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The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/15/2014 11:40:38 AM   
warspite1


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Interesting debate. I never realised they had recovered this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-30471063

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/15/2014 12:45:43 PM   
wings7


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Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/15/2014 1:20:14 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick


It would seem like a fitting place for it. Honor the brave sailors of the British task force that faced off against Graf Spee and won.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/16/2014 1:58:28 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick


I'm sure their bid to the private salvage crew will be considered.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/16/2014 5:40:20 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick


I'm sure their bid to the private salvage crew will be considered.
warspite1

I would be surprised if they have that kind of money available!

If the £10m figure is anywhere near correct, I wonder who on earth could both afford it and want it?!

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/16/2014 5:18:05 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick


I'm sure their bid to the private salvage crew will be considered.
warspite1

I would be surprised if they have that kind of money available!

If the £10m figure is anywhere near correct, I wonder who on earth could both afford it and want it?!


Maybe the same person who purchased Hitler's painting for big $$$ a while back. Crazy people with lots of money exist.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 12/16/2014 6:18:52 PM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/16/2014 5:50:00 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Great story and info! The eagle would fit in nicely at the Imperial War Museum in London!

Patrick


I'm sure their bid to the private salvage crew will be considered.
warspite1

I would be surprised if they have that kind of money available!

If the £10m figure is anywhere near correct, I wonder who on earth could both afford it and want it?!


Maybe the same person who purchased Hitler's painting for big $$$ a while back. Crazy people with lots of money exist.
warspite1

Agreed - although there is a bit of a difference between €130,000 and £10m!!


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/18/2014 1:59:20 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


I would be surprised if they have that kind of money available!



Well then I would be surprised if their bid is the successful (or highest) one.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/18/2014 2:10:39 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I wonder who on earth could both afford it and want it?!


It's not that expensive in terms of historical artifacts. Granted, it's a niche market, but considering what some things are going for these days at Sotheby's, it's not too great a stretch to see someone (anonymously, likely) paying out for this.

From an aesthetic art-only point of view, I find some of the Third Reich's Art Deco sculptures to be quite pleasing. Yeah, it's got a big 'ole swastika on it, but I can appreciate the art for the art's sake.

Hey, if Alexander Nevsky can be appreciated for art sake despite the obvious Soviet propaganda origins, I'm open to some of the more discerning works of the Nazi artists too. My next book-"Art of the Third Reich". Just went on my Amazon list.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 12/18/2014 3:19:13 AM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/18/2014 3:06:02 AM   
t001001001

 

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The guys who provided the expertise and gear to recover the artifact are expecting half of what that piece of junk sells for at auction. Estimated about 15 millions - a handsome sum. I'm sure in their contract it can't just be given away.


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 4:13:41 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Interesting debate. I never realised they had recovered this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-30471063

Thank you for sharing.


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 9:25:00 AM   
Orm


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I've been pondering on the question on what to do with it for a while now. I've reached the conclusion that it should be destroyed unless that the German people, or government, can be persuaded that it should be in a British war museum. If Great Britain want it, of course. And if Germany is ok with it then a symbolic sum should be paid for it that cover the cost of recovery only.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 9:35:26 AM   
warspite1


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Presumably the raising of the eagle cost the salvage firm a lot of cash. You would have thought they would have checked out who has the rights to sell and also the potential price before going to all the trouble of raising it??

As to what to do with it, I understand that the presence of the swastika makes it a bit of a difficult one, although given the right setting I don't see why it would be a major issue.

For example, if it was displayed in a museum together with the story of the Battle of the River Plate and the pictorial evidence of how it ended, I don't think it would exactly be ideal as a shrine for moronic neo-Nazis...

Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.

Facism - Don't do it!




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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 9:49:50 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Presumably the raising of the eagle cost the salvage firm a lot of cash. You would have thought they would have checked out who has the rights to sell and also the potential price before going to all the trouble of raising it??

As to what to do with it, I understand that the presence of the swastika makes it a bit of a difficult one, although given the right setting I don't see why it would be a major issue.

For example, if it was displayed in a museum together with the story of the Battle of the River Plate and the pictorial evidence of how it ended, I don't think it would exactly be ideal as a shrine for moronic neo-Nazis...

Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.

Facism - Don't do it!




Well said.

I think that the law on this is complicated with international complications as well.

I think that the salvage company should get their money back and for their time spend but not much more than that. I would not like to see these things done for huge profit. And I agree that it fits in a museum exhibition about the Battle of the River Plate. But I also think that this should not be done if it upsets the German population and break their laws. Therefore I believe that German co-operation in this matter is welcome. I would hope that they could be persuaded but if not I see no other resolution that to destroy it.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 10:40:10 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.


Noo....

This is what happens when a damaged pocket battleship gets scuttled. Those 6-inch popguns can't wreak this sort of havoc by themselves.

ETA: The Bismarck was scuttled.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 12/20/2014 11:40:31 PM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 10:43:18 PM   
Chickenboy


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In general, I think profitable salvage work should be encouraged. It's the only impetus for recovering these lost artifacts and incredible riches from the deep. IMO, the problem lies with greedy governments deciding that there should be no recompense for the salvage operators and claiming full sovereignty over the recent discovery. If you knew it was there all along, then why didn't you salvage it yourself?

When governments share nicely (and there have been several examples of this) in the spoils, then everyone can win.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/20/2014 11:55:37 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.


Noo....

This is what happens when a damaged pocket battleship gets scuttled. Those 6-inch popguns can't wreak this sort of havoc by themselves.

ETA: The Bismarck was scuttled.
warspite1

Hee hee - I was waiting for someone to comment

[Turns to face audience] For those, like CB, who don't know about war and grown up stuff an' s^&*, let me confirm:

- The Royal Navy force was out-ranged and out-gunned.
- However, Commodore Henry Harwood knew all he had to do was inflict enough damage on the Graf Spee to ensure that - one way or the other - she wasn't getting home.
- Sadly, because the German ship had a better reach, he knew any action was going to be painful for his force of British and Kiwis.
- But, in the finest traditions of the RN, he put himself and his ships in harms way to get the desired outcome.
- Having done that, there was no way home for Graf Spee.
- Langsdorff chose to scuttle his ship.
- Job Done.
[Sits back and takes a sip of the cup of tea that has just been served by his faithful manservant Geeves]

Re the Bismarck. [Assumes serious tone once more]
- Scuttled schmuttled. I actually had an online conversation with someone once that went something like this
- Because Bismarck scuttled herself, all the glory and honour of the battle went to the Germans and none to the British.
- After I managed to pick myself up from laughing so hard I almost cracked a rib, I politely pointed out that he was of course correct, after all:
- After Bismarck had scuttled herself, Hitler declared a national holiday and a two-day period of celebration to honour the fact that the
Kriegsmarine had won such a great and glorious victory. Bismarck of course was sunk, Operation Rheinubung (to get at the North Atlantic convoys) was
a total failure, 2,000 German sailors were dead and the battleship was lost to the German OOB forever..... but hey, no matter. The important thing was that the Bismarck's crew had scuttled her. [Visions of Hitler dancing through the corridors of the Reichkanzelei singing "Happy Days are here again la la la la la"]
- The fact that prior to this act, the RN had turned her into a totally useless burning hulk, totally beyond repair, seems to have been completely lost on the OP.... hey ho...

- Interesting that on that basis, the Battle of Midway was actually a glorious Japanese victory


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/21/2014 1:41:32 AM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/21/2014 1:35:21 AM   
Greyshaft


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I view scuttling a warship as equivalent to resigning a wargame. You are acknowledging that the other side has the power/ability to win the battle regardless of your own skill and/or luck, and you just want to save time or lives. In some case (Honors of War granted during a seige) there is the caveat that the defenders would have made the attackers pay dearly, so you trade control of the battlefield in exchange for retreating with your army, but the final outcome is never in doubt.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/21/2014 2:39:05 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
the Battle of Midway was actually a glorious Japanese victory


Hai! Chickenboy-san concur. Hai!

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/21/2014 5:59:34 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
the Battle of Midway was actually a glorious Japanese victory


Hai! Chickenboy-san concur. Hai!
warspite1

JFB!

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/21/2014 10:56:52 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I view scuttling a warship as equivalent to resigning a wargame. You are acknowledging that the other side has the power/ability to win the battle regardless of your own skill and/or luck, and you just want to save time or lives. In some case (Honors of War granted during a seige) there is the caveat that the defenders would have made the attackers pay dearly, so you trade control of the battlefield in exchange for retreating with your army, but the final outcome is never in doubt.

Hear, hear.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/23/2014 1:57:38 AM   
t001001001

 

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I don't understand why the guys who recovered the thing should only be paid enough to hardly cover their cost. They wouldn't have even bothered w/ it. They expect half at auction. If that ain't cool go get it urself then and give it away. Gesh.

< Message edited by t001001001 -- 12/23/2014 2:59:04 AM >

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/23/2014 3:29:50 AM   
t001001001

 

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I have no respect for that piece of crap and agree it'd be shameful for it to fall into some nazi enthusiast's hands unless the dope is willing to pay 25 millions for it.

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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/23/2014 7:19:03 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

I don't understand why the guys who recovered the thing should only be paid enough to hardly cover their cost. They wouldn't have even bothered w/ it. They expect half at auction. If that ain't cool go get it urself then and give it away. Gesh.

I am not sure that the guys who recovered it has the legal right to it.

As I understand it the British government has the legal rights to the wreck. So why should the British pay for something they already own? For something that might actually be considered plunder from the wreck? I suppose that Uruguay might have some claim as well but I see no reason that the ones recovering it should be considered the owners.


Cut from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Admiral_Graf_Spee#Scuttling
quote:


The salvage rights were purchased from the German Government by the British, for £14,000, using a Montevideo engineering company as a front.



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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/23/2014 11:29:15 PM   
rodney727


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Oh yes the great British navy. I'm thankful to this day that they defeated (single handed mind you) the worlds most irrelevant surface fleet who was less than 1/10th in size of just their very own Atlantic fleet. They used the same tactics to sweep away the Japanese in the pacific also.....errr wait

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.


Noo....

This is what happens when a damaged pocket battleship gets scuttled. Those 6-inch popguns can't wreak this sort of havoc by themselves.

ETA: The Bismarck was scuttled.
warspite1

Hee hee - I was waiting for someone to comment

[Turns to face audience] For those, like CB, who don't know about war and grown up stuff an' s^&*, let me confirm:

- The Royal Navy force was out-ranged and out-gunned.
- However, Commodore Henry Harwood knew all he had to do was inflict enough damage on the Graf Spee to ensure that - one way or the other - she wasn't getting home.
- Sadly, because the German ship had a better reach, he knew any action was going to be painful for his force of British and Kiwis.
- But, in the finest traditions of the RN, he put himself and his ships in harms way to get the desired outcome.
- Having done that, there was no way home for Graf Spee.
- Langsdorff chose to scuttle his ship.
- Job Done.
[Sits back and takes a sip of the cup of tea that has just been served by his faithful manservant Geeves]

Re the Bismarck. [Assumes serious tone once more]
- Scuttled schmuttled. I actually had an online conversation with someone once that went something like this
- Because Bismarck scuttled herself, all the glory and honour of the battle went to the Germans and none to the British.
- After I managed to pick myself up from laughing so hard I almost cracked a rib, I politely pointed out that he was of course correct, after all:
- After Bismarck had scuttled herself, Hitler declared a national holiday and a two-day period of celebration to honour the fact that the
Kriegsmarine had won such a great and glorious victory. Bismarck of course was sunk, Operation Rheinubung (to get at the North Atlantic convoys) was
a total failure, 2,000 German sailors were dead and the battleship was lost to the German OOB forever..... but hey, no matter. The important thing was that the Bismarck's crew had scuttled her. [Visions of Hitler dancing through the corridors of the Reichkanzelei singing "Happy Days are here again la la la la la"]
- The fact that prior to this act, the RN had turned her into a totally useless burning hulk, totally beyond repair, seems to have been completely lost on the OP.... hey ho...

- Interesting that on that basis, the Battle of Midway was actually a glorious Japanese victory




< Message edited by rogo727 -- 12/24/2014 12:59:33 AM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/24/2014 12:04:48 AM   
t001001001

 

Posts: 312
Joined: 4/30/2009
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.

< Message edited by t001001001 -- 12/24/2014 1:11:46 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/24/2014 3:00:38 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40511
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Oh yes the great British navy. I'm thankful to this day that they defeated (single handed mind you) the worlds most irrelevant surface fleet who was less than 1/10th in size of just their very own Atlantic fleet. They used the same tactics to sweep away the Japanese in the pacific also.....errr wait

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Hey kids - this is what happens when an 11-inch armed pocket battleship takes on one 8-inch and two 6-inch armed cruisers of the Royal Navy.


Noo....

This is what happens when a damaged pocket battleship gets scuttled. Those 6-inch popguns can't wreak this sort of havoc by themselves.

ETA: The Bismarck was scuttled.
warspite1

Hee hee - I was waiting for someone to comment

[Turns to face audience] For those, like CB, who don't know about war and grown up stuff an' s^&*, let me confirm:

- The Royal Navy force was out-ranged and out-gunned.
- However, Commodore Henry Harwood knew all he had to do was inflict enough damage on the Graf Spee to ensure that - one way or the other - she wasn't getting home.
- Sadly, because the German ship had a better reach, he knew any action was going to be painful for his force of British and Kiwis.
- But, in the finest traditions of the RN, he put himself and his ships in harms way to get the desired outcome.
- Having done that, there was no way home for Graf Spee.
- Langsdorff chose to scuttle his ship.
- Job Done.
[Sits back and takes a sip of the cup of tea that has just been served by his faithful manservant Geeves]

Re the Bismarck. [Assumes serious tone once more]
- Scuttled schmuttled. I actually had an online conversation with someone once that went something like this
- Because Bismarck scuttled herself, all the glory and honour of the battle went to the Germans and none to the British.
- After I managed to pick myself up from laughing so hard I almost cracked a rib, I politely pointed out that he was of course correct, after all:
- After Bismarck had scuttled herself, Hitler declared a national holiday and a two-day period of celebration to honour the fact that the
Kriegsmarine had won such a great and glorious victory. Bismarck of course was sunk, Operation Rheinubung (to get at the North Atlantic convoys) was
a total failure, 2,000 German sailors were dead and the battleship was lost to the German OOB forever..... but hey, no matter. The important thing was that the Bismarck's crew had scuttled her. [Visions of Hitler dancing through the corridors of the Reichkanzelei singing "Happy Days are here again la la la la la"]
- The fact that prior to this act, the RN had turned her into a totally useless burning hulk, totally beyond repair, seems to have been completely lost on the OP.... hey ho...

- Interesting that on that basis, the Battle of Midway was actually a glorious Japanese victory



warspite1

For the love of ..............

So you have been away from the forum for a while, only to return with the same old brand of anti-British rubbish as ever. No idea what that little childish outburst was all about... No wait, of course I do.

Listen we all know about your hang up - you have admitted it on more than one occasion - "you can never forgive the country that burned your capital"

That was over 200 years ago for goodness sake. Newsflash. Since that time we have become Allies, our peoples have fought and died together fighting for freedom and democracy. What happened in 1812 is over, understand?

The World's most irrelevant surface fleet? On what basis do you say that? Sure the surface vessels of the Kriegsmarine did little or nothing to effect the outcome of the war, but irrelevant? Maybe you would think differently if, instead of opining from your comfy 21st century home, you were aboard, and likely died, on HMS Hood (vs Bismarck) or the Rawalpindi (vs the Ugly Sisters) or the Jervis Bay (vs Admiral Hipper) etc etc facing those irrelevant ships. To take the last case alone, I'm sure had the captain of HMS Jervis Bay (Captain Fegen V.C) not sacrificed himself and his ship there would have been a whole lot more merchant sailors from convoy HX-84 that would have died at the hands of that irrelevant German cruiser.

Oh and by the way, what's with the Atlantic Fleet crap? Get your facts right - we didn't have an Atlantic Fleet

The thread is entitled Graf Spee's eagle. Who said or claimed anything to suggest other than the USN won the Pacific War at sea? If my comment re Midway was the reason for your ridiculous outburst perhaps you may care to read the post again, understand what was actually written and meant by the comment, and then eat a large slab of humble pie.

If your misguided idea on what I said re Midway wasn't the reason for your outburst (and I cannot see any other reference to the Pacific War) then you were simply trolling by claiming faux indignation at something that no one has claimed.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/24/2014 8:23:17 AM >


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RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/24/2014 3:03:33 AM   
Gilmer


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I love the British, if for nothing else, Sean Connery. I love mimicking his voice.

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"There are no modern Nazis. The real Nazis in Hell laugh at the notion." - Gilmer, descendant of Poles.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/24/2014 3:04:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40511
Joined: 2/2/2008
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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/24/2014 8:21:11 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 29
RE: The Graf Spee's eagle. - 12/24/2014 3:05:51 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40511
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

I love the British, if for nothing else, Sean Connery. I love mimicking his voice.
Warspite1

Glad to know we have our uses


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Gilmer)
Post #: 30
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