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First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong?

 
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First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/7/2014 7:31:47 PM   
rustinpeace91

 

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I have no idea where to post this since it's an abandon ware game for DOS but I guess I'll start here. I'm somewhat of a war-game newbie. I started with Paradox titles and found I enjoy hex and counter games a lot more. My favorite war-game by far is Unity of Command and I've also played all of David Kershaw (Wargame: Poland 1939, Korsun Pocket 1944, Korea 1950, Sicily 1943) games on iPhone and WW2 Time of Wrath. The reason I was drawn to Clash of Steel was because it combines all the elements I like in grand strategy and ground combat. Also I've been on a 2 week road trip which gives me ample time to read the manual and try to understand the game. I played my first game as the Russians. I successfully kept the Germans at bay by producing cheap infantry units and defending rivers and cutting off supply lines. The Wermacht offensive slowed down significantly by the winter of 41, when russian winter struck and I got a horde of katyusha rockets. It came to a complete halt about 100 miles from Moscow and 300 miles from stalingrad (meaning the battle of stalingrad never even happened in my game) and turned into a soviet offensive by the fall of '42. Here's what happened though: the allies never helped out. In '42 they launched a weak and failed offensive in North Africa, then basically pulled back. In '43 there was no attempt to land in Italy. OK i thought, maybe they are biding their time and preparing a large landing somewhere else. This seemed to be the case as they were building up hordes of units in England, possibly getting ready to launch a large scale attack. In the spring of '44 I broke through the south of the Dnieper river and began to encircle most of the German units in major Russian cities. My counter offensive was progressing slowly but surly, with no allied help. June of '44 came and there was still no allied intervention, just more units being built up in England. What eventually happened is I managed to drive the Germans to the borders of Poland by the end of '45. However since I was unable to take berlin I lost the war and the Axis, who still healed Italy, Spain, France and North Africa, dictated the negotiations. The allies were still just waiting in England, tapping their feet.

What happened here? I want to play another game of Clash of Steel for sure. I really like it, but I want to know why the Allies were unable, or unwilling to help out at all? Anyone experience this? is it a bug? or is there something I, as the Soviets, could have done to prevent this.

< Message edited by rustinpeace91 -- 11/7/2014 8:36:56 PM >
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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 12:21:50 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Most operational strategy games of this type do not do amphibious assault invasions very well and thus bog down to doing nothing if the ai plays them. The only one I've ever played that did decent allied amphibious invasions was Making History I and II. It's a turn based HOI basically and is pretty good. You might want to pick that up and try it or stick to land based combat and battles only where there are no amphibious assauts needed. Usually the ai can play one or the other pretty good as in naval or land based only but not amphibious landings. Just a fact of computer wwII wargames for the most part. I haven't seen one other than Making History that actually does it well. They all do them just not very good.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 12:47:32 AM   
ryan1488

 

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An oldie but goodie, I've ran into the same problems myself. Just be both Russians and western allies.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 1:31:37 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

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RP91, you're a perfect candidate for Strategic Command, a grand strategy wargame based upon the CoS theme. SC2 is now global and the AI will do successful amphibious landings, but don't take my word for it, try a free demo. I would suggest going straight for "Assault on Democracy", but be prepared to have your a$$ handed to you by the AI as you'll have a simplified learning curve with enormous subtle depth using a very friendly UI.

Once you master the AI, probably in about a year, then either play against a human or perhaps SC3 will be available.

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 11/8/2014 2:33:33 AM >

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 8:18:33 AM   
Neilster


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Also, have a look at the World in Flames thread. It's still a work in progress but the underlying game engine is from the best strategic WW2 boardgame around.

1: The land unit types

2: An example of the map and some Japanese units

3: The actual size of the global map in the game. BTW, I purchased the hardcopy of this map. It comes in six sections.

Cheers, Neilster










Attachment (3)

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 8:59:11 AM   
rustinpeace91

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rs99z28

An oldie but goodie, I've ran into the same problems myself. Just be both Russians and western allies.

What if I loaded another save game with that setup just to make the landings, then left control of the allies to the computer for the rest of the game so I could focus on the Russians. Would that work?

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 12:41:10 PM   
Greybriar


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I second what SeaMonkey wrote: get Strategic Command. Not only is it an upgraded version of Clash of Steel without the bugs, but it is DRM-Free and legal; abandonware is not legal.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/8/2014 1:17:47 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I second what SeaMonkey wrote: get Strategic Command. Not only is it an upgraded version of Clash of Steel without the bugs, but it is DRM-Free and legal; abandonware is not legal.


That's a broad statement Greybriar not all abandonware is illegal.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/9/2014 4:04:09 AM   
Greybriar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I second what SeaMonkey wrote: get Strategic Command. Not only is it an upgraded version of Clash of Steel without the bugs, but it is DRM-Free and legal; abandonware is not legal.


That's a broad statement Greybriar not all abandonware is illegal.


The last I heard it is illegal to distribute "abandoned" games so long as copyright holders have not released them into the public domain, and 95 years after the games' release have not elapsed.

But don't take my word for it, check out the information at MobyGames.

_____________________________

This war is not about slavery. --Robert E. Lee

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/9/2014 8:14:39 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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You may have heard of the IDSA from their involvment in the annual Electronic Entertainment Expo. The IDSA is a non-profit organization that was founded to support and represent the entertainment software industry. Representation, of course, includes legal representation, which in turn includes performing legal services that individual game companies may not have the time or resources to do so. Various duties include legal advice for game companies, representation in court, and (of course) protecting the legal rights of a company or companies.

One would think that such services include bringing copyright infringment to litigation, because everybody knows copying software is illegal. (You know the drill: A $50,000 fine and up to 5 years in jail.) But you may be surprised to learn that the recent shutdown activity has nothing to do with copyright infringement. The issue of copyright is never in question; they don't stop you from copying for the sake of preventing piracy. (Profit is never an issue since the companies are definitely not making money from old games any more.) It's all about intellectual property -- the legal idea that anything a company or individual invents is owned by them, and that they have exclusive rights to control its use and availability. Software companies are just as worried about losing control of their creations as they are about losing profits.

Here's the key: You can lose your legal rights if you don't enforce them. So the IDSA continues to shut down sites because rampant copying virtually eliminates a company's ability to control the distribution of their intellectual property.

The IDSA's position can be further illustrated by one of their cease and desist letters that they send to websites they want to shut down. The following is an actual letter (with some details omitted to protect the parties involved) sent to an Abandonware site, forcing it to go permanently offline:





Operator of website http://(url omitted)/abandonware/:

I am writing to you on behalf of the members of the Interactive Digital Software Association ("IDSA"), a trade association whose members include the leading publishers of interactive entertainment software. Our 45 members publish video and computer games for video game consoles, personal computers and the Internet. A list of our member companies is attached as exhibit 1.

We understand that you are distributing unauthorized copies of our members' copyrighted entertainment software titles - which you characterize as "abandonware" - without their permission. Your statements in the disclaimer posted in your Website, that software "piracy" is only actionable with respect to programs currently for sale in the retail market is false. The fact that an entertainment software title is not currently available in retail channels does not mean that it is "abandoned", nor does it authorize others to copy and distribute it without permission. The owner of the trademark and copyright in that product maintain the exclusive right to authorize its reproduction.

As such, your unauthorized reproduction and distribution of our members' entertainment software titles is a violation of their exclusive rights under Sections 106 (1) and (3) of the Copyright Act, as well as a violation of federal and state trademark law and the law governing unfair trade practices.

This letter constitutes notice to you that your actions are illegal and may subject you to criminal prosecution and civil liability. We will be monitoring your Website to see if you are in compliance with the law and reserve the right to take all steps necessary to protect our member's rights, title and interest in their property. If you have any questions concerning this matter, please feel free to contact me at IDSA, 845 Third Ave., N.Y., N.Y. 10022 or by fax at (212) 223-8970.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes I understand what you are saying Greybriar but what you are leaving out is Here's the key: You can lose your legal rights if you don't enforce them. First of all you have no knowledge whether that particular person has gotten a preauthorization to copy or distribute that software (abandonware). That is truely between the individual and the software company/developer in question. It's not fact for every single piece of abandoned software out there. To just say outright it is illegal basically in the same form of broad statement is not correct. There are circumstances that do apply so every piece of software that is called abandonware comes under those rules. If a developer or whoever owns the intellectual rights to software doesn't wish to persue any legal actions then the software can indeed be deemed "abandonedware" and put up for download on these boards. It is not software piracy.

The above information I got from that very same site on that very same page that had "several" links to read not just the page you linked. It's always good to read them all to get a clear picture on the subject of abandonware or shareware or what have you. But, it does come down to the individual holder of the intellectual rights and as long as he/she don't care it's as legal as eating cake. (unless you have diabetes )

Here's some more from those same links on that page: A holder of any intellectual property must enforce his rights or risk losing them forever. In other words, if a copyright holder knows that people are infringing his rights but does not do anything about it, he cannot wait and then sue them for infringement if it turns out the copyright has value in the future (or simply wants them to stop infringing in the future).

So the only real problem consumers can have with the whole situation is ultimately an ethical one. The IDSA, and the software companies they represent, are simply being petty.

Edit: I have one more question to you: What would you call "Steel Panthers W@W" that Matrixgames allows you to download at no charge for free? If I recall they have several games in that dust bin that they give you a link to actually download them for free. Gary Grigsby's origional "War in the Pacific" comes to mind also in that list.

Also I believe Shrapnel has a free Version of Steel Panthers W@W windows modern day edition. What would those be called? Steel Panthers as a game on the shelf type game has been abandoned for years now. The only thing in the intellectual line that they still charge for is the Generals Edition. So, is Steel Panthers "abandonware", is War in the Pacific? they aren't seemingly trying to sue anyone for downloading it for free, the game though they still keep the intellectual rights. Thus abandonware can still be legal to download an even freely distrubuted in this case huh?

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 11/9/2014 10:51:09 AM >

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/9/2014 10:19:16 AM   
gradenko_2000_slith

 

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Something Clash of Steel did that no other wargame of that scale has ever managed, save Wastelands Interactive, is giving control of only one part of the alliance over to player control. Sometimes you just want to be Russia and not have to worry about D-Day, or vice-versa.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/9/2014 1:19:38 PM   
Greybriar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

....I have one more question to you: What would you call "Steel Panthers W@W" that Matrixgames allows you to download at no charge for free? If I recall they have several games in that dust bin that they give you a link to actually download them for free. Gary Grigsby's origional "War in the Pacific" comes to mind also in that list.

Also I believe Shrapnel has a free Version of Steel Panthers W@W windows modern day edition. What would those be called? Steel Panthers as a game on the shelf type game has been abandoned for years now. The only thing in the intellectual line that they still charge for is the Generals Edition. So, is Steel Panthers "abandonware", is War in the Pacific? they aren't seemingly trying to sue anyone for downloading it for free, the game though they still keep the intellectual rights. Thus abandonware can still be legal to download an even freely distrubuted in this case huh?


According to the Matrix Games forums, Pacific War: The Matrix Edition, The War Engine, Titans of Steel - Warring Suns, and War In Russia: The Matrix Edition are available free of charge. Shrapnel's Free Version of winSPWW2 is available here.

"Is Steel Panthers "abandonware", is War in the Pacific?" Obviously not since by definition the term "abandonware" means a game that has been abandoned by its copyright holder, and for which no product support is available.



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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/10/2014 12:37:44 AM   
Greyshaft


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Here's the acid test for you ... write to Matrix and state that you want to load 'Pacific War' and 'War in Russia' onto your own web site and let your customers download it for free. I'm 100% sure that they would write back telling you that they own the copyright yada yada.

Actually, don't write to them. They've got enough work to do. But be aware that providing a game "free of charge" is not the same as abandoning it. In its own way, it is actually enforcing their copyright by showing that they have the right to do this. Just like musicians who provide a 'free' track for download.

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/Greyshaft

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/12/2014 6:28:40 PM   
sIg3b


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A few comments:

1) Clash of Steel is not that good. AI is bad, so way too easy, no matter which side you play.

2) Strategic Command has better AI, but still way too simplistic. One example: As Germany, put all your diplomatic effort into allying with Turkey from turn 1, take Egypt soonest (easy), and once Turkey joins, (1) you get the entire Near East and (2) taking Russia is a peace of cake, since it will concentrate on defending the Caucasus against your Turkish/Italian diversion, and you can roll over it from the West; in short: the AI is easy to fool!

3) No, World in Flames is not the best WW2 boardgame; it´s an operational game turned strategic, which makes it unbearably over-detailed and clunky. Classic Third Reich is the best WW2 strategy game, nothing else even comes close.

There is even an (abandoned) computer version, AI is crappy and pbem not really possible, but I am playing it against myself, because the game is that good!

4) Abandonware: There is an acid test, and it´s really easy: If the game is still being sold, then it´s not abandonware. But if the only way to get it is from abandonware sites, then it can truely be considered abandoned.

Take Gary Grigsby´s Kampfgruppe, which is so old that no one even remembers its existence. I am absolutely sure no one objects to my download of a hacked version. (Unhacked, it couldn´t even be played on a current system. )

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/13/2014 3:32:56 PM   
carnifex


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Heh internet lawyers. This is legal, that is illegal. ROFL. Guy just wants to play some old game that no one gives two craps about, but now the thread is nearly derailed.

This thread is about CoS, advice on how to play, and similar games. You have legal advice, keep it to yourself and stop confusing people with half-correct information.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/16/2014 9:03:44 PM   
rustinpeace91

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Something Clash of Steel did that no other wargame of that scale has ever managed, save Wastelands Interactive, is giving control of only one part of the alliance over to player control. Sometimes you just want to be Russia and not have to worry about D-Day, or vice-versa.

That's not what happened in my game lol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

A few comments:

1) Clash of Steel is not that good. AI is bad, so way too easy, no matter which side you play.

2) Strategic Command has better AI, but still way too simplistic. One example: As Germany, put all your diplomatic effort into allying with Turkey from turn 1, take Egypt soonest (easy), and once Turkey joins, (1) you get the entire Near East and (2) taking Russia is a peace of cake, since it will concentrate on defending the Caucasus against your Turkish/Italian diversion, and you can roll over it from the West; in short: the AI is easy to fool!

3) No, World in Flames is not the best WW2 boardgame; it´s an operational game turned strategic, which makes it unbearably over-detailed and clunky. is the best WW2 strategy game, nothing else even comes close.

There is even an (abandoned) computer version, AI is crappy and pbem not really possible, but I am playing it against myself, because the game is that good!

4) Abandonware: There is an acid test, and it´s really easy: If the game is still being sold, then it´s not abandonware. But if the only way to get it is from abandonware sites, then it can truely be considered abandoned.

Take Gary Grigsby´s Kampfgruppe, which is so old that no one even remembers its existence. I am absolutely sure no one objects to my download of a hacked version. (Unhacked, it couldn´t even be played on a current system. )


If there was any way of getting Clash of Steel on my new computer in a way that supported the original developers I'd do it in an instant, if it ends up on GOG (which i hope it will) I'll buy it in an instant, but it's not, and buying a bunch of floppies for 100 or so dollars from some guy on ebay which gives no money to the developers is just a waste of time.

Funny though, everyone here seems to have a different acid test for this thing,

Think I'll buy Strategic Command though, it's on GOG for 5 bucks and it looks like it could be a lot of fun just for laughs if anything.

quote:



Heh internet lawyers. This is legal, that is illegal. ROFL. Guy just wants to play some old game that no one gives two craps about, but now the thread is nearly derailed.

This thread is about CoS, advice on how to play, and similar games. You have legal advice, keep it to yourself and stop confusing people with half-correct information.



Thank you!

< Message edited by rustinpeace91 -- 11/16/2014 10:06:54 PM >

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/18/2014 7:44:24 PM   
rustinpeace91

 

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bought strategic command. Two things I can't get past. The fact that it takes FOREVER for the enemy to take their turn because it gets stuck on the MPP screen for a while (thought this was a bug with my computer at first but I watched some let's plays and it looks like it's just part of the game) and this weird thing where unless you have sound effects turned on you don't actually see the enemies moves and attacks. This is really annoying because the sound is loud and obnoxious and I like to listen to history podcasts while I play War-Games. No thanks, I think i'll just go back to clash of steel.

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RE: First game of Clash of Steel: what went wrong? - 11/23/2014 9:25:57 AM   
starsima

 

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i hope to get it

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