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OP nation, Vichy France

 
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OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 3:43:49 PM   
WarHunter


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The Vichy French are not at war with any nation.
Yet, they are allowed to attack seazones with:
1. Mexican ships
2. Panamanian ships
3. Brazilian ships and air
4. US ships and air
5. CW ships carrying US air or land units.
6. Intercept any nations ships carrying US units anywhere in the world.
7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

All of this without lifting a finger. Vichy need not even be Hostile just neutral. Wait for the US to choose options 32 & 50.

Its made possible because of US entry options. Which the US has no option but to accept when it goes to war with Germany/Italy.

Why are we not given a choice to not implement US entry options? What is the reason for forcing them all on the US player?
What historical reason is given for this fubar rules circus with Vichy? What is served by allowing Vichy France all this power?
Do the current crop of players see nothing wrong with this and i'm in the minority?

Is this what WiF has become. Never played this way before and it makes me sad to see how this is how MWiF is implemented.

options below
quote:


32. U.S. Refutes Naval War Zones – The U.S.A. may use its own convoy points to ship any resources and/or builds points that the U.S.A. is lend-leasing to any allied major power. These convoy points may be attacked by Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA. Clarification: Since the quantity of resources and build points being lend-leased is known from the Lending Stage of each turn, that number is the upper limit that the Axis can destroy during the turn in each sea area through which the lend-leased resources and/or build points could be shipped
50. Unrestricted Naval Warfare – U.S. naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fly ground support. You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs. You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38.


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 3:59:11 PM   
Courtenay


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Actually, this only happens when at war with all Axis major powers, which is, admittedly, a distinction without a difference.

As for why MWiF is coded this way, the reason is simple: that is the rule in RAW7. As for why people haven't screamed about it before, it may be that no one noticed. Certainly, I hadn't. However, this is not a new rule in MWiF that was not in WiF; it waa.

I agree that this is a bad rule; it is not the only bad rule in WiF. If I were playing with another human, I would be happy to make a house rule dealing with the problem. However, I do not think it is bad that MWiF correctly implements the RAW.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 4:53:19 PM   
brian brian

 

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Vichy should not be able to intercept anything while neutral, though that is a bit of a grey area deepening on implementation of "freely attack, and be attacked by" in the Entry Option rule. US land/air units being carried by CW transports are specifically exempted from attack by the Multiple States of War rule … unless US ships are also present in the sea zone. Then Multiple States of War covers any resulting combat.

Everything you have described sounds mostly correct and as it works in World in Flames Final Edition. The entry options are considered selected based on who they are aimed at, so probably this is a bit of an implementation bug if the US is not yet at war with Japan, as 32 and 50 aren't aimed at the Euro-Axis or Japan separately. And once at war with all 3 Axis powers, those options are irrelevant. I guess the US and Vichy could still be "neutral" towards each other but the USA would have no reason to remain so, and could declare on Vichy for no Entry cost once at war with Germany, which could give them chances to block Vichy supply if Vichy was still neutral with the CW.

The CW can declare war on Vichy France for a 50% chance of removing a US Entry chit and Vichy would then be out of supply except in the Mediterranean in most games.

The US had complex relations with Vichy France in the war.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 5:25:20 PM   
brian brian

 

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I am used to playing with Presence of the Enemy rules and then the far-flung neutral Vichy ships can be used to reduce those costs for other Axis naval sorties, while the Allies were unwilling to take the possible USE hit of declaring war on Vichy, and sometimes after as Vichy ships could still leave port, once each. We started calling them them the Soviet Trawlers after those that used to always shadow USN task forces during the Cold War.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 6:22:09 PM   
composer99


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Having never seen this kind of situation come up in a game I can't say I find it especially troubling.

That said, I agree the text of the options should be cleaned up such that the Axis units in question are (a) at war with the recipients of the resources/build points being lent by the US (in the case of option 32), or (b) active major powers (in the case of option 50). Such clarifications would eliminate neutral Vichy French shenanigans pertaining to the US while still allowing the US the ability to fulfill the intent of those options (that is, flip the figurative bird at Germany & Japan).



quote:

7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.


Both of those considerations apply to any single neutral Axis naval unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is here. I mean, nothing's stopping the Germans from, say, calling a combined impulse in the very first impulse of the game and, provided they have a ship with the range, sailing it through the Pillars of Hercules.

(Also, the point about supply depends upon the optional rules in play, but as a general matter, if you're not at war with country X, why would your forces cut off country X's overseas supply lines?)



quote:

Is this what WiF has become.




RAW7 has been out since 2004. In 10 years, if this wasn't a big enough deal for ADG to revise the rules (since I personally would), it's either because it happens so vanishingly rarely as to not be worth the trouble (for ADG), or ADG's design intent for the game allows for more ahistorical action than you, personally, are comfortable with. (*)

(*) Never mind the game's basic premise that the Axis have a shot at military victory, which is at least as ahistorical (if not obvious to contemporaries of the time) as Vichy-US shenanigans, and certainly more significant.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 6:34:46 PM   
Extraneous

 

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First Vichy France is a Neutral major power and uses the installing major power’s activity limits.

quote:

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

Using Vichy units
Vichy France does not choose an action type. Instead, she takes the same action type as the major power that installed the Vichy government (even if Vichy France is neutral). Further, activities of Vichy French units count against the installing major power’s activity limits.

Vichy units may only enter a hex outside Vichy France if it is controlled by an enemy major power. They may move into hexdots and sea boxes without penalty.

Each Vichy French naval unit you move (not each task force) counts as 1 naval move unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power. Vichy French naval and aircraft units at sea (except for convoy points) must always return to base during the return to base step unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.



As a Neutral major power Vichy France cannot initiate a naval combat because they are not at war.

quote:

11.5.2 Initiating a combat

To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft




If you are referring to a Search and seizure as an attack on a sea zone then Vichy France must meet the requirements and face the repercussions.

quote:

13.6 Production
Search and seizure
You can stop major powers on the other side that you are not at war with from transporting resources (and build points ~ see 13.6.4 Lend lease) overseas to major powers you are at war with. To do this:

• you must have an SCS, CV or SUB in the sea area during the production step;

• the major power you are not at war with must have convoy points there that are transporting resources (or build points) to a major power you are at war with; and

• there must not be an SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, controlled by a major power you are at war with, in the sea area (or a US unit that can escort there because of US entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 20 US land-based air escort, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Arm merchantmen or 50
Unrestricted naval warfare ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options).

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3 US entry actions) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.



For the CW to DoW VIchy France:

quote:

32. One of the Allies other than the USSR declares war on:
Poland, Spain, Turkey, or any American country (1 USA entry marker and a 70% chance of another will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (1 USA entry marker and a 20% chance of another being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Other minor or Vichy France (There is a 50% chance of a USA entry marker being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/17/2014 7:35:31 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 7:06:32 PM   
micheljq


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You can DOW Vichy France if her SCS go into a sea zone, profit of the surprise impulse and strike the fleet. That will set Vichy active, so what.

When options 32 especially 50 are played, USA is quite geared up already or will be soon. If option 50 is played, USA will be soon at war.

Another thing you can do is DOW Vichy France, strike the fleet at port on the surprise impulse with all the Commonwealth carriers you have, the damage will be heavy, but then Vichy will be hostile. I did it once, and managed to sink or damage all french Vichy battleships.

Most french battleships have only a range of 2, limiting their effectiveness. Richelieu has a range of 3 and can be quite troublesome.

The trick is to disperse all France's ships in it's colonies (except the BB), just before France falls. Sending many in the Pacific, where the chances of them being Free french are good, it must be done one or 2 turns before France falls. Also having the fleet dispersed means Germany or Italy must do naval action to move all of them at once. They can be intercepted peacemeal, or bombarded separately in their ports.

Michel.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 10/17/2014 8:34:24 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/17/2014 11:07:12 PM   
Extraneous

 

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When does Vichy France becomes hostile?

quote:

Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France. The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power.

However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.



micheljq means that if you Port Strike the Vichy French fleet in Metropolitan Vichy France.

Then Vichy France would become hostile.



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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/18/2014 2:35:56 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The Vichy French are not at war with any nation.
Yet, they are allowed to attack seazones with:
1. Mexican ships
2. Panamanian ships
3. Brazilian ships and air
4. US ships and air
5. CW ships carrying US air or land units.
6. Intercept any nations ships carrying US units anywhere in the world.
7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

All of this without lifting a finger. Vichy need not even be Hostile just neutral. Wait for the US to choose options 32 & 50.

Its made possible because of US entry options. Which the US has no option but to accept when it goes to war with Germany/Italy.

The answer is obvious. DoW Vichy. If you are at war with Germany/Italy, you'll be at Total War within 2 turns anyway.

Another point here. The US should not have chosen 32 and 50 until at war with everyone but Vichy. "When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44)."

Also, (normally) where is Germany getting the naval moves to move neutral Vichy ships? Like they've got nothing else to do?

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/18/2014 3:39:58 AM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/18/2014 3:12:05 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

You can DOW Vichy France if her SCS go into a sea zone, profit of the surprise impulse and strike the fleet. That will set Vichy active, so what.

When options 32 especially 50 are played, USA is quite geared up already or will be soon. If option 50 is played, USA will be soon at war.

Another thing you can do is DOW Vichy France, strike the fleet at port on the surprise impulse with all the Commonwealth carriers you have, the damage will be heavy, but then Vichy will be hostile. I did it once, and managed to sink or damage all french Vichy battleships.

Most french battleships have only a range of 2, limiting their effectiveness. Richelieu has a range of 3 and can be quite troublesome.

The trick is to disperse all France's ships in it's colonies (except the BB), just before France falls. Sending many in the Pacific, where the chances of them being Free french are good, it must be done one or 2 turns before France falls. Also having the fleet dispersed means Germany or Italy must do naval action to move all of them at once. They can be intercepted peacemeal, or bombarded separately in their ports.

Michel.

Excellent point. The Vichy ships should either be BBs bottled up in the Med or CAs and Subs, that are OoS in Africa.

(Equatorial Africa is better than the Pacific.)

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/18/2014 4:13:55 AM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/18/2014 3:58:37 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The Vichy French are not at war with any nation.
Yet, they are allowed to attack seazones with:
1. Mexican ships
2. Panamanian ships
3. Brazilian ships and air
4. US ships and air
5. CW ships carrying US air or land units.
6. Intercept any nations ships carrying US units anywhere in the world.
7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.

All of this without lifting a finger. Vichy need not even be Hostile just neutral. Wait for the US to choose options 32 & 50.

Its made possible because of US entry options. Which the US has no option but to accept when it goes to war with Germany/Italy.

The answer is obvious. DoW Vichy. If you are at war with Germany/Italy, you'll be at Total War within 2 turns anyway.

Another point here. The US should not have chosen 32 and 50 until at war with everyone but Vichy. "When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44)."

Also, (normally) where is Germany getting the naval moves to move neutral Vichy ships? Like they've got nothing else to do?


Vichy is an Axis major power... This means that even if the US is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan, options 32 and 50 (and all other options which states "ALL"), should not be considered chosen due to DoW's if the US didn't DoW Vichy too. Is MWIF coded this way?
Also: in this case, the US should be able to continue to choose entry actions too (but it isn't allow to draw additional chits)...

I don't know it this has been tested, since it is rather obscure, because I don't know why the US wouldn't DoW Vichy the moment it is at war with all other Axis major powers...

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/18/2014 4:34:33 PM   
paulderynck


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Good points, Centuur.

As to not DoWing Vichy, maybe they're afraid of losing chits.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 12:58:25 AM   
Courtenay


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Excellent point! I had never noticed that the "All" options should not be considered chosen until the US is at war with Vichy France, or there is no Vichy France.

This rule solves the problems with Vichy described above. Of course, it also introduces other problems:
There are many important "All" options that probably have not been chosen, such as US advance builds. For that matter, War Appropriations may not yet have been chosen, although it probably could be. The really strange one is that "Close the Panama canal" may not have been chosen.

I have not tested this. Has anyone? One could start with one of the 1941 scenarios and have Germany, Italy, and Japan all go to war with the US. The questions would be are all the US entry options picked, and, if not, does MWiF give the US entry chits during the US entry step of the End of Turn stage?

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 12:00:10 PM   
Extraneous

 

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If no one has DoWed Vichy France it is a Neutral major power. It is not an Axis major power even though it is controlled by the Axis major power that installed it.

If Vichy France has been DoWed it is a Active Axis major power but not necessarily hostile.

When "All" means every unchosen entry option aimed at that major power vs. when "All" means every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland).

quote:

13.3.2 US entry options
When the US goes to war with a major power, you are treated as having chosen every unchosen entry option aimed at that major power. You still roll for each of these options but don’t have to move a marker to the tension pool when called for unless you so desire (except for your declaration of war ~ see 9.4 US entry). You do this on a case by case basis.

When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland).


quote:

9.4 US entry
The USA can declare war on Germany and Italy in the same step but it can’t attempt to declare war on Japan in the same step as it attempts to declare war on either of the others.

The USA may declare war on Vichy France (see 17. Vichy France) in any declaration of war step provided the USA is at war with Germany or Italy. This is automatically successful (see US entry action 32 US refutes Naval War zones).




If the Allies can get the Axis to collapse Vichy France why DoW Vichy France?

quote:

Vichy French collapse
Each home country or territory aligned with Vichy France becomes conquered by any Axis major power that has a land unit in it. Other home countries and territories aligned with Vichy France align with Free France (or become Free France with a new home country if it is currently completely conquered).
Move all Vichy land and aircraft units in Metropolitan Vichy France to the Free French force pools. All other Vichy land and aircraft units are now Free French.

All Vichy naval units on the production circle, construction pool and repair pool become controlled by the Axis major power that caused the collapse.

All on map Vichy naval units are now Free French. Treat each of them in a home country or territory now controlled by an Axis major power as if it had been surprised when overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).


Vichy French naval units cannot do Search and Seizure unless they are Hostile to an Allied major power.

quote:

Each Vichy French naval unit you move (not each task force) counts as 1 naval move unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.

Vichy French naval and aircraft units at sea (except for convoy points) must always return to base during the return to base step unless Vichy France is hostile to an Allied major power.





< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/19/2014 1:01:48 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 2:18:36 PM   
Centuur


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I do not agree on Vichy not being on the Axis side. It is an Axis major power. There are references in the rules and the FAQ which support this...




< Message edited by Centuur -- 10/19/2014 3:21:29 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 6:31:17 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

If no one has DoWed Vichy France it is a Neutral major power. It is not an Axis major power even though it is controlled by the Axis major power that installed it.



Vichy is a major power per the rule for it being created. There are two sides in the game, Axis and Allied. Saying Vichy is not an Axis major power while it is neutral is the same as saying Italy is not an Axis major power while Italy is neutral... which of course, is ridiculous.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/19/2014 7:33:39 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 6:54:54 PM   
Extraneous

 

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When you say FAQ do you mean "the 2008 WiF Annual (incl Factories in Flames)" or the "WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009"?


Q2.4-1 2.4.2 particularly points out the differences between the three states of Vichy France.

Vichy France is controlled by the major power that installs it. It does not make Vichy France an Axis major power.

Axis units cannot trace supply through A Neutral Vichy France.
A Neutral or Non Hostile Vichy France cannot lend lease BP or resources.
Axis units cannot move through a Non Hostile Vichy France without collapsing it.


quote:

AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009, Australian Design Group
2.4 Supply
Q2.4-1 2.4.2 May Axis units trace supply through Vichy French territory when it is
(a) neutral, (a) No.
(b) active (b) Yes.
(c) active and hostile? (c) Yes.
Date 25/06/2008
2.4.2: You can’t trace any supply path: 3rd bullet is : into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
25/06/2008


5.1 Trade agreements
Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest? (a) No
(b) Complete Conquest? (b) yes
(c) Vichyfication? (c) no.
Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified below.
05/07/2007


9.6 Calling out the reserves
9.6: Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power.


13.7 Peace
13.7.5: Return half of the liberated country’s units not currently in the game (by type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France’s if Vichy was installed).
4.1.3: When a unit is destroyed or old enough, you can remove it from your force pools (see 13.6.9).
Q13.7-16 13.7.5
17.4
Can the CW return (Reversion) a Vichy territory (or minor home country) to the Free French?
Yes.
Date 07/03/2008
13.7.5: You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939
during any liberation step.
17.4: If an Allied major power liberates other territory controlled by France in 1939, it may return it to Free
French control in any liberation step.
07/03/2008

Q13.7-17 13.7.5
Q1: Prior to liberation of France is there any penalty for not reverting vichy controlled territory to Free France?
Q1: There is no penalty until Paris is liberated.
Q2: After liberation, what are the consequences if the CW does not?
Q2: If Free France's allies do not hand back the 1939 French territory they control at that point, they can no longer cooperate with France. Date 06/03/2008
Q3: Is there any penalty for not liberating France other than France now being treated as red for Partisans?
Q3: No. Date 12/05/2008
13.7.5: If they could return territory but don’t, they can never co-operate with the liberated major power.
12/05/2008

Q13.7-18 13.7.5 Since Vichy France minors are aligned, they are conquered, correct (see 13.7.1 4th paragraph)?
So how can you liberate them? If you can't liberate them, how can you return them to Free France?
They are not conquered, they are aligned to Vichy and can be conquered from her.
Their hexes can all be reverted to Free France which is the successor to 1939 France. Date 28/12/2007
13.7.1: You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see
13.7.5).
13.7.5: Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that
conquered it.
28/12/2007

Q13.7-19 13.7.5 18.1
If (after having been Vichyfied) France is liberated by the USA, then does the CW cease to cooperate with France?
[CW cooperated with Free France, but Free France ceases to exist at France's liberation]
"Liberated France" succeeds Free France.
Only if the CW refuses to revert liberated territory back to LF/FF would it lose the ability to cooperate. Date 18/01/2008
13.7.5: When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with.
18.1:
7. Commonwealth and Free French units co-operate.
(...)
No other units co-operate.
18/01/2008


17.1 Creation (thise questions are only about creating Vichy)
Q17.1-1, Q17.2-2, Q17.2-4, Q17.2-5, and Q17.2-6


17.4 Running Vichy France
Q17.4-1 deals with activity limits
Q17.4-2 and Q17.4-4 deal with Collapsing Vichy

Q17.4-3 17.4, 9., 11.16.5
After a combat result of an R, S or B may the Allied player retreat axis units into Vichy territory and cause the collapse of Vichy?
No. Date 29/12/2007
11.16.5: You can’t retreat a unit into a hex it couldn’t move into.
9.: You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
(…)
ï a neutral major power on your side; or 17.4: If an Axis unit enters any hex in Metropolitan Vichy France before an Allied unit does, Vichy France collapses.
29/12/2007


17.5 Combat with Vichy
Option 63
What about Intel points, veto points, etc? Does Free France "inherit" these?
How does Free France roll for Intel? (as France?)
Free France loses all intell, half goes to whoever imposed Vichy. Free France then rolls normally. Date 29/12/2007
22.1: In the peace step that a major power’s home country (the UK only for the Commonwealth) is conquered, or a Vichy government installed, that major power loses all accumulated intelligence points and the conquering major power gains half of them.
29/12/2007


22.2 Factory destruction & construction (option 30)
Q22.2-2 22.2 Option 30
Q1 : Can Germany destroy blue French factories after Vichy, if no CW units are in France?
Q1: Only if there are other Allied units in France, no otherwise. Date 16/01/2008
Q2: Do partisans count?
Q2: Yes. Date 07/03/2008
22.2: You may also destroy a blue factory if an enemy land unit occupies a hex in the country.
07/03/2008




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/19/2014 7:55:29 PM >


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Post #: 17
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 7:09:04 PM   
brian brian

 

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Japan could also become a Neutral Major Power with no change to how the entry option rules work.

Since there are no options aimed at Vichy France, only a few could be influenced by the state of war between the USA and Vichy and be automatically selected. Most of them become a moot point once the USA is an active Major Power, as they create exceptions to rules limiting Neutral Major Powers.

I guess one could say that if the USA wanted to use options Gift of Destroyers or Repair Allied Ships without having selected them in the US Entry Phase, it would have to be at war with Vichy first. Perhaps if the other 3 Axis MP all DOW on the USA late in a turn and the turn ended, this would prevent using those two optionals in the production phase. And the Vichy war status should influence US production multiple increases in that way, or if the USA DOW Ge/It and then the turn ended before it DOW Vichy France, for example if it wanted to get in position to DOW VF in a later impulse to take advantage of surprise.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 18
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 8:26:10 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

When you say FAQ do you mean "the 2008 WiF Annual (incl Factories in Flames)" or the "WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009"?


Q2.4-1 2.4.2 particularly points out the differences between the three states of Vichy France.

Vichy France is controlled by the major power that installs it. It does not make Vichy France an Axis major power.


I have not said FAQ in this thread, but Q2.4-1 is from the latter document.

Germany can't trace supply through Italy either while Italy is neutral.

Instead of a full page of quotes that have no bearing on the subject at hand (as usual), here are the two from RAW7 that matter:

"Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France."

"Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]"


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/19/2014 11:23:22 PM >


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Post #: 19
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/19/2014 8:38:28 PM   
composer99


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We went through this whole business of the game's definition of "sides" some time ago, when the country in question was the US.

It was just as unnecessary then as it is now. Vichy France can only be installed by an Axis major power. It is controlled by its installing major power. By definition, it is on the Axis side. Period.

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Post #: 20
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/20/2014 4:36:45 AM   
Extraneous

 

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I'm sorry composer99 I didn't know this was a forum where you were not allowed to express your views.


paulderynck please try following the discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
I do not agree on Vichy not being on the Axis side. It is an Axis major power. There are references in the rules and the FAQ which support this...


paulderynck as I pointed out in My post#6 of this thread the rule reads.

quote:

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.

Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.


It says nothing about being on the Axis "side".


The Axis and Allied "sides" are defined in rule 1. Introduction.

quote:

Up to six players will manage the economies and conduct the military operations of the major nations involved in that conflict, either as a member of the Axis (Germany, Italy and Japan) or as one of the Allies (China, the Commonwealth, France, the USSR and the USA).


Rule "17.1 Creation" redefines France after VIchy France is installed.

quote:

17.1 Creation
Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified. It is run by the French player.


You do not need to DoW Vichy France to have DoWed all the Axis major powers.


brian brian the US entry options are not the point it is what Vichy France is allowed to do if active vs. being neutral.



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Post #: 21
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/20/2014 5:13:17 AM   
brian brian

 

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Trick or Treat!

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Post #: 22
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/20/2014 8:22:12 PM   
Centuur


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Mr. Extranous...

I do not agree at all. However, if you want to make sure, why don't you ask ADG? Want to bet on this? Let's say € 100,--. Of course I bet on the fact that Vichy France is on the Axis side.

Are you on?




< Message edited by Centuur -- 10/20/2014 9:22:57 PM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/21/2014 2:42:48 AM   
paulderynck


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It is irrefutable that Vichy is an Axis major power. The wording "When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option" is irrefutable.

That only leaves this as an objection:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

As a Neutral major power Vichy France cannot initiate a naval combat because they are not at war.

quote:

11.5.2 Initiating a combat

To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft



But US Entry Option 32 says: "may be attacked by Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA"

And US Entry Option 50 says: "be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units".

These are what are known as exceptions. If it weren't an exception, it would not need to be in the rules. If Axis major powers being at war with the US were a required condition, then there would be no need to state specifically that Axis major powers can attack US Naval Units. Consequently these passages in the rules address the case where an Axis major power (FREX Vichy) is not at war with the US and possibly not at war with anyone on the Allied side. In that latter case, they would be what is known colloquially as "neutral".

What part of "even if they are not at war with the USA" and "any Axis naval and aircraft units" do you fail to understand?


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/21/2014 4:24:42 AM   
Courtenay


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I repeat my question:

Does anyone know what MWiF does when the US is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan, but Vichy France exists and is neutral?

Not "What should MWiF do?", but "What does MWiF do?"

People are debating the first question, and have opinions on it. The second has a definite answer (At least, I sure hope it does ), and I am curious as to what it is. Does anyone know? I could test it, but do not want to spend the time to do so if someone already knows the answer.

The two questions may or may not have the same answer, but, even if we can decide on the answer to the first question, we need to know what MWiF does before we can decide if it is right.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/21/2014 5:17:39 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
Mr. Extranous...
I do not agree at all. However, if you want to make sure, why don't you ask ADG? Want to bet on this? Let's say € 100,--. Of course I bet on the fact that Vichy France is on the Axis side.
Are you on?


Sorry I don't bet. Especially with such a poorly worded bet.

If at any time Vichy France could be construed as on the Axis side you would win. Right?

Feel free to contact Spitfire at ADG if you like.


paulderynck Neutral major powers cannot initiate combat only Active major powers can.

quote:

9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a ‘neutral major power’ if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it’s called an ‘active major power’.


quote:

11.5.2 Initiating a combat
To initiate a combat, point to a sea area where you have a face-up (non-convoy) unit at war with another major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no face-up units in the area (except convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an aircraft.


quote:

Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.
Exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are US units escorting Allied convoys (see 13.3.2 US entry options 11, 29, 38) and all US units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (entry option 50).



quote:

11.5.11 Multiple naval combat rounds
If any units at war with each other remain in this sea area, go back to step 1 in the combat sequence (see 11.5.1 Combat sequence) and run through the sequence again. This continues until one side has no units at war with any units on the other side in this sea area, or until the combat search rolls don’t produce another combat round.




Yes Option 32 and 50 are exceptions but they are exceptions to ACTIVE major powers not at war with the USA.

quote:

11. US east coast escorts - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of the US East Coast sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting.
29. North Atlantic escorts - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of the North Atlantic sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting. You can’t choose this entry option unless you have already chosen entry option 11.

38. Arm merchantmen - Once you choose this entry option, up to 5 US CVs or SCS (you choose which and there is no limit after the US is at war with Germany or Italy) in the 0 section of any sea area, can take part in any combat round in which Allied convoys are included, even though you remain neutral. There is no US entry effect for fighting. You can’t choose this entry option unless you have already chosen entry option 29.

50. Unrestricted naval warfare - US naval and aircraft units at sea can freely attack, and be attacked by, any Axis naval and aircraft units. You still can’t port attack, shore bombard, ground strike, strategically bombard, carpet bomb, or fl y ground support. You can escort Allied convoys in any sea area with any number of SCS or CVs.
You can now move any number of ships together as 1 naval move, instead of counting each ship as a naval move. You can only choose this entry option if you have already chosen entry option 38.



Note the example doesn't include Option 32.

quote:

32. US refutes Naval War zones - The USA may use its own convoy points to ship any resources and/or builds points that the USA is lend-leasing to any allied major power. These convoy points may be attacked by Axis units even if they are not at war with the USA.



A Neutral major power cannot perform "Search and Seizure" because it must return to base before the
13.6 Production step.

quote:

13.4 Return to base
A unit must return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a neutral major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.




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(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 26
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/21/2014 5:41:06 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I repeat my question:

Does anyone know what MWiF does when the US is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan, but Vichy France exists and is neutral?

Not "What should MWiF do?", but "What does MWiF do?"

People are debating the first question, and have opinions on it. The second has a definite answer (At least, I sure hope it does ), and I am curious as to what it is. Does anyone know? I could test it, but do not want to spend the time to do so if someone already knows the answer.

The two questions may or may not have the same answer, but, even if we can decide on the answer to the first question, we need to know what MWiF does before we can decide if it is right.


I do not know if things are OK, so if you can test this, be my guest...

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/22/2014 1:54:54 AM   
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< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/22/2014 3:49:59 AM >


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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/22/2014 7:37:05 AM   
Courtenay


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OK, I tested what happens when the US is at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but not Vichy France. MWiF selects all US entry options except for the US getting Northern Ireland. In other words, MWiF is ignoring Vichy France for the purposes of figuring out if the US is at war with all Axis powers.

I have not tested what limits there are on Vichy France's units. At some point, I might do so, but not immediately.

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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/22/2014 8:22:10 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Having never seen this kind of situation come up in a game I can't say I find it especially troubling.

That said, I agree the text of the options should be cleaned up such that the Axis units in question are (a) at war with the recipients of the resources/build points being lent by the US (in the case of option 32), or (b) active major powers (in the case of option 50). Such clarifications would eliminate neutral Vichy French shenanigans pertaining to the US while still allowing the US the ability to fulfill the intent of those options (that is, flip the figurative bird at Germany & Japan).



quote:

7. There is no way to place the Vichy ships out of supply. No matter where they are based in the world.
8. They can freely pass the Suez and Gibraltar.


Both of those considerations apply to any single neutral Axis naval unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is here. I mean, nothing's stopping the Germans from, say, calling a combined impulse in the very first impulse of the game and, provided they have a ship with the range, sailing it through the Pillars of Hercules.

(Also, the point about supply depends upon the optional rules in play, but as a general matter, if you're not at war with country X, why would your forces cut off country X's overseas supply lines?)



quote:

Is this what WiF has become.




RAW7 has been out since 2004. In 10 years, if this wasn't a big enough deal for ADG to revise the rules (since I personally would), it's either because it happens so vanishingly rarely as to not be worth the trouble (for ADG), or ADG's design intent for the game allows for more ahistorical action than you, personally, are comfortable with. (*)

(*) Never mind the game's basic premise that the Axis have a shot at military victory, which is at least as ahistorical (if not obvious to contemporaries of the time) as Vichy-US shenanigans, and certainly more significant.


There have been official variants like those with the Factories in Flames annual, which many people consider make WIF a completely different game. In many aspects I would agree. Kind of a spin-off.

And there have been different set of rules, under the name 8.XX for several years now, however, the original ones were terribly bad rules, a huge step back, so they have gone through a process of testing and refining, as well as a new mail group of very advanced players (gurus) who advise Harry and debate with him and others... these versions have been released as tests for those going to (some or all) WIFCONs in the world, and encouraged to test them in their groups but that's the maximum diffusion allowed, maybe that's why some don't know them.

As many may know, there is an almost final version and the last improvements are soon to come so Harry is thinking of releasing the new improved version for 2015 along with (IIRW) a new game pack with new maps too...

So there have been new versions although most of them are still restricted, and the development work has been continuous.

BTW, what does "OP" (Nation) stand here for? "Opposite"?

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 10/22/2014 10:54:49 AM >

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