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RE: Fuel in cargo space - 11/24/2014 1:57:48 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's the current consensus on using AKs and APs to refuel TFs at sea? I haven't done it much in quite a while, but when I played the allied side I did it a lot.


I see nothing wrong in doing so this was a standard practice, DDs in particular where always milking some bigger ship due to their high speed and low fuel storage capability


I was getting more at the technical abilities to do it, not whether they wanted to. Does doing this use up a lot more ops points? Does weather exacerbate the problems?

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Post #: 31
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 11/24/2014 12:39:52 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's the current consensus on using AKs and APs to refuel TFs at sea? I haven't done it much in quite a while, but when I played the allied side I did it a lot.


IRL, Atlantic convoys generally included one or more tankers for refueling escorts. Escorts didn't refuel from freighters. For Japan, refueling escorts from AKs would have been problematic IRL, since around half of Japanese AKs were coal-burners.


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Post #: 32
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 11/24/2014 7:06:04 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I was getting more at the technical abilities to do it, not whether they wanted to. Does doing this use up a lot more ops points? Does weather exacerbate the problems?

I would let that little lizard lay.

Technically, your general cargo ship had no facilities to transfer fuel in mid-ocean. As msieving1 says, certain Atlantic convoys had refuel tankers, but the game mechanics do not support that kind of refuel. In-game, one may drink from ‘other vessel’ bunker, and that it. It’s a mishmash of abstractions, but it’s what you get.

Let this little lizard alone and let him lay on a hot rock and bask his belly in the sun; having visions of maybe becoming a gecko and making a gazillion bucks, or maybe snaking out Bogart and scoring a date with Bacall.

Hey, it’s an abstraction, yeah?


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Post #: 33
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 11/24/2014 7:09:11 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I was getting more at the technical abilities to do it, not whether they wanted to. Does doing this use up a lot more ops points? Does weather exacerbate the problems?

I would let that little lizard lay.

Technically, your general cargo ship had no facilities to transfer fuel in mid-ocean. As msieving1 says, certain Atlantic convoys had refuel tankers, but the game mechanics do not support that kind of refuel. In-game, one may drink from ‘other vessel’ bunker, and that it. It’s a mishmash of abstractions, but it’s what you get.

Let this little lizard alone and let him lay on a hot rock and bask his belly in the sun; having visions of maybe becoming a gecko and making a gazillion bucks, or maybe snaking out Bogart and scoring a date with Bacall.

Hey, it’s an abstraction, yeah?









Attachment (1)

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Post #: 34
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/2/2016 4:20:40 PM   
Yaab


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Thread resurrection.

I was wondering if the Japs converted xAKs to tankers during the war. That would also be handy in the game if you lost too many TKs and have the rule against hauling fuel in xAKs. Found this:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/AtagoM_t.htm

------------------------------------------------------
28 December 1942:
Sasebo Naval Arsenal. ATAGO MARU begins conversion from a cargo-transport vessel to an emergency tanker.

14 February 1943:
The conversion is completed.

--------------------------------------------------

Seems there was a whole subclass of "emergency tankers". Can you convert xAKs to TKs as Japanese in WITP:AE? If so, how much cargo capacity do you lose?



< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/2/2016 4:21:40 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/2/2016 4:49:21 PM   
US87891

 

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Of course they did. That's why you have the conversion options.

Matt

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Post #: 36
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/2/2016 10:30:59 PM   
GetAssista

 

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All Std-.. xAKs can be converted to TK

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Post #: 37
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/3/2016 5:15:48 PM   
Yaab


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I have loaded DBB C scenario 28 (GC), first turn as Japan. Went through all Japanese xAKs available. Found no type with an option to convert to TK. I can convert ships to AD, AG, AV, AKV, AKE, AE, AK, PB, CMc, AMc and others, but not TKs. Do the convertible ones come later during the war?

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Post #: 38
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/3/2016 5:57:07 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I have loaded DBB C scenario 28 (GC), first turn as Japan. Went through all Japanese xAKs available. Found no type with an option to convert to TK. I can convert ships to AD, AG, AV, AKV, AKE, AE, AK, PB, CMc, AMc and others, but not TKs. Do the convertible ones come later during the war?

There are some xAKs with 5800 endurance and 12 knot speed. Those should be convertable in June.

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Post #: 39
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/3/2016 6:14:12 PM   
Shark7


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Hmm, my (admittedly quick) research on the Standard class cargo ships shows that the IJN began using a tank that could be fitted into the cargo holds to allow the storage of fuel/oil. The key thing with these tanks were that they were "modular", meaning they could be installed or removed as the need arose. Not a bad solution to the problem TBH.

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Post #: 40
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/3/2016 7:28:49 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
I have loaded DBB C scenario 28 (GC), first turn as Japan. Went through all Japanese xAKs available. Found no type with an option to convert to TK.

I was talking about stock.

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Post #: 41
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 4:22:21 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

There are some xAKs with 5800 endurance and 12 knot speed. Those should be convertable in June.


This is absolutely true in stock, and there're quite a number of them. They go straight to port where they await conversion. No sense losing any before they're useful.

Oh, BTW there're some more that enter as reinforcements. For those of you who like to turn off your merchies, I would recommend you look before you leap.

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Post #: 42
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 4:05:20 PM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
D***... darn you, Symon, there you go again all reason and logic. What are we to do with you. Now I 've got another practice to change in my game play. All that supply I need to bring to Miri to get the oil facilities repaired, and I can't bring back fuel. Thought I was being efficient. Turns out I was using a 'bad' practice.

Rest easy rustysi. It’s not a ‘bad’ practice. The game allows it, it’s described in the manual, and has penalties associated with it. No harm, no foul. It is an abstraction, after all.

Carrying fuel/oil only on TK/AO is simply one of our Babes house ‘realism’ rules. It’s something that works well in our smaller map, shorter time scenarios, but it takes a total grog to use it GC; It does have a bunch of interesting implications, though.

FYI, the small ‘fuel’ capacity of some xAKs is there because there was often a small “liquid” tank in the hold area. This was for chemicals, solvents, naptha, mogas, lubricants, etc. Rarely, if ever, for bunker fuel, and never for crude. These liquid things are all subsumed as supply, so the most realistic thing is just get rid of ‘liquid’ cargo and add it to general capacity, but that would be a pita, and it doesn’t hurt to just keep it, so …. just load it up with supply.


I started using this rule several games ago, and for the Allies it made the game more exciting keeping the Australian economy happy. In addition, I initiated house rules that the Oz economy not allowed to be turned off, and all fuel from Abadan can only go to India. Also shipping resources and fuel to England, even though they don't consume it. These are things I do against the AI to help balance out gameplay.

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Post #: 43
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 4:48:08 PM   
Yaab


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This is strange.

Stock, scen 1.

Japan starts with 71 xAKs of Std-C class.As pointed out earlier by GetAssista, this xAK class can convert to TK class. It loses its 3241 supply capacity and earns 2850 liquid capacity. This is great if you haul fuel by TKs only and start losing too many TKs as Japan.

DBB-C, scen 28.

Japan starts with 0 Std-C class xAK ships. However, the in-game databases has this class, but it seems the ships arrive at a later date. The databases does not show conversion options, so I cannot tell if the ships still convert to TKs later. Can someone open their Japanese DDB-C camapign and check the conversion options. Much obliged.

Anyway, how come 70 Japanese ships were dropped from Dec 7,1941 OOB? It is frustrating if one develops a detailed checklist for scen 1 first turn and wants to use it as a basis for DBB scenarios. Unwelcoming, unhelpful...


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 44
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 5:05:29 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

This is strange.

Stock, scen 1.

Japan starts with 71 xAKs of Std-C class.As pointed out earlier by GetAssista, this xAK class can convert to TK class. It loses its 3241 supply capacity and earns 2850 liquid capacity. This is great if you haul fuel by TKs only and start losing too many TKs as Japan.

DBB-C, scen 28.

Japan starts with 0 Std-C class xAK ships. However, the in-game databases has this class, but it seems the ships arrive at a later date. The databases does not show conversion options, so I cannot tell if the ships still convert to TKs later. Can someone open their Japanese DDB-C camapign and check the conversion options. Much obliged.

Anyway, how come 70 Japanese ships were dropped from Dec 7,1941 OOB? It is frustrating if one develops a detailed checklist for scen 1 first turn and wants to use it as a basis for DBB scenarios. Unwelcoming, unhelpful...



In my DBB-C game, Japan starts with approximately 20 Std-C Cargo Class xAKs (5,800 endurance, 3241 Cap, 12 knot), all of which show the TK upgrade available Jun 42.

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Post #: 45
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 5:14:15 PM   
Yaab


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Here is my xAK list from DBB-C scen 28 as Japan. Dec 7, 1941, non-historical start. I have no ships with 3241 capacity.


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Post #: 46
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 8:35:04 PM   
Shark7


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Ah, its the fact you are using DDB-C, which has modified the cargo capacities of all the cargo ships. I have DDB-A scen 28 loaded and get the exact same list of ships as stock. Since DDB-C reduced all cargo capacities by 30%, look for ships with a 2268 or 2269 capacity to find the Std-Cs (According to what is written about the scenario).

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Post #: 47
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/4/2016 9:19:17 PM   
Yaab


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Still nothing.

1806 cap - Gozan
2294 cap - Ansyu-C
2692 cap - Toho
2731 cap - Ehime
2867 cap - Akasi

Maybe the Std-Cs arrive en masse the next turn?


EDIT: Loaded the Allied Tracker. Both STD-C and STD-D classes are listed as available from Dec 1941, both convertible to TK. Std-C class has capacity 2294, same as Ansyu-C class. Maybe the two classes switched places somehow?




< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/4/2016 9:44:22 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/5/2016 3:41:27 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

This is strange.

Stock, scen 1.

Japan starts with 71 xAKs of Std-C class.

My scen 1 is not the same ... I get a TOTAL of about 70 STD-C eventually, but I do not start with that many ... roughly start with 18 or so ... maybe my counting is off or my scen 1 corrupted, but it has been like this for many years for me ...

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Post #: 49
RE: Fuel in cargo space - 10/5/2016 4:18:42 AM   
Yaab


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Finally!

Seems my inexperience as the Jap player shows in this thread.

Basically, Graffin was right - they are xAKs with 5800 endurance. They have the SAME capacity as Ansyu-C xAK class. In DBB-C this capacity is 2294. When you scroll the xAK list it is easy mix the two classes - Ansyu-C has 6100 endurance, while Std-C has 5800 endurance.

And Pax Mondo is right too - I have 17 Std-C ships at start.

I guess it would be better to have these two classes differentiated by a single point of capacity - i.e Std-C would be 2295, while Ansyu-C can stay at 2294.


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 50
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