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What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 1:19:27 AM   
jonreb31


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WARNING - Clicking on this link means you revoke your personal ability to resist starting yet another (maybe your tenth?) War In The Pacific game with the sole intent of invading or defending Hawaii.

I love how this was put together. Very detailed account of the possible scenario.. What If Japan really did attempt to invade Hawaii:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=120787

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 4:14:37 PM   
btd64


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Play Andy Mac's Nasty Nasty.....GP

Remember a Sedative.

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 4:55:36 PM   
btd64


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Started reading the article. Very interesting. I remember a Scifi book that Had the Japanese take Hawaii. Can't remember the title.

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 8:16:38 PM   
jmalter

 

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hi General Patton - wish you could provide the name of that book!

Len Deighton wrote a nice novel, "SS-GB" that explored the world of an English police detective after a successful Sea Lion invasion of England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-GB

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 8:24:59 PM   
IdahoNYer


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quote:

hi General Patton - wish you could provide the name of that book!


Harry Turtledove's Day's of Infamy?

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 8:39:40 PM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

quote:

hi General Patton - wish you could provide the name of that book!


Harry Turtledove's Day's of Infamy?


jmalter, I believe that is it. Thanks IdahoNYer....GP

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/26/2014 9:59:53 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Thanks for the link. I think the reason we see so few PH invasions is the large investment needed and the low gains... Any JFB will go for the fuel and resources first...

Would be interesting to watch though!

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 1:46:28 AM   
btd64


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Based on what I read in the beginning of the scenario, It seems to me that it would be a very big gamble. But if the Japanese took Hawaii, It might of brought the US to the table and look at the ETO harder and/or bought the Japanese a couple of more years. Pacific war till 1947? Most of the ships at pearl would of been lost, and all the aircraft would of been lost. The Japanese would of needed to stockpile hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies. And then when after the DEI/PI/Singers very quickly and secured them by june, 42. At that point, the allies would be very far behind the eight ball. I my opinion, of course. I would be interested in playing such a scenario as allies. If anyone out there, who is good at modding, is interested in putting a scenario like this together. I like a Challenge....GP

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 6:02:17 AM   
jmalter

 

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I've a book somewhere, 'Invasion of Hawaii', describing IJ plans towards that end. Where 3 IJA divs were readied for that invasion, to follow up a successful occupation of Midway in June '42.

In the context of our game, it's really hard to imagine how this invasion could have been successful, even if the USN carriers were annihilated near Midway. The Hawaii invasion would have used the entire IJN fleet, to the detriment of IJ expansion into DEI. Mebbe they could have pulled it off, but only by giving up any ability to hold onto their earlier gains of territory & resources.

There's just no way the IJ could've kept substantial forces supplied in Hawaii.

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 11:41:34 AM   
Mundy


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It seems you saw more of this back in the old version of WITP. Maybe resources weren't such a crunch back then.

I still read the "Beer Made Me Do It" thread now and then.

Oldie... but Goodie

< Message edited by Mundy -- 10/27/2014 2:00:41 PM >


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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 1:25:06 PM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

I've a book somewhere, 'Invasion of Hawaii', describing IJ plans towards that end. Where 3 IJA divs were readied for that invasion, to follow up a successful occupation of Midway in June '42.

In the context of our game, it's really hard to imagine how this invasion could have been successful, even if the USN carriers were annihilated near Midway. The Hawaii invasion would have used the entire IJN fleet, to the detriment of IJ expansion into DEI. Mebbe they could have pulled it off, but only by giving up any ability to hold onto their earlier gains of territory & resources.

There's just no way the IJ could've kept substantial forces supplied in Hawaii.


The Japanese would of had to do it in dec 41, or early jan 42 IMHO. any later and the troops at PH would of been to strong and better organized. Plus if trouble was coming, the fleet would sortie and would not of been lost....GP

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 3:57:26 PM   
HansBolter


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Play AndyMac's Ironman Nasty scenarios and find out for yourself.

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 4:06:04 PM   
crsutton


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Perhaps in the first few day or two of the war but the Japanese never had the ability to land a major force against dug in opposition. It was just not in their playbook. There were a lot of American troops in Hawaii. Without surprise, I doubt the Japanese could have gotten ashore-ever. Historically probably a logistical impossibility. Basically you have to look at the can'ts here. The Japanese would have had an impossible task landing vs opposition, would never have the fuel to support such and advanced base over the long time, and would have been chewed to bits by Americans subs doing so.

And if they took the islands the supposition that the Americans would have put more emphasis on Europe is just dead wrong. In fact the odds are that political pressure (not to mention pressure from the military leadership) would have caused the Americans to do just the opposite and focus on the Pacific. The Guadalcanal campaign had that effect, what do you suppose the reaction would be to the seizure of Hawaii-a place full of American citizens?

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/27/2014 6:02:20 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb
I love how this was put together. Very detailed account of the possible scenario.. What If Japan really did attempt to invade Hawaii:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=120787

This is how operational analysis is done. He not only did the O-plan, but also the top tier Staff plans. In detail. Extrordinary!

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/28/2014 12:30:05 AM   
spence

 

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In REAL REAL life, in 1942 logistical support for the 1+ divisions on Guadalcanal proved to exceed IJN capabilities. The Japanese Army called it "Starvation Island".

Supporting 3 divisions on Oahu at any time during the war was nothing more than the wistful thinking of staff 2nd Looies who'd spent all their free hours sharpening their samurai swords and chasing geishas. Their idea of a major military problem was fetching the colonel's cup of tea without spilling any.

< Message edited by spence -- 10/28/2014 1:32:48 AM >

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/28/2014 1:39:22 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb
I love how this was put together. Very detailed account of the possible scenario.. What If Japan really did attempt to invade Hawaii:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=120787

This is how operational analysis is done. He not only did the O-plan, but also the top tier Staff plans. In detail. Extrordinary!


+1! Amazing how the author has dug in in every aspect of the logistical and military problems.
Impressive!

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/28/2014 4:45:30 PM   
Symon


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Yep. And that’s what Operational Analysis is all about. Glen did a magnificent job in determining the ways and means necessary to invade the HI. But buried in the analysis is the recognition that there’s no PI Operation, and the DEI Operation is to be truncated for the time being.

That is the basis of Op Analysis: What can be done with the troops at our disposal, and what must be foregone as a result thereof? It takes many months (sometimes years) to develop a decent O-Plan.

The tribulations of the 17th Army in the Solomons and New Guinea prove the point. It had divergent objectives across a divergent front, a pitifully small assault force, a non-responsive intelligence organization, a lack of identified reinforcement units, and an utter dearth of planned shipping and sea movement capability for reinforcement; in short, a hand-to-mouth, opportunistic, I have a bigger winkie so bend over, kind of approach.

Solomons had no O-Plan. There was nothing there but some junior officers bring tea and giving adviice about brushing with the iron sleeve. IJ had no backup, it had no transport, it had nothing in the box to pull-up. It was on the back-end of the power curve, which the Allies controlled. Initiative, initiative (l’audace, l’audace, et encore l’audace).

We basically hit them where they weren’t, and where they weren’t prepared to do anything about it. Took major balls at that time of the war, but …


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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/30/2014 12:58:05 AM   
spence

 

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More importantly one should consider the tribulations of the 25th Army when it assaulted Singapore with 3 divisions. The IJA/IJN had a secure base in Indochina only a few hundred miles away and months to prepare and still they came within a hair's breath of having to call off offensive operations because they couldn't supply the army with enough ammunition to force a British surrender. Gen Yamashita got to be famous only because Gen Percival got to be infamous.

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RE: What if Japan invaded Hawaii? - 10/30/2014 7:07:48 PM   
urtel


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I like it...

it is fallow one of mine 2 still wait to be tested ideas about how to play Japan in this game.
1st been total opposite of this aiming to take even less than RL Japan, grouping all combat fleet and couple of crack divisions in middle of that smaller area and wait for counter attack..

2nd use all forces to put USN out of map by taking all(main) entry points, then finish inner points(or bigger chunks) resistance 1 by 1. If first phase go OK that give me time until middle of 43 to finish inner resistance which i think is doable. Main point which need to be taken in 1st phase is PH and i also planing to do it indirectly by taking small bases around then use all IJN air power and good part of IJN warships to control area and take PH...

Mine problem with this plan is not ships or fuel as most of critics of plan say, by my calculations there is enough of ships around and fuel will be close call but i think it will fit, only problem i see is one no one in given thread talk about and that is USN carriers !?!
Without any good reasons OP in opening move sunk two and say nothing about other 2 + 2 beside it will not be enough to take Hawaii back.. OK maybe not for that but for ruining DEI operations while you taking PH they will be more than enough, for raid on Palembang at any time ye for sure, even raid on Japan industry from north is on table with that huge area in imperial hands..
So unless OP make better plan how exactly to kill those beasts i think i will need to stick to plan 1, sit wait and counter-attack...

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