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RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 1:59:38 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Well Atari 2600 games in 1977 cost $30 and with a 260% inflation increase up to 2013, games are actually cheaper than they were then. And there's no comparison between these games and Atari 8-bits. Sure they were bleeding edge at the time, but the content and documentation, not even considering the modding abilities of today's titles, doesn't even come close.

I'd say while today's games are not within everyone's budget, IMO, they are a great deal when it is a title that you can spend many hours enjoying.

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 12/7/2014 3:01:36 AM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:27:39 AM   
Gilmer


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Off topic: Nice game tonight, MR.

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Post #: 32
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:32:09 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Off topic: Nice game tonight, MR.


Good Game. Dang that 'Bama defensive line is big and tough.

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Gilmer)
Post #: 33
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:32:36 AM   
raventhefuhrer

 

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Joined: 11/29/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Outside of price, what would be your recommendation for how we help a customer like you make up his mind?

I'm very glad to hear that you will be able to give WITW a try after all. I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

- Erik


Well, the problem you have is what a lot of 'deep' games have. Namely, what's best about your game is impossible, or at least very difficult to convey through something like screenshots or a brief video. If I see the newest Call of Duty, or some fancy new WW2 shooter game I can hear the music, see the cool graphics, the frantic action - gimmie gimmie gimmie! What a game like that has to offer comes across right away, and if you're into that sort of thing that's great and you can pick it up.

But what's Gary Grigsby's War in the West? It's a nice map with little squares on it. And it's really expensive. That's basically all an outsider looking in can see at a glance, and as someone with no past history with the series, that's not a lot to go on. I mention this only because one recurring theme I've seen in posters in this thread is how great these games are and how much of a master Gary Grigsby is...and that's great if you're familiar with the series but to a neophyte it's like '...okay...'

So what can you do?

1) More pictures - I would post fifty screenshots or more - anything you can find, and pictures with information. You only need one or two of these: (INSERT GENERIC STRATEGIC MAP PICTURE - because I can't post links) What you really want are these: (INSERT PICTURE OF 4th CA ARMOURED DIVISION STAT SHEET w/ Lt. GENERAL HENRY CRERAR PICTURE) full of information, or menus that show different parts of the game. Take a picture of some obscure Polish battalion in Italy, with a nice colored picture of their commander. 'Holy crap! Is that a Slovakian brigade?' Or Heinz Guderian at the head of an Armeegruppe shattering the Western Allies. Or more stuff like this: (INSERT PICTURE OF AIR WAR INTERFACE) pretty color pictured of an Me262, tons of stats, 'holy ----- look at all those buttons. The air war in this game must be really intricate and not just an afterthought'. If you've got a complex game and you're proud of it, then show it in the screenshots - that has a charm all its own, and an appeal to people like me.

This is pornography for your target audience, and speaking for myself seeing those sorts of things would engage me immediately.

2) A Working Demo - Either in the form of a free scenario that anyone can download (just a handful of turns), or an actual demo. That way people can look at the game, touch it, try it, click on all the cool buttons and decide for themselves. It's less of a leap of faith.

3) Manual - Matrix Game's manuals are great. You should have a link to your's, in its full and unabridged edition, posted right next to the 'Buy Now!' link in the store. All I've been able to find so far is a 'preview' posted on the forums here.

One last thing. It's worth noting that the only reason I'm here is because I saw another Matrix Games title (Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm) on Steam, discounted to a very reasonable price. Had it not been for that, I'd never have heard of Matrix Games, or Gary Grigsby, or these forums. Food for thought. Which isn't to say you need to go put your game on Steam, but I think there's probably a younger generation of Wargamers like myself who are a bit of an untapped market. 20 somethings in college, or just starting out.

To be specific, I found Flashpoint Campaigns on Steam, bought it, enjoyed it. Three of my friends (so far) at least have bought it now too. Unfortunately WitW won't be as easy to sell by word of mouth due to sticker shock, but that's a separate issue I guess.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 34
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:33:41 AM   
Qwixt


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I seem to remember most games costing $50 in late 80s. I will admit that price point is a big reason why I do not have more games from matrix. Higher price, then a lot of the games were just too far behind the technological curve in resolution support.

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Post #: 35
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:53:09 AM   
tevans6220

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I think it's worth also keeping inflation in mind. If the games today cost about the same as they cost you ten years ago, that means they've actually gotten less expensive.

FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik


I think you're missing my point. The best example I can give of what I'm talking about is ebooks. I just bought some books for my father for Christmas and I paid $25 a piece for them. The whole set cost me around $125. I bought the same set of digital books for my tablet for less than $50. They didn't use inflation as a reason to keep prices on digital distribution high. If it can work that way for books, why not software? I love you guys but anytime somebody complains about pricing the two things that always come up are inflation and niche market. It's a niche market because you price yourself out of regular markets. Young people that may be interested in what you're selling can't afford it. Digital distribution was supposed to make things cheaper for everybody. But it's not because Software publishers don't pass the savings on to the consumer. Tell me something. Why would anybody who remembers what it was like to get a physical copy of software with maps and a good thick manual for $40 to $80 want to pay that same price today just for a download and PDF file? Inflation may have raised the price of physical copies to almost $100 but digital distribution was not all that common 10 or 15 years ago.

Just an FYI to anybody reading this. I did go ahead buy WiTW so this discussion isn't about me being too cheap to buy the thing. I just think prices for digital distribution is high. Not only here at Matrix but across the whole Software industry. Savings weren't passed on the consumer. We actually pay more for less now.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 36
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 3:42:46 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
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quote:

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Outside of price, what would be your recommendation for how we help a customer like you make up his mind?

I'm very glad to hear that you will be able to give WITW a try after all. I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

- Erik


Well, the problem you have is what a lot of 'deep' games have. Namely, what's best about your game is impossible, or at least very difficult to convey through something like screenshots or a brief video. If I see the newest Call of Duty, or some fancy new WW2 shooter game I can hear the music, see the cool graphics, the frantic action - gimmie gimmie gimmie! What a game like that has to offer comes across right away, and if you're into that sort of thing that's great and you can pick it up.

But what's Gary Grigsby's War in the West? It's a nice map with little squares on it. And it's really expensive. That's basically all an outsider looking in can see at a glance, and as someone with no past history with the series, that's not a lot to go on. I mention this only because one recurring theme I've seen in posters in this thread is how great these games are and how much of a master Gary Grigsby is...and that's great if you're familiar with the series but to a neophyte it's like '...okay...'

So what can you do?

1) More pictures - I would post fifty screenshots or more - anything you can find, and pictures with information. You only need one or two of these: (INSERT GENERIC STRATEGIC MAP PICTURE - because I can't post links) What you really want are these: (INSERT PICTURE OF 4th CA ARMOURED DIVISION STAT SHEET w/ Lt. GENERAL HENRY CRERAR PICTURE) full of information, or menus that show different parts of the game. Take a picture of some obscure Polish battalion in Italy, with a nice colored picture of their commander. 'Holy crap! Is that a Slovakian brigade?' Or Heinz Guderian at the head of an Armeegruppe shattering the Western Allies. Or more stuff like this: (INSERT PICTURE OF AIR WAR INTERFACE) pretty color pictured of an Me262, tons of stats, 'holy ----- look at all those buttons. The air war in this game must be really intricate and not just an afterthought'. If you've got a complex game and you're proud of it, then show it in the screenshots - that has a charm all its own, and an appeal to people like me.

This is pornography for your target audience, and speaking for myself seeing those sorts of things would engage me immediately.

2) A Working Demo - Either in the form of a free scenario that anyone can download (just a handful of turns), or an actual demo. That way people can look at the game, touch it, try it, click on all the cool buttons and decide for themselves. It's less of a leap of faith.

3) Manual - Matrix Game's manuals are great. You should have a link to your's, in its full and unabridged edition, posted right next to the 'Buy Now!' link in the store. All I've been able to find so far is a 'preview' posted on the forums here.

One last thing. It's worth noting that the only reason I'm here is because I saw another Matrix Games title (Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm) on Steam, discounted to a very reasonable price. Had it not been for that, I'd never have heard of Matrix Games, or Gary Grigsby, or these forums. Food for thought. Which isn't to say you need to go put your game on Steam, but I think there's probably a younger generation of Wargamers like myself who are a bit of an untapped market. 20 somethings in college, or just starting out.

To be specific, I found Flashpoint Campaigns on Steam, bought it, enjoyed it. Three of my friends (so far) at least have bought it now too. Unfortunately WitW won't be as easy to sell by word of mouth due to sticker shock, but that's a separate issue I guess.



I'd like to address your points a bit if I may.

1) Nothing wrong with more fanfare. I think Matrix does an alright job of showcasing their games most of the times, but some do not even get the attention they warrant. This could be a manpower issue. You'll notice that some titles are more open during development with many having participation by the programmers, beta teams etc. Others just show up and are ready for sale. IMO, Matrix could do a better job in some cases here. But keep in mind also that much of this responsibility lies at the individual development teams. Some are better than others about hyping their games pre-release. With that said, I agree with you. More is better in this department.

2) There are a few Matrix games that do have demos, but not too many. Of those that do, they are mostly simpler game systems. e.g. Battlefield Academy, Unity of Command etc. It would be nearly impossible to create a demo for a game such as this considering the amount of time that is needed to learn the system. Most people wouldn't invest such time for a demo and it may even put people off. This is where pre-release AAR's come in handy. There is also evidence that a demo on a complex game can actually hurt sales as disclosed by the makers of the original Airborne Assault.

Also, a game like WitW is not exactly your entry level wargame. People looking to purchase this game generally understand that it takes much effort to grasp the concepts and that it is indeed a commitment. Even Flashpoint is a moderate level game as far as complexity is concerned. That being said, I'd love some earlier pre-release videos and AAR's.

Lastly, demo's cost time=money. The payoff has to be worth it.

3) As someone who likes reading manuals, i like this idea. It's not like the pirates don't already have them once released anyways. Would love to hear the reason why they arent.

Always glad to have fresh blood in our hobby. Maybe your friends would be interested in some of the more entry level games of which several do have demos? Hate to overwhelm anyone and turn them off to such a wonderful genre.

This old man is tired so I hope what I wrote makes sense.

mo reb

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to raventhefuhrer)
Post #: 37
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 5:17:28 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3899
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I think it's worth also keeping inflation in mind. If the games today cost about the same as they cost you ten years ago, that means they've actually gotten less expensive.

FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik


I think you're missing my point. The best example I can give of what I'm talking about is ebooks. I just bought some books for my father for Christmas and I paid $25 a piece for them. The whole set cost me around $125. I bought the same set of digital books for my tablet for less than $50.


And how much did it cost to print the ebook? Bind the pages into a paper or hardback? Ship them to a distributor? To their final destination? Pay all the people involved. Then send back the ones that never sell, even at a steep discount?

Now you have an idea as to why digital books are cheaper.


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Post #: 38
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 6:07:45 AM   
tevans6220

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

And how much did it cost to print the ebook? Bind the pages into a paper or hardback? Ship them to a distributor? To their final destination? Pay all the people involved. Then send back the ones that never sell, even at a steep discount?

Now you have an idea as to why digital books are cheaper.


Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point? My point is that digital software is priced too high. One of the biggest advantages to digital distribution was supposed to be cheaper prices. That was one of the selling points when publishers started with it. The other was convenience. No doubt it's convenient but I sure haven't seen any cheaper prices. In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.

I understand the cost of physical software. I understand the pricing of actual books. I understand the overhead involved in storing, selling and shipping physical products. Note I said I paid $25 per book and that a set cost me $125. I also said that the same digital versions of that set that I can read on my tablet cost me less than $50. The retailer (Amazon) could have been like software publishers and charged a cheaper but still relatively high price for the set of ebooks. Instead they passed the savings on to the consumer. Software publishers should really think about doing the same. I bought WiTW but came very close to spending my $80 on boardgames and books. Something that actually will last longer than a few years. You can't compare a board game or book to a piece of software. There is no comparison. The game or book, if properly taken care of, can last a lifetime but software is like a perishable item. It has a short shelf life. Personally I don't mind paying more for things that are going to last but I don't like paying for things that I won't be able to use maybe 5 years from now. Digital software is priced too high. Not only here at Matrix but throughout the whole software industry. It's why people wait for the sales like the Matrix Holiday sale or the Steam Holiday sale. People want value for their dollar.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 39
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 6:42:14 AM   
76mm


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quote:

Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point?


Uh, unless I'm missing something, his point is exactly what you are saying. I took his questions as a form of the Socratic method*...

*The Socratic method is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.

I don't agree with this line of reasoning--the quality of current games is generally far ahead of games from the old days. Personally I'd much prefer to pay more for a better game and a pdf manual, not to mention digital download, which is incredibly convenient.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/7/2014 7:49:17 AM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 7:36:22 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3899
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point?


Uh, unless I'm missing something, his point is exactly what you are saying. I took his questions as a form of the Socratic method*...

*The Socratic method is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.

I don't agree with this line of reasoning--the quality of current games is generally far ahead of games from the old days. Personally I'd much prefer to pay more for a better game and a pdf manual, not to mention digital download, which is incredibly convenient.


Me thinks he doesn't get it. An ebook is cheaper than the hardcopy. An egame is cheaper than the hardcopy. If one is going to bring up how ebooks are cheaper than the hardbooks, then one has to understand *why*

And I agree, game quality is far ahead of the old days. Compare SSI's USAAF and Fighter Command to Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich. The last, price wise, is cheaper than the first two were.






< Message edited by Aurelian -- 12/7/2014 8:39:34 AM >


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Post #: 41
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 8:36:36 AM   
goulash

 

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With regards to sitting on fence about price.

I was always dubious to play GG WitE because of the high price in case it turned out not to be my cup of tea. It was not so much the money though that really putting me off but the perception of how complex the game was to be.

Well I bit the bullet and bought GGWitW mainly because it was western theatre and being a Brit, I had a morale duty to splat Germany. I am not adverse to paying for quality but usually I want to check that the game is quality.

Since getting it last night and watching the videos, I have to say I think the game design here is a work of art. It sure has so much to learn to ensure one gets very good at it, but despite the uber amounts of detail under the hood, I have found it quite easy to at least getting to play the first scenario within a couple of hrs, based mainly on trial and tinkering around. The Twitch release vid helped loads but I do believe the interface is very good in its own right.

My true thoughts is that I feel this game has been far easier to learn than the HOI series from Paradox yet much much more immersive. With the HOI game, it is a case read read read and never really getting to play much.

Anyway, I am now considering picking up the WITE collection and Pacific (do I get admiral edition on this one?)

Personally these should go on Steam, there are more armchair generals than you think whom are now in their 40's and starting to look for good quality games as the mainstreams are turning out to be coockie cluster time passers for a few hrs and nothing more.

Its one of those purchases I have, that within a couple of hrs, I know I will not regret it, unlike some where I thought that after the purchase the games needs a lot of work down the road to make the investment worth it e.g. (WIF).

Actually, I cant believe I have had to wait until this time to really spot it so I do think there is a point in the game not getting shown its true potential to the general masses of games. I guess that is a question that the publishers need to address though e.g. release a single scenario demo, more twitch vids, get on Steam more? Who knows?.

To OP = the game is worth the money hands down. I am completely noob to it myself but do not regret buying it.








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Post #: 42
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 9:30:24 AM   
davidepessach

 

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Well the point here is all about economics.
Niche price are "non-elastic", that means that if they change, up or down, the demand will not change.
Of course if they price it 500$ demand will go down, but that's out of the range.

So It's all about finding the sweet spot at which we, niche hobbyist player, will always buy the game. Those that are not interested will not buy it even if it's 20$.
Maybe you can scrap up some buyers on steam sales if you get it down to 10$ (guys not really interested in the game but attracted but the huge percentage of discount) but that would be a disaster as some of us will see that and maybe wait for steam sales the next time...

So the price point is quite right now: AAA title price for a download and a premium for the manual. So the buyer can argue "Well it's the same as a AAA videogame"...

That also explains why Matrix games are rarely discounted; and when they are it is way later than the release date...in order to get latecomers and "onfencers" in.

:-)

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Post #: 43
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 1:38:12 PM   
HeinzHarald

 

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I too like the idea of making the full manuals available to the public. For complex games that are hard to present and prove what their strengths are through screenshots or short videos or demos I find that reading the manual is a good way to evaluate if a game is for me or not. Plus if the manual is good I find that reading it in itself gets me pumped up to play.

I would also suggest creating marketing material that is closely tied to what actually happened. Perhaps clips from a gameplay session where the player tries to follow history exactly, with comparisons to what happened in real life. The intangible feeling of being a part of history so to speak is a great strength in games like this.

< Message edited by HeinzHarald -- 12/7/2014 2:39:33 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 2:33:29 PM   
Numdydar

 

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I love these discussions It happens all the time here. Especially for the older games. " I have to pay what for a X year old game?!! Why is it not on sale for $2 by now ?"

For the new people, the developers for WitW have been making these types of games since the 1980's. Mainly under the SSI brand. And they are still making these kind of games, still in the business, etc. So just a wild thought that maybe they know exactly what the price points should be and where to use their very limited time/resources in marketing these games.

All the games released by 2by3 just have three people doing these. Along with a huge number of non-paid volunteers to help out. Just the fact that they can develop games of this quality is amazing. Similar to Distant Worlds which only has one person develop that title. And the Strategic Command series which has a whopping two people involved.

Since all these people have to also pay their bills, plus matrix gets a cut, the pricing has to cover all of this. For titles that sell maybe 10k copies? The 10K is just a number picked out of thin air so could be more (hopefully) or less (hope not). I'm always surprised that they do not cost a lot more . So when I see something like this selling for <$100 its an automatic buy. As I want to get it before everyone comes to their senses and starts charging a lot more lol.

As far as Steam goes, yes it can help sales, but it has to be the right game for the right audience that is on Steam. Command Naval Ops did not release on Steam but was added after enough positive press was generated and (I assume) Matrix determined that enough people knew about the game and wanted to make it easier for everyone to find and buy. That could happen with WitW too (again assuming the same type of arc Command had).

But adding WitW to steam as part of the launch, Steam users would explode with sticker shock and destroy any good will the game may have warranted. So for anyone interested all they would hear is how much the game cost versus all the great features it has. Not a good marketing strategy.

And of course, this pricing conversation on Steam would continue for the life of the game. "The game is six months old. Why is the price still so high?" Sales would be awful as everyone would be 'sure' that the price would drop to <$20 any day now. When it did not, would start the complaining cycle all over again.

With Command, the price complainers were able to be countered by the many fans of the game highlighting what people would be getting and why they would pay twice as much for it. Which a new game that has been out less that a week, all that could be said is a Gary G. game like WitE but with a lot of improved features that are really cool. Somehow I do not think that would mean a lot to the average Steam users

I'm sure there are a lot more reasons (and since everything I wrote is just guesses lol) of why things are the way they are concerning these types of games. But I am assuming that since Matrix/2by3 has been around a lot longer than a lot of other gaming companies, that their pricing/marketing is working good enough to keep us supplied with these awesome games. I'm sure they could improve things, but if what they have works, I would much rather them work on coding new games versus using their very limited amount of time improving their marketing system

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Post #: 45
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 3:37:02 PM   
wworld7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik



Ah, the 1980's were fun times, and expensive if you bought a lot of PC games.

_____________________________

Flipper

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Post #: 46
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 4:20:35 PM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer

Because the game costs so much! I know it's probably impolite to talk about a company's pricing points, but it's really holding me back right now. I was wondering if there's any sort of demo I could take a look at?

Or maybe some insight into why the game is so pricey, or why it's worth it to buy?


raventhefuhrer,
As Erik already explain this game doesn't have the broad market as certain types of games (i.e. 1st person shooters). I like to refer to these shooter games as instant gratification, but they never were truly satisfying to me in the end.

A game like WitW (and WitE) does not have the backing of multiple product, development, artists, and QA teams. They work on a smaller scale staff and budgets, but don't let that fool into thinking that WitW is anything less than grandiose and deep. I can tell you after twenty plus years of board to computer gaming you'll find nothing like WitW. What 2by3 has done for computer gaming in the last decade is incredible and a dream for us hard-core war gamers. If it were not for the extreme dedication / passion of all the 2by3 staff, consultants, and testers, games like this would never have a chance to even hit the market. Considering what other games are selling for (console game $$$), I think WitW is a bargain for what you're getting. You won't be disappointed.

Have to add that Gary and Joel got me started on strategic/tactical war games back when they were producing gems at SSI. Still remember the tense moments in 'Operation Market Garden' try to get XXX corps to the bridge too far





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< Message edited by abulbulian -- 12/7/2014 5:21:10 PM >


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Post #: 47
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 5:18:03 PM   
bo

 

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I notice some comments about demos in the above posts, yeah right, not Matrix that's for sure, I wrote a post on this a while back about why Battlefront has a demo for every game and Matrix does not, I was poo pooed by some people and of course I had to read Matrix's comments on this why Matrix has very few or no demo's.

There was a post on you tube about why gaming companies do not want to show a demo, it was not flattering to say the least. For example one of the posters mentioned above that Unity of command had a demo, I was unaware of that so I down loaded it this morning to see what the demo looked like, and without insulting anyone's intelligence it was horrible and if anyone saw the demo I cannot believe they would buy that game. So thank the lord for that demo.

Thank god for "you tube" as it has been a big help for many players to see what they are buying before they buy it, my argument has always been how many wonderful games did you buy that are sitting on that I hate the game shelf, why did I buy that game sight unseen.

You get that stale argument well a demo does not really show what the game is about, decent argument but it does not hold water. What it does show you is the graphics, whether little soldiers or civil war cavalry are roaming around or if you like the way the nato counters look and how much information is on these counters, it shows you a form of playability, and yet I know it does not show everything about the game.

The "you tube" one hour version of Operation Husky is very well done and a really great demo even though it is not called s demo. It does not show you the western front in all it's glory but it does give you enough information whether you might want to buy the game.

It is one thing if the game costs $39.95 but if it costs $94.95 that is an entirely different matter. Players who own WITE have an advantage over other people trying to decide whether to put out $94.95 for WITW they have the original game and they pretty much know what to expect from Gary on this game, plus improvements of course.

I believe that WITW will not be on that ugly game shelf for many years to come and if someday Matrix's World In Flames gets finished it will be playable for many years to come due to all the variable options, it is possible with those options that the game will be played differently each time you play it.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 12/7/2014 6:25:59 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 6:23:33 PM   
Rosseau

 

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I paid $80 for Pac War, and it wasn't worth it However, AE certainly is, but too complex for me.

I fully expected $80 for WitW. In fact, Matrix probably takes a significant hit with the physical copy being just $14 more.

WiF at $102 was a poor choice on my part. It's now $69 so I can't even sell it. I'm playing through Barbarossa and must admit the counters look pretty nice.

I paid $5 for Magnifico and was pleasantly surprised. It's a fun hobby and one you'll rarely go broke enjoying.


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Post #: 49
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/7/2014 7:51:22 PM   
downtown


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I just wanted to chime in on the idea of digital books being too high because it seems producers are not passing on the savings to consumers. I like to use the analogy of Fed Ex and UPS. Since both those companies raised their prices quite a bit a couple of years ago when gas went up to $4 a gallon here in the US, how come I don't see them lower prices now at their busiest time of the year when gas here in FLA is now about $2.50 and dropping? Supply and demand...why would they lower prices now when they KNOW they don't have to, that people will still use them just as much now as they did before prices went up. Their profit margins are growing daily just because the market price of gas is dropping....don't expect to see them drop their prices anytime soon.

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Post #: 50
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/9/2014 12:18:28 AM   
fsp1978

 

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First, let me say that I am happy to see that this game is turning out to be a success, because I have high hopes for the projected follow-ups. Personally, I have been priced out of this one, as the Western front in 43/44 is not THAT interesting to me (Bought WITE in its first week of release) and RL commitments are taking too much time. I would enjoy this game, but probably not put hundreds of hours into it. I was tempted by the successful release and the new features. I would buy at around $40-45. Not expecting it to hit that price soon, but that's ok. I am not complaining, just explaining.

First, the price comparison done here compared to AAA games is not entirely correct. Often it is said a AAA game costs ~$60-80 as well, but if we are talking PC here and are just content with a steam key from a key shop (which has always worked for me, without using proxies or anything), the most AAA games can be picked up at around $30-40, not 60-80.

What still holds true for most of us is the following - if you like the game, your return on investment will be a lot better than for any AAA game. Those usually never entertain for more than 30-40 hours, 40-60 hours tops (CIV being an exception). In 40-60 hours, you probably haven't finished your first campaign in a deep strategy game. So those games are worth that amount of money if you plan to really play them to the fullest.

I think the original poster (raven) makes some valid points as well. It is very interesting to see the recent plunge Matrix have taken with Steam resulting in some people finding the way here. It is encouraging as well. I can fully understand that he is very, very hesitant to pay so much money for a small niche game and it may put him off and may put off others which find there way here as well.

I however still sadly agree that this is not a good enough reason to change the prices. As Matrix, I would not change the price for WITW for my case (see above) and not for raven's as well. We as a target group are simply not big enough to warrant that. I know it has been argued to the death in these forums with every big release, but it is still true: Pricing these games at $40 will not bring in enough impulse buyers for games like WITW or WITE. It works with Panzer Corps or Battle Academy, but surely not with hardcore strategy. I have been trying to get a good friend of mine, who loves Panzer Corps, to play WITE with me, but he doesn't want to do it as he can't get past the fact that there are no icons on the map, "just crosses and circles [Armor Divisions]". Anyone knowing a WITE mod which replaces NATO symbols with icons btw?

The demo issue is easy: The cost-benefit calculation simply doesn't work for a game company, which is why so few of those are out there. I once saw a very good YouTube video on this.


However, I am confident we can help Raven with his initial question:
Have you or are you going to spend around 50-100 hours at least with Flashpoint?
Do you like the general hex strategy genre very much?
Can you agree to the idea of not having a combat resolution phase like in FP (WEGO), but taking turns in moving and fighting (IGOUGO) or would this put you off?
Was Flashpoint, a very well made game, the most hardcore strategy you would like? Or could you see yourself liking a game with even more depth and more units to move and tend to?
Can you see yourself spending 50-100 hours with such a game?

If you can answer most of these questions with yes, you can easily take the plunge and buy WITW. You will not be making a mistake. I am sure, any remaining doubts and questions can be removed by simply asking them in this forum.

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Post #: 51
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/9/2014 12:37:56 AM   
ultradave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.




No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )

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Post #: 52
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/9/2014 10:41:57 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3899
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.




No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )


I got the real thing. Only $25 at a used book store.

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Post #: 53
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/9/2014 10:28:06 PM   
ogre

 

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When you buy a software product, you're not really buying something physical. Well, there's the manual this time...and maybe a box...or a CD. And the data manifests as either voltage levels in a computer or magnetic alignment on disks....both of which cost next to zero to maintain. And then there's the distribution channel...the costs and overhead of maintaining a website...managing sales, processing payments, advertising...yada yada. But in the big picture sense, these are side issues.

When you buy software of the caliber of WITW, the lion's share of the purchase is for the intellectual expertise, effort and capabilities of the DEVELOPER(S). Many many many hours have gone into the development of this product. That's what we're paying for. Some for the past, some for now, and some for the future. The product is priced at a point necessary to keep the train running...keep the products coming...keep the support fresh. Priced for SUCCESS!

Is it high? All else being equal, yes. But all else isn't equal. We're talking 2by3 here. A professional group with great track records...professionals in the industry. I've payed over $200 to sit in a stadium for four hours and watch 22 "professional" players bang each other up over a pigskin leather ball. Paying $100 to get my very own edition of a "professional" game like WITW that I can immerse myself in and play over and over and over again for hours and hours and hours. In that perspective, it's a bargain.

Lastly, don't underestimate YOUR time. You are going to spend many hours with this product. So it's not so much a question as to how much the product cost to acquire as it is your cost in time to play it. If I'm going to spend a lot of time learning the product, it better be a good product for my time. I'm willing to pay a premium to a professional I know can deliver...so I don't waste my time chasing illusions of fun into dead ends.

It costs what it costs because it's WORTH it.

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Post #: 54
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/9/2014 11:33:51 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1351
Joined: 8/20/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.




No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )


I got the real thing. Only $25 at a used book store.


Well, I've had mine since college - 1976 or so. Probably paid $25 or so back then new, but well worth it.


_____________________________

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Post #: 55
RE: Interested in buying but... - 12/10/2014 12:30:01 AM   
sfbaytf

 

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Its pricey, but well worth it. Unless you're going to wait for it to go on sale. I bought CMNO and Flashpoint when they went on sale so if you're the patient type just wait. Even WiF is on sale, but I'm going to pass as it looks like no AI till 2016.

I can guarantee if WitW gets completely re-done in 5-10 years it will be priced even higher. I wouldn't be surprised if it in the $150-200 range.

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Post #: 56
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