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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 3:57:48 PM   
Smirfy

 

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The save has been sent btw

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 6:37:48 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Another example I manage to surround two Motorized Brigades in Ancona, the two brigades teleport out another PG brigade teleports in and has a huge defence CV.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 6:45:38 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Smirfy - Ancona is a port, so it's possible that the Axis moved troops out and in via naval transport.

Cary

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 6:54:03 PM   
Smirfy

 

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In the face of complete air supremacy in summer they move two motorizied Brigades out transport and guns etc and then move a Panzer Grenadier Brigade in all by sea. That is not even the biggest handicap the staff work to achieve such a an operation and assembling craft would be exceptional even before your factor in survivabilty

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 7:02:38 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Smirfy - I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote, I'm just pointing out that the game allows it. And if you don't have naval patrols operating over the Adriatic, I think the AI will take advantage of it.
Cary

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 7:14:42 PM   
Smirfy

 

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I would suggest they Axis naval transport capacity is slightly too high then

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 7:15:57 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Turn 46 the isolated pocket is destroyed btw

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 8:23:10 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The transfer in the port hex would not work against another human, the AI however can do it. If you have the port negated by 100% damage AND control of the sea around it (i.e. your naval interdiction > enemy naval interdiction +2) then that should not work either. If it did, post the save in the tech support section so that they can look at it.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 8:24:52 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Surrounded a regiment it took about 8 units to finnally corner it thankfully it moved out in to opend ground or it would have taken about 6 turns to destroy

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 9:45:04 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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How can it take you more than 6 units? There are only 6 hexes around a single unit.

I have been checking surrounded units. They survive if they get access to supply. I had a PG regt surrounded on 14 defence. It went 14 to 4 to 3 to surrendered (I hit it with 2 divs, and a regt to block retreat). I have another PG regt in Bari, was at about 11. It is now 28, since it has access to supplies. 2 reinforced divs will cause its demise next turn... My pockets haven't been moving. The first, I assume due to lack of supplies and the second since it didnt want to leave its base. Ihave been interdicting by land and sea of course...

I really do not think there is a generic issue. So the only possibility is something happens on specific machines, or your surrounded units are not as isolated as you think. Have you looked to see if the hex is actually isolated?

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Post #: 130
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 9:54:30 PM   
Smirfy

 

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It takes 6 units because in bad terrain because you dont move to quick. Ill think you will find the screen shots a posted and the save I emailed as requested dont lie. I have seen this behavour several times in each game. The units were isolated they did not decrease in strength appreciably and moved. If they stop in anything other than clear forget about attacking until you get a set piece battle going as I have demonstrated. So now we have Regiments that can cause riots behind the lines. Its simple the isolation rules arnt working.

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Post #: 131
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 10:20:01 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Turn 52 and the AI has just pulled off the largest and most blatant cheat I have seen in the history of computer gaming. Multiple Units teleport out of line over ten at least deliver an attack then teleport back into line, If they just teleported to attack you would let it slide but it would seriously take 5-6 player turns to pull off what the AI did. Yeah I know play humans. I really love the strategy in this game air is on a real winner once problem gets ironed out but honestly the biggest killer is the AI it kills all immersion.

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Post #: 132
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/1/2015 10:46:02 PM   
Joel Billings


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It would be great to have a save of AI units doing too much in the attack. They shouldn't cheat move into an attack, although I can see there might be some stretching in the after attack shuffle to rebuild the line.

I have your save for the units isolated on turn 43 and have sent it to Gary to look into altering the routine that is supposed to weaken them when they get very low on supplies. We do not expect isolated units without depots or air resupply to be able to hold out as long as they seem to be able to now. A big attack will kill them once they get weak, but at some point it shouldn't require a big attack to get them to surrender.

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Post #: 133
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 11:53:19 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Further to my 2 pockets. Bari obviously started running out of supply. 2 PG regts (missed one last post), CV = 26 after 3 turns. 2 reinforced Div got 9:1 on a deliberate attack, and the Germans rout.

The other pocket was hit by 2 divs plus 3 regts, and was at very low CV. Again, total surrender (actually surrender... isolated).

Total losses for turn, GE = 12003 men, 159 Guns, 27 AFV. Me (WA) = 1038 men, 17 Guns, 2 AFV

Really not seeing any funniness here. AI made a bit of a mistake getting 3+ PG divisions pocketed in the 'foot' of Italy. Mind you, I had 5th Army ashore at Salerno, and 8th Army split, 1 Corps landed on the toe, and the others came ashore at Taranto. That seemed to confuse it, it didn't pull back until too late (5th Army had 2 Armd Divs, and they broke out onto the plain of Foggia, and cut the ankle!)

Anyone else having jumping AI, roaming pockets etc?

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 1/2/2015 12:54:50 PM >


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Post #: 134
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 1:29:09 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Anyone else having jumping AI, roaming pockets etc?


No, to be honest.

Like you I've locked the AI up in a port, done enough sea interdiction to limit resupply and waited a few turns. Their CV comes down turn after turn, till I'm ready to do the final step. Usual result is a surrender, sometimes a rout (seems to be dependent on morale and the level of naval interdiction). Like in WiTE, a tough German unit has more capacity to absorb a hammering than a unit of a nationality who would rather the war went elsewhere.

The one hex guarenteed move does cause some problems closing a pocket and most veterans of WiTE (esp from the German side) have learnt the hard way that a retreat can sometimes lead to chaos in your HQ chain as they retreat in the 'wrong' direction. So in the Italian mountains its very hard to directly cut off retreating units but if you get a good breakthrough you can seriously dislocate a defensive line.

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Post #: 135
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 1:50:34 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Like I keep saying it is possible to contain and destroy units in clear terrain as isolating them ain't much of a problem especially with the plethora of armoured brigades. I have no complaint about City defence apart from 1/ units can rout from ports (no matter what level of naval interdiction) 2/ Support units seem to be able to teleport in and out 3/ Support units may be supporting from outside the pocket. When you get to the mountains and your units cannot move very far the story changes. I ran an isolation test on a City with naval interdiction in play and it seems to be working reasonably enough bar the idiotic routing. The bottom line is however as a paying customer I should be playing rather than "testing" .

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/2/2015 2:52:01 PM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 3:50:08 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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But so far, we appear to be testing your experience of the game. No one has reported problems like yours.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 4:24:09 PM   
Wild


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So far I've had no problems either. I'm not really sure what all the complaining is about. They seem to have really nailed it with this game. I'm seeing very few issues, and i'm one who complained vocally when WITE was first released. Good job 2by3.


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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 4:52:40 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

But so far, we appear to be testing your experience of the game. No one has reported problems like yours.


Just FYI, my frustrations aren't so different then Smirfy's. Though, in my case, I checked the MP's listed in the manual and I think a motorized unit with high enough speed ( I assume the HG Panzer Div qualifies) could theoretically have pulled off that move under player control as well... so not blatant cheating.

Just having a tough time accepting that the HG Panzer Division can pull out of enemy ZOC on the West coast of Italy drive 5 hex's over rough terrain and 2 in the clear in the mud over Italian roads and pull into a position in enemy ZOC on the opposite side of the line on the East coast of Italy and enjoy full defensive benefit of the Fortifications it just arrived at... and suffer no combat readiness loss despite every plane in the 15th Air Force set to interdict it (and those fortifications impervious to every plane in the Tactical Air Force trying to pound them with Ground Support). It's just counter-intuitive from a game-play perspective that such a thing SHOULD work....but according to the MP's listed in the manual... it is probably possible that a player could do it as well.

Not trying to hi-jack the thread.... I just wanted to point out that Smirfy is not entirely alone in his frustrations.... as you seem to be implying.


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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 5:00:36 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Thanks Mel, I agree with what your saying on your thread. Like I said I would have let the AI jump slide even though it stretched credibility but the jump back into line afterwards was just too much.

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Post #: 140
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 5:01:35 PM   
Wild


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Grumpy Mel - The turns are 1 week in length. I really don't see a problem with it.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 5:17:31 PM   
MisterBoats

 

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I know this may be an apples and oranges comparison, but in playing HPS's "Normandy '44," I found that Allied interdiction will tear up German divisions during the day, especially if they use the highways or rail lines. However, at night I've been able to move all kinds of units with very few losses. I think WITW gets it right, considering that every turn is comprised of 7 day and night phases. By using the proper air doctrines in "Breakout," I was able to take Avranches pretty quickly in my "Cobra" offensive, and move the Germans back to the Seine line by mid-August. The AI made very good choices in that regard, and stalled my advance better than its historical counterpart.

< Message edited by MisterBoats -- 1/2/2015 6:18:47 PM >

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 5:26:45 PM   
Baelfiin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterBoats

I know this may be an apples and oranges comparison, but in playing HPS's "Normandy '44," I found that Allied interdiction will tear up German divisions during the day, especially if they use the highways or rail lines. However, at night I've been able to move all kinds of units with very few losses. I think WITW gets it right, considering that every turn is comprised of 7 day and night phases. By using the proper air doctrines in "Breakout," I was able to take Avranches pretty quickly in my "Cobra" offensive, and move the Germans back to the Seine line by mid-August. The AI made very good choices in that regard, and stalled my advance better than its historical counterpart.

Had a lot of fun playing hps panzercampaigns over the years, I would have to say apples to more like cotton or some undiscovered extraterrestrial fruit 8)

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 5:54:39 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Grumpy Mel - The turns are 1 week in length. I really don't see a problem with it.


I get that it is a 1 week scale but there are alot of compromises that are being made to fit the game into that scale and a U-Go/I-Go system. There are things that have to work logicaly and intuitively from a game-play perspective that may not fit well with that scale... but they still have to work. If we want to talk realism.....

- Does a commander really have to wait for his opponent to take his "turn" for the week so that opponent can shift his forces from 1 end of the line to another and get them fully situated in thier new defenses before he can take his "turn" to attack.... you mean a commander can't possibly order an attack while such forces are in transit or haven't fully gotten situated in thier new defenses yet?

- Does a commander really have to order a full scale infantry attack if all he wants to do is order his aircraft and artillery to bombard his opponents fortifications to see if he can degrade them? Don't give me the Monte Cassino example... we're talking clear hex's (a farmers field here). Places like Monte Cassino or heavly urbanized terrain would be difficult to soften up (and assault) simply by virtue of the nature of the terrain not because some guy put up some sand-bags and barbed wire.... it's the buildings (and the rubble created by thier destruction) that makes them so difficult to reduce.

- Does a commander really have to let his opponents forces have a chance to go out and rebuild thier fortifications without firing upon them if they are in constant contact with them?

- Does a commander have to order air interdiction in square boxes that are exactly as high as they are wide... if what he really wants to interdict doesn't fit that shape?

- Can a commander not order the destruction of strategic bridges over rivers to particularly impede the movement of motorized and heavy armored units if what he needs is to alow them down for a day or two (not a week) to prevent reinforcement of a weakened portion of the line.... can he not order attacks concentrated on those bridges instead of some field 20 miles away because it happens to fit into a box?

There are alot of things that don't really fit well into the 1 week time scale or the U-Go/I-Go model but are important to be able to achieve from a gameplay perspective.

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RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 6:28:47 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Same as myself Mel its immersion issues. People are talking about a Panzer Division traveling 100 miles in a week no problem. The divisions never arrived in Normandy in any coherent form and had to scrouge fuel when they arrived and left a trail of breakdowns behind them.

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Post #: 145
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 6:49:00 PM   
Wild


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I can understand some things may not be as all players would wish. I myself much prefer the WEGO system. But this is the game we got. It's a big step up from WITE. And it's really exciting the direction they are going in this series. Maybe even getting a complete War in Europe eventually.
So like i said it's the game we got and it's only been out a month for pete's sake. I'm sure it will still be improved on alot. I for one intend to give 2by3 a little slack. Plus i think that many of these so called "problems" will take care of themselves when player's get more experience with the system. It's very complex after all.

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Post #: 146
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 7:03:05 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

I can understand some things may not be as all players would wish. I myself much prefer the WEGO system. But this is the game we got. It's a big step up from WITE. And it's really exciting the direction they are going in this series. Maybe even getting a complete War in Europe eventually.
So like i said it's the game we got and it's only been out a month for pete's sake. I'm sure it will still be improved on alot. I for one intend to give 2by3 a little slack. Plus i think that many of these so called "problems" will take care of themselves when player's get more experience with the system. It's very complex after all.


agree completely, compared to WiTE on release this is brilliant. There are no game stopping issues - either the working of the sub-systems or balance, which is vastly to the credit of those who designed and tested the game. There are judgement issues - do units cut off survive too long, and there will be an emerging issue of 'perfect' strategies. But the base game is highly playable.

now I agree its all too easy to tie yourself in knots, having played a fair bit of WiTE, I have some feel for the land side - but even here the Anglo-Allied forces require a very different mindset and for the axis you have to solve the constant problem of the allied air dominance. Equally I'll freely admit to be learning/experimenting with the new airwar system, both the tactical model and the strategic air war. But its important not to confuse making mistakes with the system being broken.

I like game systems that are based on giving orders and those being executed - one of the many reasons why I like AGEOD games. I can also understand why an operational WW2 game wants to keep igo/ugo, and that does create some problems, but in truth so does WeGo as an approach.

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Post #: 147
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 8:09:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

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He is a good example of the wandering AI after being surrounded for 3 turns it decides bugger this Im off to counter attack the Allies.




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Post #: 148
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 8:10:49 PM   
Smirfy

 

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You know this thing that nobody else can reproduce :D

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Post #: 149
RE: Planes, Trains and Automobiles - 1/2/2015 8:29:46 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Will they wander, whats the betting?




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< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/2/2015 9:31:55 PM >

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