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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/24/2014 8:57:31 PM   
bairdlander


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I never said I support  him.He is relating the opinions/thoughts of his family members who are there in the Mid East.

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 10/24/2014 9:58:44 PM >

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 31
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/24/2014 9:18:41 PM   
Twotribes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

I never said I support  him.He is relating the opinions/thoughts of his family members who are there in the Mid East.

In other words the middle east supports the ISIS terrorists because they are stupid.

(in reply to bairdlander)
Post #: 32
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/24/2014 9:40:28 PM   
bairdlander


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Yes its common knowledge ISIS could not have made their gains without help from the locals.They have a lot of support and among the Muslim community here and in the USA as well,even though when events like these happen they declare they are opposed and ISIS is not true Islam,but its just smoke and mirrors.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 33
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 2:58:44 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 2582
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From: Snowflake, Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

Oh .. and I forgot. In our London parliament, the main defender of parliament, The Sergeant at Arms, only carries a ceremonial mace to protect the elected.


The same in Canada, the Sgt at Arms, however, had a gun in a lock box which he retrieved before shooting the bad guy. I suspect the US House Sgt at Arms may have a similar arrangement.

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Post #: 34
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 3:46:55 AM   
danlongman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

I never said I support  him.He is relating the opinions/thoughts of his family members who are there in the Mid East.

In other words the middle east supports the ISIS terrorists because they are stupid.


It may come as a surprise to someone who so proudly displays his flag but the people of the Middle East
don't always agree with those of Jacksonville, NC. Nor do they accept your assessment of them as stupid.
They have their own system of values and beliefs which are at odds with ours. Many of them see ISIS as the
home team and others as unwanted foreigners.
You can howl at the moon all you like but it won't change that.

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Post #: 35
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:08:12 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

They have their own system of values and beliefs which are at odds with ours.


That gets into some fairly deep philosophy. Are there universal rights and morals, or is the whole field dependent on the place and time you live in? For whatever it's worth, my vote is that wife-beating, amputation for theft, slavery, and stoning are wrong, no matter the place.

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Post #: 36
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:21:48 AM   
bairdlander


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Exactlly,my friend/neighbour says that because ISIS seems to be the "winnning" team they are supported throughout their respective area's of control.The bottom line in my opinion is if USA had not knocked Saddam out,he had control over all the factions and was a USA ally,what he did wrong to piss off Cheney and the rest of the gang is unclear,but only a fool would believe its not about pissing off some guys who own some oil interests in said countries.It still amazes me with so much evidence to the contrary that people on this forum and many other still believe in the 9/11 rhetoric that over 1 million Iraqi's citizens should perish because of 9/11.Before that happened I knew and befriended many small business owners here in Canada who were from Iraq.Last time I spoke to many of them was in 2000 or 2001.At that time period they proclaimed a love of their homeland,peace under Saddam and they were leaving Canada to return to their homeland.I often wonder if they are alive or dead now.Good people.

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 37
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:22:46 AM   
danlongman

 

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There would not be many in Los Angeles who disagree with you but probably more than you think.
Hanging for theft of a loaf of bread has happened in "civilised" countries not too long ago.
For wife beating and stoning and all those other good things they are laws in a lot of places
whether we agree with it or not. So is bombing people indiscriminately whether you call it
"collateral damage" or not. I don't condone any of these things but it is easy for me to preach
from just outside of Edmonton, Alberta about how the folks in Mosul should live their lives.
A few of the pigeons are coming home to roost I am afraid.

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"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 38
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:36:11 AM   
Zap


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Yes, there are universal rights and wrongs. A rationalist will disagree. So, the west, don't accept beheadings of innocents, attacking the whole world by terrorist. I see the only answer to the IS and similar is annihilation.

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Post #: 39
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:50:49 AM   
bairdlander


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Yes ,Zap but does the world agree with past atrocities like Mai Le,in Vietnam and other present day trouble nd what of present atroicities?

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 40
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:56:22 AM   
Twotribes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Exactlly,my friend/neighbour says that because ISIS seems to be the "winnning" team they are supported throughout their respective area's of control.The bottom line in my opinion is if USA had not knocked Saddam out,he had control over all the factions and was a USA ally,what he did wrong to piss off Cheney and the rest of the gang is unclear,but only a fool would believe its not about pissing off some guys who own some oil interests in said countries.It still amazes me with so much evidence to the contrary that people on this forum and many other still believe in the 9/11 rhetoric that over 1 million Iraqi's citizens should perish because of 9/11.Before that happened I knew and befriended many small business owners here in Canada who were from Iraq.Last time I spoke to many of them was in 2000 or 2001.At that time period they proclaimed a love of their homeland,peace under Saddam and they were leaving Canada to return to their homeland.I often wonder if they are alive or dead now.Good people.

There is no evidence a million Iraq's died in our invasion the lancet report that made that claim has been proven several times over to be false. Further support for a terrorist organization that butchers women and children and murders soldiers it captures is proof that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion.

(in reply to bairdlander)
Post #: 41
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 4:59:55 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Exactlly,my friend/neighbour says that because ISIS seems to be the "winnning" team they are supported throughout their respective area's of control.The bottom line in my opinion is if USA had not knocked Saddam out,he had control over all the factions and was a USA ally,what he did wrong to piss off Cheney and the rest of the gang is unclear,but only a fool would believe its not about pissing off some guys who own some oil interests in said countries.It still amazes me with so much evidence to the contrary that people on this forum and many other still believe in the 9/11 rhetoric that over 1 million Iraqi's citizens should perish because of 9/11.Before that happened I knew and befriended many small business owners here in Canada who were from Iraq.Last time I spoke to many of them was in 2000 or 2001.At that time period they proclaimed a love of their homeland,peace under Saddam and they were leaving Canada to return to their homeland.I often wonder if they are alive or dead now.Good people.

There is no evidence a million Iraq's died in our invasion the lancet report that made that claim has been proven several times over to be false. Further support for a terrorist organization that butchers women and children and murders soldiers it captures is proof that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion.

.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:53:25 PM >


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(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 42
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 5:02:18 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6167
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Exactlly,my friend/neighbour says that because ISIS seems to be the "winnning" team they are supported throughout their respective area's of control.The bottom line in my opinion is if USA had not knocked Saddam out,he had control over all the factions and was a USA ally,what he did wrong to piss off Cheney and the rest of the gang is unclear,but only a fool would believe its not about pissing off some guys who own some oil interests in said countries.It still amazes me with so much evidence to the contrary that people on this forum and many other still believe in the 9/11 rhetoric that over 1 million Iraqi's citizens should perish because of 9/11.Before that happened I knew and befriended many small business owners here in Canada who were from Iraq.Last time I spoke to many of them was in 2000 or 2001.At that time period they proclaimed a love of their homeland,peace under Saddam and they were leaving Canada to return to their homeland.I often wonder if they are alive or dead now.Good people.

There is no evidence a million Iraq's died in our invasion the lancet report that made that claim has been proven several times over to be false. Further support for a terrorist organization that butchers women and children and murders soldiers it captures is proof that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion.
warspite1

Whoooah that is a comment too far. You cannot tar all people of a religion because of the actions of a few

Is Christianity a peaceful religion? Take a trip to Northern Ireland over the last 40 years in particular. What happened there doesn't mean all Catholics and Protestants are murderers does it?


Did you happen to read the thread the two defenders of Muslims supporting ISIS both said that a vast majority of the Muslims in the region support them. Hardly a small group. Perhaps instead of trying to blame Christians you should look to the violent teachings in the holy book of Islam.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 43
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 5:11:29 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 39923
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Exactlly,my friend/neighbour says that because ISIS seems to be the "winnning" team they are supported throughout their respective area's of control.The bottom line in my opinion is if USA had not knocked Saddam out,he had control over all the factions and was a USA ally,what he did wrong to piss off Cheney and the rest of the gang is unclear,but only a fool would believe its not about pissing off some guys who own some oil interests in said countries.It still amazes me with so much evidence to the contrary that people on this forum and many other still believe in the 9/11 rhetoric that over 1 million Iraqi's citizens should perish because of 9/11.Before that happened I knew and befriended many small business owners here in Canada who were from Iraq.Last time I spoke to many of them was in 2000 or 2001.At that time period they proclaimed a love of their homeland,peace under Saddam and they were leaving Canada to return to their homeland.I often wonder if they are alive or dead now.Good people.

There is no evidence a million Iraq's died in our invasion the lancet report that made that claim has been proven several times over to be false. Further support for a terrorist organization that butchers women and children and murders soldiers it captures is proof that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion.


Did you happen to read the thread the two defenders of Muslims supporting ISIS both said that a vast majority of the Muslims in the region support them. Hardly a small group. Perhaps instead of trying to blame Christians you should look to the violent teachings in the holy book of Islam.

.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:53:51 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 44
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 5:32:34 AM   
Twotribes


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Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 45
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 5:35:21 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline
.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:54:13 PM >


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 46
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 7:01:34 AM   
bairdlander


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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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come on kids stop fighting,someone' s going to start crying





Attachment (1)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 47
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 10:30:33 AM   
ckammp

 

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My sympathy to the family of the young soldier.

However, I believe it is time for the mods to lock this thread, some of the comments are starting to get out of hand.

(in reply to bairdlander)
Post #: 48
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 11:06:23 AM   
Chijohnaok2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamm

I feel bad for the poor young soldier.
What irks me is apparently they aren't even allowed bullets for their weapons when acting in that duty.

quote:

How exactly in the future are the RCMP going to prevent a mentally ill person from ramming some guy with his car in a shopping mall parking lot?

(in reply to Jamm)


The military service member killed at the war memorial was essentially a ceremonial guard. He does not carry an armed weapon (he had a rifle with no rounds).
As comparison, the U.S. service members that conduct 24/7 watch at the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington, Va also carry rifles that are not loaded.

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Post #: 49
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 11:18:21 AM   
Chijohnaok2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Is no country immune to Terrorist spite? Canada was one of the last countries I would have expected to be hit by terrorists.


Not to deny the horror of having a soldier killed and the seat of government attacked, but I think the wonder is on the other side-- why it took so long. The jihadis have made clear that any nation sending troops into either Afghanistan or Iraq is a target. And Canada's generous immigration policies, like it or not, make it easier for those wishing harm to enter the country.


It was my understanding that both of the men conducting the terror attacks this week were Canadian born.
So their presence there was not a direct result of Immigration.

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Post #: 50
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 11:31:04 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whoooah that is a comment too far. You cannot tar all people of a religion because of the actions of a few


Well said.

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6968999/bill-maher-islamophobia-muslims-violent-debunk

"Amry's point: if Maher's argument is that the rise of ISIS proves that all of Islam is extremely violent and intolerant, then by the same logic wouldn't the spate of Muslim Nobel Peace Prize-winners prove that all Muslims are also extremely peaceful?"

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Post #: 51
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 11:44:30 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.


The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.


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Post #: 52
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 1:14:42 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

It was my understanding that both of the men conducting the terror attacks this week were Canadian born.
So their presence there was not a direct result of Immigration.


Perfectly true. My apologies for expressing myself too briefly. What I was trying to say was that it is actually surprising that an Islamically-inspired attack in Canada didn't happen earlier. There was motive, and because Canada is an open society, there was no great difficulty.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 53
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 1:53:10 PM   
Chijohnaok2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.


The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.



Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.


< Message edited by chijohnaok -- 10/25/2014 2:54:03 PM >


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Post #: 54
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 2:22:14 PM   
danlongman

 

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It is easy to see that even a diverse group like wargamers
contains haters who are utterly convinced of the certitude
of their belief and are willing to antagonise others by
expressing them. All in a sense of spiritual righteousness.
Wherever we go the haters are among us.
Well ain't that just a dandy?

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(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 55
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 5:04:35 PM   
gradenko_2000_slith

 

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Must we really have to trot out the list of contemporary 'terrorist' acts committed by non-Muslims as a counter-example?

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 56
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 6:21:28 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.


You are spot on Twotribes. A failure to HONESTLY understand enemies is fatal.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 57
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 6:29:00 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.


You are spot on Twotribes. A failure to HONESTLY understand enemies is fatal.

.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:54:35 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 58
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 7:13:17 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Show me a man who is prepared to blow the arms and legs off innocent men, women and children.


?? Is that a shot at Bomber Harris? If so, I would disagree.

Regardless, an enemy is righteously subject to any moral threshold that they've transgressed.

quote:

Don't care if he is Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Muslim or any other religion or sect. He's just a %^&^&*


Well, you know what Admiral King said: "When the shooting starts they send for the Sons of B**ches." This is war, not crime and punishment.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 59
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/25/2014 7:19:38 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Show me a man who is prepared to blow the arms and legs off innocent men, women and children.


?? Is that a shot at Bomber Harris? If so, I would disagree.

Regardless, an enemy is righteously subject to any moral threshold that they've transgressed.

quote:

Don't care if he is Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Muslim or any other religion or sect. He's just a %^&^&*


Well, you know what Admiral King said: "When the shooting starts they send for the Sons of B**ches." This is war, not crime and punishment.
Warspite1

The subject in question is terrorist actions - not total war. So no, this is not a statement against Allied strategic bombing in WWII. Don't get me started on that one......


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:54:48 PM >


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Post #: 60
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