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On the fence here, what to do?

 
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On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 1:49:20 PM   
davidepessach

 

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Now this is quite a dilemma.
I love eastern front way better than the western. I'm curious about the war in the pacific (but I know too little at the moment).
I would love to get WITW but it's pricey as hell, WITE could be an option but it's older (I guess there are many improvements in WITW)...in turn WITP is praised as the very best but, as said, I miss a deep knowledge on that front...

What to do?

:-)
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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 2:01:26 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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That is indeed a tough choice.

I would ask for a bit more info first - why are you more interested in the Eastern than Western front? If I understood that, I may be able to better gauge which one would suit you.

WITE and WITW are both easier to learn and play than WITP. WITW is probably the easier of the two. Both games can be quite dynamic and interesting and teach a lot about the history involved.

WITP AE is much more complex, but also different in that it's a WEGO game (simultaneous resolution). You will get a grad-level course on the War in the Pacific out of playing it, it's extremely interesting and replayable once you get over the learning curve.

If you haven't played any monster wargames like these before, I'd advise starting with WITW as it has the easiest learning curve, then WITE and then WITP AE.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 2:48:18 PM   
davidepessach

 

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I'm new to these kind of games, indeed. I don't mind complexity. Right now I'm playing games like Flashpoint, Graviteam Tactics and Combat Mission; stil the operational level is something I don't play often. I'm really enjoying Flashpoint but I feel I can tackle on much more...hence the interest in these games (I also love learning new game systems and reading manuals).

Also, to tell you the truth, I got scared reading the forum about the bugs WITE had on release; thinking about hours of gaming trashed by a crash is a big no. That would point me to WITE as it is older, well patched, hence "safer". On the other side, WITW surely has new features, easiest learning curve...

Though decision; there's a slot in my christmas present list, right aside Combat Commander expansions... :-)

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 2:51:03 PM   
Grotius


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It's a tough call. Even though WITE is older and patched, I personally think WITW is a smoother gameplay experience. Smaller unit density, better air system, fascinating logistics system, cool modeling of weather. But if you're more interested in the Eastern front, WITE is certainly an engrossing portrayal of that conflict. I just think it's a slightly less "modern" system than WITW.

WITP/AE is an awesome game, but if I were you, I'd save that for later. It's insanely detailed (which is why I love it). Try WITW or WITE first.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 3:09:38 PM   
wodin


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@Patgarret..Honestly WITPAE is in a totally different league to the games you've played so far. To be honest I can only recommend it to those who are obsessed with the Pacific as they will get the most out of it.

I recommend WITW and for your East front fix wait for Decisive Campaigns 3 as that is looking unqiue and fascinating with load sof immersion which can be difficult to get from a high scale wargame.


Have a read of the developer updates..good eh?

http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?cat=20



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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 3:14:54 PM   
cmunson


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quote:

Also, to tell you the truth, I got scared reading the forum about the bugs WITE had on release; thinking about hours of gaming trashed by a crash is a big no.


I think a lot of people when commenting on WitE about "bugs" are really referring to play balance or realism gripes. To me a game of that complexity that has crashed maybe 2x in hundreds of hours of gaming over many years is not "buggy". Some people thought blizzard rules too tough or Russian attacks to powerful, well maybe. You can goose Axis logistics and morale through the game interface if you feel that way or open the game editor.

I have enjoyed every WitE game I've every played, first to last.

I would urge you buy all the Grigsby games but WitW is a great start. As Grotius mentions, the air, logistics and weather system are second to none in war gaming.

Enjoy.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 3:23:06 PM   
SuluSea


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I have all three games. I don't know enough about WITW obviously to have an opinion on it. WITP AE is my favorite game but I think you'd get better value for your money with WITE as it has a very good AI that can also be customized to your skill level. Moraveal has done a fantastic job with the latest updates.

IMO , WITP AE isn't for everyone because of the time spent with logistics.



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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 3:56:41 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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Greeting from a fellow Combat Mission gamer. War in the Pacific AE is awesome, but its really about capturing/holding key atoll/islands and land masses where you can build airbases and enlarge ports. Its really focused on air power, sea power and logistics. The land combat aspect of the game is not really as fleshed out as War in the East or West.

Sounds like you love the Eastern Front the most and that was really a land combat theater. The only combat zone in War in the Pacific that comes close to the size and scope of the Eastern Front is the CBI and that really is not the main event.

I have War in the East too, but haven't really gotten into it, but stating to take another look, now that I have war in the west.

You'll spend a lot of time moving supplies in WitP to where it needs to be. That is your number 1 concern.

Also are you planning on playing against the AI or another person, because War in the Pacific against another person is a completely different experience. I haven't played War in the East or West against another person, but being a Combat Mission person too I can tell you playing against the AI and against another person is a completely different experience and what you lean against the AI will get you wiped out quickly against another person.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 7:24:58 PM   
Jim D Burns


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If the purchase choice you are making is due to limited finance and you don’t think you’ll ever get the other games, then I recommend WitW. Eventually the entire series will all be merged together and that means the new system for air power will be used. The old WitE system will no longer apply so buying an out-dated system won’t help you in the long run if another limited purchase choice in the future would lead you to the huge mega game that will someday be made for all of Europe.

But if finances are not the issue and you simply want to enjoy the game, then go with your comfort zone and get WitE first. If you enjoy it then you can get WitW at a later date.

WitP AE is a great game and probably is my all time favorite game. But learning how to play it well has been likened to studying for a thesis and is not far off the mark. If you have the massive amount of time to invest it can become your all time favorite game too someday. But if you can’t put in the time to properly learn the game it can be an exercise in frustration.

Jim


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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 7:38:45 PM   
Balou


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I am a 50+ years veteran of wargaming. From my viewpoint - in a daily preventive struggle against Alzheimer - every $ /€ spent for games like WitW (just finished Husky against AI on challenging) is by far cheaper than every prescription.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 7:53:45 PM   
Qwixt


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I am making the exact same decision between these three games. I started out thinking this is the year for WITP:AE, then I watched the stream for WITW. I had this impression of GG games that WITE and WITW were nothing more than massive amounts of units on hexes, so I never even really looked at them before. But the video stream of WITW showed me that it was much more than that. A lot of care has gone into making the game easier to learn.

With my research so far, I have found WITP:AE is far more complex, and the micromanagement level is not even comparable between the three. The scope is larger. Much more granular turns. Units can be trained and have skill levels. It's the cheapest price of the three, and the oldest. It still gets regular support and has an active community.

WITW appears to be the easiest of the three to learn and manage. Where it differs from WITE, is that it has naval invasions, and a streamlined/different air combat interface. It might possibly have some interface improvements over WITE so it makes more sense. I think I could get into WITW the fastest. It's the most expensive of the three.

WITE is all about the land war. I have not done too much research into this game. I only started to look at it because of WITW. I could not get a feel for how air combat is handled, or the differences between it and WITW.

I plan on playing single player only. So I have been trying to access AIs between the three. WITP:AE appears to have problems because it so large and complex. It might give you a game early on, but then buckle as time progresses. Maybe in smaller scenarios this won't be a problem or with mods? Not sure. I read some AI complaints in WITE when the AI was suppose to be the attacker. Apparently, the AI could be helped by increasing morale(?) or something. Considering I never know player skill when someone complains about AI, I have no idea how much of a challenge any of the games are. But it seems that everyone steam rolls the AI in WITP:AE, or the people I watched were very good.

If I don't bring money into it, I would pick WITW. I think it would be the most playable of three for me. But I have been thinking about WITP:AE, and watching it for years. I think I could handle some smaller scenarios (which should help the AI issue) and have a lot of fun. I doubt I would ever have the time (or attention span ) to play a full campaign.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 7:55:34 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

I am a 50+ years veteran of wargaming. From my viewpoint - in a daily preventive struggle against Alzheimer - every $ /€ spent for games like WitW (just finished Husky against AI on challenging) is by far cheaper than every prescription.


There is something to be said about this. Keeping mentally active is thought to be a good defense against memory loss.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 9:13:28 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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I'm also on the fence here. Never really got into WitE merely for the fact that I just didn't devote the time needed to learn and for the sheer number of units to maneuver each turn. As I understand it, WitW should be easier in this regard. Plus the air war and logistics seem to be an improvement over the other.

Hmmmm.

Man I have a ton of games that never got the attention they deserve.

Choices, choices.

mo reb

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 9:18:59 PM   
FroBodine


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Me too, mo reb. Too many games, not enough time to enjoy them all!

But, I'm going to go for it. I have never really gotten into a monster computer wargame, but the West and Grigsby and Billings is just what I have been waiting for.

I will learn this game, yes I will.

< Message edited by jglazier -- 12/6/2014 10:20:08 PM >

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 9:21:20 PM   
davidepessach

 

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Thanks a lot guys; I think I will go for WITW; it makes more sense in any category, except the price one... :-)

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 10:08:54 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Pulled the trigger myself. Somehow I knew I would.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 10:23:09 PM   
FroBodine


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We're so weak. It's a good thing we are not being interrogated.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 10:37:11 PM   
Rongor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

I am a 50+ years veteran of wargaming. From my viewpoint - in a daily preventive struggle against Alzheimer - every $ /€ spent for games like WitW (just finished Husky against AI on challenging) is by far cheaper than every prescription.

I thank you for these words, as this is exactly the strategy I plan to go when I reach higher age. This gives hope that this idea isn't at all naive. I think games like these are very best matter to keep my brain decently active.
Wish you all the best, me approaching the 40s...

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 10:43:10 PM   
FroBodine


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A mere child. Enjoy the 40s. I'm at the top end of them myself.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/6/2014 11:52:59 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Wargaming is also my mental health strategy.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 12:53:26 AM   
Qwixt


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After looking into WITE, I think I am going to pull the trigger on that game. With the current sale, I can get the base game + the two expansions which have smaller scenarios.

I am looking for single player experience here, and simpler scenarios. I think WITE will provide that better than WITW and WITP:AE at this point in time. I have concerns with the micromanagement level of WITP:AE. I am not sure I would find the game enjoyable, although I am really interested in that portion of the war far more than Europe currently.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 3:25:02 AM   
Delaware

 

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I wish I had seen this thread before I plunked down my $50 for WITPAE. I like air war and carriers but WITW was a second choice, hope I don't regret it.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 6:08:15 AM   
MisterBoats

 

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AE has paid for itself many times over in the amount of enjoyment I have received from playing it since its release date. I started a grand campaign scenario (vs the AI) in May of last year, and finished it in December ('13). Every moment of the campaign was enjoyable. Learning the systems and sub-systems is a long process, but it's really just a matter of commitment. The smaller scenarios are valuable as learning aids and are quite enjoyable on their own. Of course, a lot of the management can be left to the computer.

As for picking one of Grigsby's games over the other, it's just a matter of what campaign holds the most interest for you. WITE is THE Eastern Front simulation of all I've played. I intend to continue with AE until I croak. Now, having played WITW for many hours, I'm certain that I will be playing it regularly. Between the holiday sales and the weekly specials, all three can be had for less than $200, I think. I spent much more than that on arcade games in the early 80s, for no appreciable benefit.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 9:07:59 AM   
oldspec4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

I am a 50+ years veteran of wargaming. From my viewpoint - in a daily preventive struggle against Alzheimer - every $ /€ spent for games like WitW (just finished Husky against AI on challenging) is by far cheaper than every prescription.


IMO, your comments are right on target; and mirror my attitude on wargaming (and gaming in general).

This is from a old gamer w/ beaucoup computer/boardgames now fast approaching medicare. Gonna soon find out if my mental training and gym rat routine has worked




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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 9:40:40 AM   
downtown


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Like others on this thread, I play wargames partly to help fend off memory loss. I have also found some math books for free online and I have started getting into mathematics again. I loved them when I was in high school, and I found that working calculus again from the beginning is bringing back the joy of learning. Oh, I am 58 1/2 today. You are never too old to learn something new!

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 4:20:28 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Greeting from a fellow Combat Mission gamer. War in the Pacific AE is awesome, but its really about capturing/holding key atoll/islands and land masses where you can build airbases and enlarge ports. Its really focused on air power, sea power and logistics. The land combat aspect of the game is not really as fleshed out as War in the East or West.

Sounds like you love the Eastern Front the most and that was really a land combat theater. The only combat zone in War in the Pacific that comes close to the size and scope of the Eastern Front is the CBI and that really is not the main event.

I have War in the East too, but haven't really gotten into it, but stating to take another look, now that I have war in the west.

You'll spend a lot of time moving supplies in WitP to where it needs to be. That is your number 1 concern.

Also are you planning on playing against the AI or another person, because War in the Pacific against another person is a completely different experience. I haven't played War in the East or West against another person, but being a Combat Mission person too I can tell you playing against the AI and against another person is a completely different experience and what you lean against the AI will get you wiped out quickly against another person.


Hi sfbaytf

In all of my computer war games I have played against an AI except with Cod2. I believe a decent AI is a good tool to learn the game without getting crushed in combat and getting discouraged, my son who is 45 plays combat mission pbem every day of the week against at least 8 other individual game players, how he keeps everything straight is beyond me, but he loves the game and owns every combat mission game ever made.

The game is well done but I am not into little soldiers running around a map even though it looks pretty real. I like intricate games but don't like to play them, too time consuming, I know weird. I am a beta tester for MWIF, believe me not bragging about the condition of that game even though it is improving.

But MWIF is the perfect blend for me, very intricate with total control of all factors of the game not too many units to move around, but I like the way the air war is done and the naval aspect of the game, the game is right up my alley but as you know a lot of problems but if someday these problems are solved I feel it will be the finest war game ever made. I am hesitating on WITW, not so much financially but the sheer scope and magnitude of the game, good thing it is not covering the whole war, Pacific and Europe.

But as a poster said above it keeps the brain working at older ages, better than medicine.

Bo

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 4:33:52 PM   
Toby42


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I'm on the "Fence" too, but not because of price. I'm not sure that I'm up to another Grigsby Game and get lost in the details? At times I'm just not into micro managing!

< Message edited by Treale -- 12/8/2014 5:36:59 PM >


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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/8/2014 7:17:45 PM   
mic211


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Interesting debate - hope you allow a question along the same path. I myself spend my pc-sparetime on World in Flames - an all time favourite - but is considering one of the 'monstergames'. Actually just got Schwerpunkts new World War II, but haven't had time to play it yet - but is wondering if it should have been WItE (WItW cost a little bit to much for my budget right now). How do you experts rate Scwerpunkts games compared to Gary Grigsbys?

Thanks.
Michael

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/9/2014 12:10:04 AM   
Numdydar

 

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I have played Russo-German war quite a bit. Plus WitE. I actually prefer RGW over WitE. Most likely because the support units are built into the divisions and the air system seems easier for me. The downside to both games is that there are a LOT of units to move.

I do think the AI in WitE is a lot better than RGW. That could also be a reason I prefer RGW lol. Although in my last game of RGW it was a pretty close race to capture Moscow (I did), then quickly realize that it was pretty much impossible to hold it over the winter turns.

So both games have my love . But I think WitW is much better than both of them and will only get better.

I should point out that my wife is going to be upset with me because of you. I would be $50 richer if you did not point out there their new ETO game was out . So if I get divorced its your fault.

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RE: On the fence here, what to do? - 12/9/2014 1:47:33 AM   
ogre

 

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Ya'll think you've got a problem. I bought WITP-AE six months ago and haven't installed it yet!

I was waiting for WITE to hit the Christmas price point and buy it.

And Lo and behold, out comes WITW!

So, I'll probably buy WITW (with the book...gotta have the book), play what I can over holidays. And while I'm maybe 10% through WITW, pony up and buy WITE before the Christmas price point ends...but will probably not get it loaded til Summer. WITP-AE....ahem...I don't know.

Have no fear, I've got about five "hard" games still in wraps on my shelf. Won't be long before I need to put those in my will...'cause at my current rate, I'll never open 'em.


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