch III (울산급 Batch-III) is focusing ASW,Anti-Air Detection Capability

(in reply to gosnold)
Post #: 4248
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/16/2020 4:15:14 AM   
Hongjian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gosnold


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

A new large-diameter lightweight silicon carbide mirror for a spy satellie is being made. Rumors have it that it will be similiar to the GAOFEN-4, as in being a Geo Stationary Satellite, but instead of a resolution of 50m, it will have an incredible 2.5m. If deployed over the West Pacific, it could potentially monitor the entire ocean 24/7 .

http://m.news.cctv.com/2020/02/23/ARTIJyUTHM97vEV0sUpjGci4200223.shtml




This mirror is not large enough for 2.5m resolution from GEO, for that you would need a 8m diameter, which would have to be deployable since it is larger than chinese rocket fairings. I would eyeball this mirror between 2m and 3, which still would give an unprecedented resolution of 10 to 7 meter from GEO.

For more on imaging from GEO, you can have a look at this


Interesting observation. Maybe it could also be used as part of a segmented, multi-mirror observation satellite to reach those rumored specs? But anyway, 10 meters resolution from GEO is already very usable for naval surveillance missions.

(in reply to gosnold)
Post #: 4249
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/17/2020 9:22:25 AM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/march/8167-russian-frigate-marshal-shaposhnikov-armed-with-a-190-1-gun.html
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/11/russian-udaloy-class-frigate-marshal-shaposhnikov-spotted-with-vls-upgrade
https://www.weaponews.com/news/65360722-upgraded-marshal-shaposhnikov-will-get-a-new-gun-mount-a-190-01.html

Udaloy replacing 2 x 100mm guns with a single A-190 100mm which will standardise the mount and it'll be interesting to see what the final VLS capacity is in the space created by the removal of one Ak-100.
Initial info seems to be:
8 to 16? UKSK cells.
8 Kh-35 Uran
Retained Kinzhal SA-N-9 but no indication of of this is upgraded.
1 100mm A-190
2 AK-630 30mm CIWS
etc
K

< Message edited by KLAB -- 3/17/2020 10:38:26 AM >

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 4250
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/17/2020 9:14:36 PM   
Broncepulido

 

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From the http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1155.htm site:
quote:

On Marshal Shaposhnikov in 2016-plan 2020: added 2x8 3S14 UKSK vertical launchers 3K14 (Kalibr-NK guided missile complex (3M54T anti-ship missiles, 3K22 Zirkon guided missile complex (3M22 anti-ship missiles), 3M14T ship-surface missiles), 3K55-20385 Onyx guided missile complex (P-160 anti-ship missiles (3М55)), RPK 9K (91RT anti-submarine missiles) – 16 missiles) – 3R14N fire control system - instead of 1x1 100 mm AK-100, 2x4 KT-184 launhers 3K24 Uran guided missile complex (8 3M24 anti-ship missiles) instead of 2x4 launchers URPK-6 Vodopad-NK missile complex, MR-145 Lev-218-100 fire control system replaced by MR-123-02/3 Bagira, MR-760 Fregat-MA air/surface radar replaced by MR-710 Fregat-M, added 5P-30N2 Fregat-N2 air/surface search radar, added TK-25-2 complex, added R-779-28 communication complex

(in reply to KLAB)
Post #: 4251
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/17/2020 11:43:06 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.janes.com/article/94867/sea-shrike-submarine-payload-plan-suggests-hypersonic-missile-link

Sea Shrike module for Virginia class SSN. HSGV.
K

(in reply to Broncepulido)
Post #: 4252
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/17/2020 11:49:19 PM   
KLAB

 

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Much obliged for the Russian ships info for Marshal Shaposhnikov.
I looked at that page but didn't scroll down far enough to the entry notes at the bottom! 😁 K

(in reply to Broncepulido)
Post #: 4253
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/22/2020 1:54:09 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.janes.com/article/95008/usaf-to-contract-f-t-7x-aircraft-for-fighter-pilot-training

F/T-7X Redhawk for fighter weapons training. Doesn't elaborate on any actual real weapon capability and in an era of virtual weapons for training it may not need any?
For export the FT-7 seems inevitable?

(in reply to KLAB)
Post #: 4254
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/24/2020 3:39:31 PM   
exsonic01

 

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https://news.usni.org/2020/03/23/new-marine-corps-cuts-will-slash-all-tanks-many-heavy-weapons-as-focus-shifts-to-lighter-littoral-forces

USMC wish to change its structure to be more lighter and reactive units with UAS and anti-ship batteries. To me it feels like USMC wish to conduct area-denial missions to counter area-denial from PLAN side.

quote:

The heaviest cuts, Benson said, come to aviation and heavy ground units.
“By the year 2030, the Marine Corps will see complete divestments of Law Enforcement Battalions, Tank Battalions and associated Military Occupational Specialties (MOS), and all Bridging Companies. Additionally, the Corps will reduce the number of infantry battalions from 24 to 21; artillery cannon batteries from 21 to 5; amphibious vehicle companies from 6 to 4; and reduce tilt rotor, attack, and heavy lift squadrons,” he said.


I used to joke to my friend who is USMC armor veteran (ex M1A1 crew) that USMC will never gonna have M1A2 SEP. But now that joke is about to be realized. Kinda feel sorry to him, I jinxed it XD

(in reply to KLAB)
Post #: 4255
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/27/2020 12:13:35 AM   
Blast33


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Joined: 12/31/2018
From: The Netherlands
Status: online
WASHINGTON — The German air force will reportedly buy up to 90 Eurofighters, 30 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers to replace the remainder of its Panavia Tornado fighter jet fleet, but the split procurement doesn’t offer an easy answer for Germany’s requirement to field a nuclear-capable jet, a U.K. defense think tank said.

And more in this link:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to exsonic01)
Post #: 4256
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/30/2020 12:19:01 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 1987
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: online
This does not happen all to often:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/03/27/its-official-north-macedonia-becomes-natos-30th-member/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB%2003.30.20&utm_term=Editorial%20-%20Early%20Bird%20Brief

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to Blast33)
Post #: 4257
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/31/2020 11:52:04 AM   
Blast33


Posts: 60
Joined: 12/31/2018
From: The Netherlands
Status: online
Interesting article:
Exclusive: Unmasking Northrop Grumman's XRQ-72A Great Horned Owl Spy Drone
The U.S. Intelligence Community led the development of this very quiet and high-efficiency unmanned reconnaissance aircraft.

Link






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Blast33 -- 3/31/2020 11:53:24 AM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 4258
RE: Naval and Defense News - 3/31/2020 1:07:26 PM   
KungPao


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Crowds ignore social distancing rules to watch USNS Comfort
https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/crowds-ignore-social-distancing-rules-to-watch-usns-comfort/

Guys, where is your face mask? social distancing? No gatherings!

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Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?

(in reply to Blast33)
Post #: 4259
RE: Naval and Defense News - 4/3/2020 5:12:38 PM   
KLAB

 

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https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/04/project-22350-gorshkov-class-frigates-to-join-russias-black-sea-fleet/
"The Admiral Kasatonov will have a number of robotic systems to increase combat effectiveness. They are Orlan-10 drones and unmanned boats. The drones allow the frigate to operate as a scout and an electronic warfare complex"
Doesn't specify the unmanned boats but the Orlan 10 UAV photo isnt on board the Kasatonov. K



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Post #: 4260
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