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Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship

 
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Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/2/2015 9:24:56 PM   
Primarchx


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One thing I enjoy a lot in Command is going to guns in ship-to-ship battles. There's a certain satisfaction as your shells get hits and near-misses on a threat and you manuever your ship to bear your guns and keep the return fire to a minimum. However when using naval gunfire you can quickly find yourself in a world of hurt if you don't exercise certain practices.

Here's a quick primer on how I prepare for a gun battle. As the situation develops I'll do the following, before committing to an attack.

1) Know your enemy. Review the database information on the ship(s) you are preparing to engage.

2) Know your ship - armament. What's your primary gun armament? What's it's range? How much damage does each available ammo type do? What targets are those ammo types capable against? How fast does it fire? Is it operational? See how your primary gun armament stacks up against your opponents. You want a range advantage and I wouldn't recommend a naval gun duel at a range disadvantage unless you're either forced to or you're willing to accept return fire and the potential damage that comes with it.

3) Know your ship - available ammunition. How much ammo do you have for your guns? Does your mission, level of opposition and tactical situation allow you to be free with ammo or will its' expenditure be a concern? Is the correct ammo currently loaded on the gun(s) you intend to use?

4) Know your ship - fire arcs. Understand the firing arcs of the weapon(s) you intend to deploy. Baloogan's excellent disambiguation of the Command DBs (see http://baloogancampaign.com/command-documentation/db3000/ and http://baloogancampaign.com/command-documentation/cwdb/) is ESSENTIAL for this. You don't want to barrel in against an opponent only to find that your gun won't fire to the front arc!

5) Know your ship - protection. Does your ship have any particular protective capability, such as armor? Also overall Damage Points are useful in absorbing hits. However fire and flooding can bypass armor and quickly consume, or bypass, Damage Points.

6) Know your ship - gun accuracy. Gun accuracy is given by the CEP value (expressed as a percentage). I believe a lower value = more accurate (tank guns are 4% CEP, MGs/Autocannon are 30%, artillery and most main naval guns are 80% and 16" guns are a whopping 140% for example). IRL, range and CEP size are linked - typically if CEP at range x = 100 then CEP at range x/2 = ~50.

7) Know your ship - gun fire directors. Does your primary gun have local control or is it dependent on a director? Does the director handle more than one weapons (ie, it also guides SAMs, etc)? Is it operational (check damage control)? I haven't found a way to track down what weapons have what associated fire control in the DBs yet, but you'll often see an Illumination line light up during fire if a director is used. Usually you'll first discover you need a gun director when the game tells you one isn't available! Be aware directors have arcs, too.

8) Know your ship - speed & size. The best of all worlds is to be faster and smaller than your opponent while having guns with better range & power. The speed lets you stay out of return fire and the size makes it harder for you to hit. If you don't have a speed advantage but do have a main gun range advantage, common of warships versus fast attack craft, angle your approach to give your guns the most time of fire for their firing arc as possible.

9) Know the weather and lighting. Rougher weather probably translates into worse gunfire results due to sea state effects on the firing platform. Lighting has an effect on your ability to identify and optically engage the enemy, and vice versa.

10) Know the topography. Are there areas of land or shallows you can use or must be cautious of, as you manuever?

Once you do your homework you're ready to engage. There are three main phases to a gunfire engagement ... approach, firing and disengaging.

Approach:
Review what you're up against as you close and use your maneuverability to put yourself at the best advantage you can for the firing phase. If up against multiple opponents you'll want to approach in a manner that lets you engage them sequentially if possible, allowing you to concentrate fire on a single opponent for as long as possible before switching targets.

If you have the range advantage in gunnery take steps to keep your closure speed low though not forsaking it altogether. If you lack the range advantage then put the throttles to the stops to get into firing range as quickly as possible, or disengage if you have the speed to do so. If you have the range and speed advantage, work yourself into a good firing position outside of return-fire range and maintain that separation while remaining in weapon arc and firing range for as long as possible.

Small-caliber, short-ranged weapons like 12.7mm MGs are helpful to target on the opponent for quick target engagement & transitions. Once these weapons have gone through their OODA time count on an enemy ship they keep you locked on these targets from that point on (or until they fire their allocated bursts at very close range). With this in effect you can swing your main battery to these targets without having to endure another OODA countdown. Do this before you get to main battery range so you can fire at will. Also make sure your guns are loaded with the right ammo for the target you're engaging.

Be aware that enemy ships may well go unidentified for a large chunk of the approach. This can let even minor threats get close enough to do significant damage in the wrong circumstance. Know your ROE, or set one yourself, about when you see closing unidentified ships. My standard rule of thumb is a 20+ kt closure that continues to track inbound through significant course changes is probably up to no good...

Firing:
The first thing you need to know about firing is that the enemy WILL open up with their guns at their maximum range. While max range != effective range, hits will likely occur, especially if being shot at with fast-firing weapons like MGs and Autocannon. You can flirt with moving in and out of max range against a main naval gun if you have the maneuver advantage, as hit chances are typically remote (though they certainly do happen). Fast-shooters will likely hit you even if you are in range for just a few moments due to their volume of fire, so be ready to deal with any damage they inflict.

Optimally you DO NOT want to be shot at if at all possible as fire and flooding from a minor hit can turn into a royal PITA if you're unlucky.

Next you need to determine at what range you'll open up at. Your accuracy will improve as you close on the target. Accuracy means you can do more damage in a shorter time with less ammunition.

o Where I have a range advantage I'll usually open up 1.0 to 1.5nm outside of my opponent's range if I feel I can keep them there. Closer range = more hits = more damage = greater likelihood of slowing the target, too, making this a valid tactic against faster foes if you feel you can slow them down during your advantaged period of firing.

o When I have the range advantage and am up against faster, multiple closing ships I'll usually concentrate fire on the closest unit just long enough to slow it below my max speed before moving on to the next closest. Once I've disabled the lot I can steam back and dispatch them each at my convenience.

o When I don't have the range advantage, or am evenly matched for range, I open up at max range and pray for a lucky hit as I close.

During the fight...

Watch your ammo. The main reason to close range when you're able is to conserve ammo. Long-range main battery duels consume a lot of ammo for fewer hits. Sometimes this is necessary, though, especially when facing a peer or superior ship. However lacking the rounds to finish off an opponent is another royal PITA, so measure yourself. I'll often set a self-imposed minimum magazine limit that can only be used at close range or an emergency.

Don't forget your secondary batteries. As I mentioned before, fast-shooting autocannon and MGs can inflict significant damage in the right circumstances. Know their ranges and firing arcs and put them into play if you can. In some cases you might be engaging one ship with your primary and another with your secondaries, too. If you're in secondary range odds are good you're going to get hit by something, so know that going in.

Watch for progressive damage on your ship. Taking damage can take systems off-line, including necessary fire control and gun mounts. Watch your outbound fire volume for any changes, refresh & watch the Damage Control panel, review the system log for info on hits to your ship. Fire and flood are a constant hazard. Be ready to get out of Dodge if you need to due to battle damage issues.

While this post is about gunnery, remember, many SAMs can be used as SSMs in a pinch, too. There's an ROE option to turn this on/off, so turn it on if you need them. SAMs aren't the greatest ASMs but typically have longer range than gunfire and can be used to soften up a target before you engage it with naval gunnery.

Disengaging:

Many gun duels are to the death, but that's not always the case.

Know what the goal of the engagement is before initiating it. If you're protecting a convoy and you've done enough damage to an interloper to keep him from threatening the ships under your care, then that may be all you need to do. Conserving ammo, maintaining ship health and staying in position may be more important than sending a crippled destroyer to the bottom.

Speed is life. The key to disengaging is being able to get away from a pursuer, if any are left. There are times you may fight just enough to slow an enemy and outrun them. Speed is often reduced by high-angle course changes, so be cautious about speed loss when engaging in sharp maneuvering.

Damage Control. Damage control is possible in modern builds of Command. As I recall, slower speeds are useful in putting out fires and reducing flooding, too. Your priority after a fight is to limit any progressive damage and get critical damaged systems back on line.

They know where you are. If there was any doubt about your location before, there is none after a naval gun duel. Be ready to face and/or evade enemy follow-on forces.

So that's what I've got. Any other tips out there?

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/10/2015 12:46:48 AM >
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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 5:07:08 AM   
poaw

 

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I don't have anything especially insightful to add beyond focusing your fire on targets sequentially. Doing so allows you to minimize the fire they put out. You can usually manipulate your positioning to ensure you have several ships able to engage single enemy ships. I find that most modern ships don't last very long in such situations and do negligible damage in return.

More specific: don't gunfight with an LCS. You'll end up quoting Beatty if you do.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 6:25:35 AM   
hellfish6


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I don't get into gunfights with anything less than a heavy cruiser.

Doing otherwise is just impolite.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 8:17:57 AM   
Pergite!

 

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...and of course, don't bring guns to a missile-fight.


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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 12:10:05 PM   
Dimitris


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Very nice write-up, thanks!

I assume you don't mind having some of the mechanics details annotated/corrected by the dev team?

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 2:34:13 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Very nice write-up, thanks!

I assume you don't mind having some of the mechanics details annotated/corrected by the dev team?


Not at all! Some dev insight would be most welcome!

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 2:36:02 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pergite!

...and of course, don't bring guns to a missile-fight.




Sure thing. But missiles may not be an option. And as I mentioned, going to guns can be fun!

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 4:32:26 PM   
cf_dallas


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Great picture...

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 4:59:43 PM   
FlyingBear

 

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Thank you for this nice write up!

Adding a couple twists to some of your points if I may:

- Know your enemy: Consider their OECM capabilities.

- Know your ship: Do you have optical fire control capabilities as well as radar?

- Weather and lighting conditions: Can you use optical fire control or do you have to use radar?

I found when experimenting with naval gunnery combat that some fairly archaic Soviet jammers are extremely effective against some US radar based fire control systems, such as the Mk 68 GFCS. E.g, in a Kotlin vs. C. F. Adams engagement the US vessel was completely unable to use radar directed gunfire at all until the range was down to a couple miles. I did not see that one coming and it made what I thought would be a fairly one sided encounter... well, one sided in the other direction!

Love it when there are surprises like that. Great fun!

/Flying Bear

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 5:29:14 PM   
Pergite!

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pergite!

...and of course, don't bring guns to a missile-fight.




Sure thing. But missiles may not be an option. And as I mentioned, going to guns can be fun!


I agree with you there.
It brings you back to the times of glory when the ships where of wood and the men were of iron.
Besides its hard to use any of that fancy black magic art of ECM to stop an incoming artillery round (besides screwing up the radar firing solution and deny the use of proximity fuze of course).

I also failed to mention that you have made a great summary! Thanks!

I often find it wasteful to use missiles against older or smaller type targets, it's just not cost-efficient.

< Message edited by Pergite! -- 1/4/2015 6:30:29 PM >

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 6:22:29 PM   
gbethel

 

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CEP is calculated in meters. Not sure how the devs did it but that is how it is in RL. CEP is also a nominal value, so the actual distribution can be much worse, especially at long range. I've seen weapons miss by over 3 times the CEP value at extreme ranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_error_probable

The other thing to make note of is RoF which is an integer from 1-30 assigned to weapon mounts that indicates the number of seconds between shots. Generally larger calibers fire slower. But there are some exceptions to note.




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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 7:35:05 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gbethel

CEP is calculated in meters. Not sure how the devs did it but that is how it is in RL. CEP is also a nominal value, so the actual distribution can be much worse, especially at long range. I've seen weapons miss by over 3 times the CEP value at extreme ranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_error_probable

The other thing to make note of is RoF which is an integer from 1-30 assigned to weapon mounts that indicates the number of seconds between shots. Generally larger calibers fire slower. But there are some exceptions to note.



I'd like to know how CEP is figured in the game. Typically CEP is a radius into which 50% of rounds will fall, so the other 50% fall outside that.

When CEP is given as a percentage in the DB I assume that's a percentage associated with the range of the engagement, since that's the only other variable I have access to. But it's hard to tell. Is an 80% CEP actually 80% of 10nm (20,0000yds = 60,000ft ... 0.8 x 60,000) so that 48,000ft (16,000 yds, 14,360m) is the CEP radius at that range? I've never seen that kind of miss. And if instead CEP is [100%-CEP%], that would leave a CEP radius of 12,000ft (4,000 yds, 3,657m) on an 80% CEP. Still larger than I am accustomed to seeing.

Perhaps CEP is a percentage of a different Figure of Merit at a given range?

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/4/2015 7:39:24 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlyingBear

Thank you for this nice write up!

Adding a couple twists to some of your points if I may:

- Know your enemy: Consider their OECM capabilities.

- Know your ship: Do you have optical fire control capabilities as well as radar?

- Weather and lighting conditions: Can you use optical fire control or do you have to use radar?

I found when experimenting with naval gunnery combat that some fairly archaic Soviet jammers are extremely effective against some US radar based fire control systems, such as the Mk 68 GFCS. E.g, in a Kotlin vs. C. F. Adams engagement the US vessel was completely unable to use radar directed gunfire at all until the range was down to a couple miles. I did not see that one coming and it made what I thought would be a fairly one sided encounter... well, one sided in the other direction!

Love it when there are surprises like that. Great fun!

/Flying Bear


I hadn't thought of that! It explains why I've gotten the occasional "No Director Available" when I'm trying to shoot and know full well that my ship hasn't yet been damaged. Because it's difficult to suss out what the director for a given mount actually is without a copy of Combat Fleet at hand, I chalked it up to a DB error. The message may well of been because the director lacked adequate resolution on the gunnery target.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/7/2015 3:14:00 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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quote:

I found when experimenting with naval gunnery combat that some fairly archaic Soviet jammers are extremely effective against some US radar based fire control systems, such as the Mk 68 GFCS. E.g, in a Kotlin vs. C. F. Adams engagement the US vessel was completely unable to use radar directed gunfire at all until the range was down to a couple miles. I did not see that one coming and it made what I thought would be a fairly one sided encounter... well, one sided in the other direction!


A few of the modern ship gun systems are backed up by optical gun directors, much like the vintage warships but in many cases they are combined with multiple very advanced Optical systems from multiple wavelength bands, zoom lenses, etc. to assist in laying fire in case the radar directors are rendered ineffective. In some cases quite a few different optical directors can be used to get a firing solution in case the radar is out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_gun_fire-control_system#MK_92_Fire_Control_System_.28FCS.29

quote:

The Mk 86 on Aegis-class ships controls the ship's 5"/54 caliber Mk 45 gun mounts, and can engage up to two targets at a time. It also uses a Remote Optical Sighting system which uses a TV camera with a telephoto zoom lens mounted on the mast and each of the illuminating radars.


quote:

The MK 34 Gun Weapon System is an integral part of the Aegis combat weapon system on Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers, the only operational class of destroyers in the US. It combines the MK 45 5"/54 Caliber Gun Mount, MK 46 MOD 0 Optical Sight System and the MK 160 Mod 4 Gunfire Control System / Gun Computer System. It can be used against surface ship and close hostile aircraft, and as Naval Gunfire Support (NGFS) against shore targets.[37]


Some interesting specs on some of the optical systems used in Ship fire control are here: https://books.google.com/books?id=4S3h8j_NEmkC&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329&dq=Kollmorgen+Mk+46+Mod+1+Electro-Optical+Director&source=bl&ots=hJTqOS0_bZ&sig=OJwW7j1dwhw2L_fVogR6EHRt0U4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HlytVI7hNofEgwSaj4LgAQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Kollmorgen%20Mk%2046%20Mod%201%20Electro-Optical%20Director&f=false

And here: http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/swos/gunno/INFO24.html

quote:

GUN COMPUTER SYSTEM (GCS) MK 160 MOD 4

1. The Gun Computer System (GCS) MK 160 Mod 4 accepts target data from the Aegis combat weapon system target sensors (i.e., AN/SPY-1D and AN/SPS-67 radars), and/or operator-entered data for indirect targets. Based on this target data, together with the ship's attitude and clock data, the GCS computes ballistic solutions and gun orders for the mount.


quote:

In the event of a GC and/or GCC failure (GCS casualty configuration), the GMCP and SDC/GMP can function as a stand-alone GCS using target data (supplied via voice communications) entered manually at the GMCP. It can also function as a stand-alone unit with the OS MK 46 position display providing target bearing and with other target data (e.g., grid coordinates, range) being entered manually at the GMCP.


quote:

Optical Sight (OS) MK 46 Mod 0

a. The Above Deck Sensor Unit (ADSU) is comprised of a two-axis stabilized director, daylight imaging sensor (DIS) assembly, and a thermal imaging sensor (TIS) assembly. It is located above the OS Equipment Room, which is located above the Pilot House.


quote:

Surface Direct Fire Mode. The SDF mode is used to engage surface targets being tracked by the SPY-1D, SPS-67 or Optical Sight (OS) MK 46. Targets are assigned by C&D and control of the gun engagement under normal conditions is at the Gun Console (GC). Casualty configurations allow control of the gun mount from GMP in the SDC/GMP OS mode or from either the GMCP or EP2 if the OS is not operational. The gun console operator monitors the target position and the ballistic solution processing, presses the firing key to commence fire, and evaluates the target engagement.


quote:

Antiaircraft Mode. Operations in this mode are similar to that of the SDF mode, except that the target is an air target, which limits the sensors to the SPY-1D and the OS.


quote:

Support Mode. The support mode involves tracking with the SPY-1D of the trajectory of several (three to five) rounds fired specifically for this gun calibration function. The trajectory of each round fired is compared to the trajectory originally computed for that round and values of sensor/gun misalignment, meteorological data and Initial Velocity (IV) obtained. This data may then be used to update the data used to fire the original round, calibrate the GWS, and provide a more accurate fall-of-shot.


From the above, very interesting redundancies are built into modern warships.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 1/7/2015 4:45:13 PM >

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/7/2015 3:25:54 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlmightyTallest

quote:

I found when experimenting with naval gunnery combat that some fairly archaic Soviet jammers are extremely effective against some US radar based fire control systems, such as the Mk 68 GFCS. E.g, in a Kotlin vs. C. F. Adams engagement the US vessel was completely unable to use radar directed gunfire at all until the range was down to a couple miles. I did not see that one coming and it made what I thought would be a fairly one sided encounter... well, one sided in the other direction!


A few of the modern ship gun systems are backed up by optical gun directors, much like the vintage warships but in many cases they are combined with multiple very advanced Optical systems from multiple bands, zoom lenses, etc. to assist in laying fire in case the radar directors are rendered ineffective. In some cases quite a few different optical directors can be used to get a firing solution in case the radar is out.



Excellent point. A problem I've had thus far has been identifying what the fire control needs of a given gun mount are using in-game resources. Occasionally you'll find yourself unable to use a gun because its' FC director is out and no local control is available. Although you can usually tell when a sensor system is damaged with the Damage Control panel, there's no in-game resource telling you that a certain sensor directs a given gun mount. There's also no flags to say a given gun mount has 'local control'. That's a bitter pill to swallow when you're in position to fire only to find the gun won't work!

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/7/2015 3:42:13 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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quote:

there's no in-game resource telling you that a certain sensor directs a given gun mount. There's also no flags to say a given gun mount has 'local control'. That's a bitter pill to swallow when you're in position to fire only to find the gun won't work!


lol, I hear ya Primarchx, I've encountered the same problem not knowing what was being used to direct the guns at times. When you start digging for info though, as you can see there's a lot of multiple redundancies built into the systems, so I would think most of the worlds vessels could still get some sort of firing solution to fire back in the face of heavy jamming, it's hard to jam an optical sensor, especially ones employing multiple optical technologies, where the CCD might not be able to see through fog, the 3-5 Thermal sensor will, etc.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 1/7/2015 4:42:39 PM >

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/7/2015 4:07:23 PM   
gbethel

 

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Actually there is a field in the database for autonomous mounts and mounts with local control. It isn't visible in the game. You can download a database browser for sqllite to see the table entry. It is in the datamount table.

Too much tribal knowledge.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/9/2015 5:15:02 PM   
Dimitris


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Hello,

Chris' excellent primer reminded us that so far we have not been displaying the compatibility of director sensors for mounts and weapons on the DB viewer, even though it is a critical element (and explains all those "no sensors available to guide this weapon" messages in the midst of close combat).

So we set out to rectify this. This is a preview from Build 641, showing the weaponry for the early Ticonderogas:



Hopefully this clarifies which sensor can direct/guide what mount/weapon.

Thanks!

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 1/9/2015 6:18:07 PM >


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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/9/2015 6:57:54 PM   
Primarchx


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Woot!

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 1/10/2015 8:43:50 PM   
Patmanaut


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Something what I usually do to save on ammo is the routine; fire short burst / hold fire+look / resume fire using auto engage (F1) , interrupting fire to watch using Hold Fire (A)
Don´t keep firing until the target is sunk. Most of the times the target takes some time to disappear beneath the waves.

Saludos

P.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 2/10/2015 2:15:17 PM   
Primarchx


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A quick update - I mention firing arc for the guns. This is not an issue outside of 5nm as Command assumes you are maneuvering to get weapons on target outside that range. Inside 5nm it IS an issue, though, and there's not much time to correct if you don't plan for it. So I typically fight as though firing arcs matter with guns at any range.

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 2/10/2015 3:44:55 PM   
hellfish6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hello,

Chris' excellent primer reminded us that so far we have not been displaying the compatibility of director sensors for mounts and weapons on the DB viewer, even though it is a critical element (and explains all those "no sensors available to guide this weapon" messages in the midst of close combat).

So we set out to rectify this. This is a preview from Build 641, showing the weaponry for the early Ticonderogas:


Hopefully this clarifies which sensor can direct/guide what mount/weapon.

Thanks!


That's great - hope it wasn't too big of a pain in the ass to go through the whole DB to do that. Does that info also come into play when you're adding sensors/mounts to platforms in the editor?

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RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 2/10/2015 4:17:05 PM   
wheecarm

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hello,

Chris' excellent primer reminded us that so far we have not been displaying the compatibility of director sensors for mounts and weapons on the DB viewer, even though it is a critical element (and explains all those "no sensors available to guide this weapon" messages in the midst of close combat).

So we set out to rectify this. This is a preview from Build 641, showing the weaponry for the early Ticonderogas:

Hopefully this clarifies which sensor can direct/guide what mount/weapon.

Thanks!


Fantastic!

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 23
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 2/13/2015 12:20:48 AM   
JRyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I don't get into gunfights with anything less than a heavy cruiser.

Doing otherwise is just impolite.



Now that is funny!

(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 24
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 3/20/2015 9:05:25 PM   
water4fuel

 

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Hi PrimarchX !! Thanks for your post concerning firing-arcs for gun when going into battle. Looking at the Wiki DB3000 specs, I see where most guns are effective from 0 nm to x nm down range, depending on the gun. I also see where some missiles have a beginning effective distance 4 or 5 nm downrange... is this what you are meaning by the firing arcs for guns ? If not, could you give the firing - arc gun range for a Arleigh Burke class, or a Knox class vessel please ? Thanks ever so much....

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 25
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 3/21/2015 6:22:10 AM   
Sakai007


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The Firing Arc is which direction the gun is capable of shooting from it's mount. A gun mounted on the bow of a ship can obviously shoot forward, left and right. It can't fire towards the aft end because the ship superstructure is in the way. So in total most bow weapons have an arc of 270 degrees. A CIWS mount on the side of a ship may have a fire arc only to that side. That is what he means by the firing arcs.

(in reply to water4fuel)
Post #: 26
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 3/22/2015 2:19:45 PM   
water4fuel

 

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Sakai007 - Thanks ever so much for this answer !! I really appreciated your explanation.

(in reply to Sakai007)
Post #: 27
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 4/21/2015 10:37:26 AM   
p1t1o

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx


quote:

ORIGINAL: gbethel

CEP is calculated in meters. Not sure how the devs did it but that is how it is in RL...etc.



I'd like to know how CEP is figured in the game. Typically CEP is a radius into which 50% of rounds will fall, so the other 50% fall outside that.

When CEP is given as a percentage in the DB I assume that...etc.


I'd like to know more about this too, it is pretty important - why is CEP quoted as a percentage?

It makes no sense as a percentage - what does say, 10% CEP mean?

If CEP is not being reported in units of distance, then it is not CEP being measured, but some other parameter.

Knowing what this other parameter is, and how it is calculated, would go a long way in assessing the capabilities of your units...

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 28
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 4/21/2015 6:12:14 PM   
Gunner98

 

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I’m curious on this one as well. From my experience, CEP is used for rockets, bombs and missiles where the direction of error is difficult to predict. With guns, PER (Probably Error in Range) is usually used as the error in Bearing (azimuth if you’re American) or deflection is quite small. Therefore with guns the error causes a predictable ellipse similar to a machine-gun’s beaten zone.

The US Army’s FM6-40 Chapter 3 gives a good explanation at para 3-5 to 3-9 here.

Essentially, once you establish what one PER equals: Than – 50% of all rounds will fall within 2xPER; 82% within 4xPER; and 99% within 8xPER (actually from memory its 99.93% as 7 out of every 10,000 rounds are way out...)

PER can vary considerably with range, gun quality and propellant, but range bands can usually be interpolated for easy use.

Deflection error is not a real issue as it is small and easily measured (and therefore corrected) either visually, by radar or acoustic sensors.

PER calculations get messy with Rocket assisted projectiles so a straight CEP is probably best in that case. The same goes for precision munitions.

Most of my experience is on Tara Firma but I believe naval gunnery uses the same principles.

Although gun fights in game are quite fun, I do find the fall of shot somewhat unpredictable and a bit frustrating – not a real biggie but something that could eventually be fixed. If PER were used for guns vice CEP some of this randomness might be removed.

Am not sure if this has been brought up before but it may be worth a look. If it has already been looked at and dismissed, I’ll stand down. If it’s something that may be in the future, I might be able to help with a bit of the theory – I used to know a few things about this stuff

B

(in reply to p1t1o)
Post #: 29
RE: Naval Gunnery Combat - Ship to Ship - 4/21/2015 8:55:55 PM   
magi

 

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Interesting.....

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 30
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