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RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now!

 
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RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/29/2014 5:16:34 PM   
Feltan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar


I figured this was intentional, so I've been proceeding as fragged despite the ambiguity. The ambiguity actually has been reproducing the uncertain posturing which occurs during US and Chinese operations in close proximity, so I think you've achieved your goal there!

Some highlights from my playthrough...

The French Eurocopters had their own "fog of war" when I re-classified the merchant ships they were about to attack as neutral. It delayed the opening of hostilities, but the inevitable missile exchange still happened (just when I thought I had found a loophole!):


I've been carefully sorting targets and manually reclassifying anything Chinese (and the city markers) as neutral. It has allowed me to (so far) give the Chinese forces a wide berth and minimize the likelihood of overt aggression. I can see that the scenario is pushing for a conflict, but I'm still holding out for the favored negotiating position per the TO. Notice the recently detected Chinese J-11s north of Port Harcourt are classified as hostile by default:



Korvar,

That is quite an innovative approach (reclassifying contacts as Neutral). I confess it never occurred to me during testing to try that. Which proves longstanding comments on this forum that players will take your scenario in directions not contemplated. I'm just gratified that the scenario hung together and played out while you took that approach.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Korvar)
Post #: 31
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2014 5:57:10 PM   
tommo8993

 

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But it says avoid contact with china yet i always end up attacking them.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 32
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2014 6:47:18 PM   
Feltan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommo8993

But it says avoid contact with china yet i always end up attacking them.


tommo8993,

Read the orders again. You are to avoid contact/conflict with China, but the orders explain what you need to do if that fails. As it happens, the likelihood of you being able to avoid conflict with China are small.

This is a war game. The scenario is set up for a conflict not diplomacy.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to tommo8993)
Post #: 33
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2014 7:06:02 PM   
Luidzi

 

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Your orders also state that you can defend yourself and, if avoiding hostilities is not possible, allow you to bomb the hell out of them. At the beginning US/UK are neutral to China, which allows you to scout around with aircrafts and make visual ID of everything on the ground.

From purely theoretical standpoint, you can attack CWA without aggressing China if you avoid identification and keep your units out of range of Chinese weapons if possible. China will then only see individual bogeys (and bandits, when they attack). Since China will go hostile when they or CWA identify your unit and it makes an offensive action (this includes evading of CWA weapons), keeping them out of conflict is very hard, if not impossible.

Destruction of Chinese units is also worth more points than taking out CWA, so it may be not possible to achieve a good victory conditions when avoiding China.

(in reply to tommo8993)
Post #: 34
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2014 10:55:50 PM   
Vici Supreme

 

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Hey there

One thing that could be added is the Diori Hamani International Airport in Naimey, Niger which is used as a joint US-French base. The americans use the base for Reaper and Liberty King surveillance flights while French forces used the airport as a staging area during the Mali offensive.

In my opinion it totally fits the set-up of your scenario!

https://publicintelligence.net/us-drones-in-africa/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/drone-base-in-niger-gives-us-a-strategic-foothold-in-west-africa/2013/03/21/700ee8d0-9170-11e2-9c4d-798c073d7ec8_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-set-to-open-second-drone-base-in-niger-as-it-expands-operations-in-africa/2014/08/31/365489c4-2eb8-11e4-994d-202962a9150c_story.html

Regards

Supreme

< Message edited by Supreme 2.0 -- 9/30/2014 11:57:20 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Luidzi)
Post #: 35
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 10/1/2014 2:21:57 AM   
Feltan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Supreme 2.0

Hey there

One thing that could be added is the Diori Hamani International Airport in Naimey, Niger which is used as a joint US-French base. The americans use the base for Reaper and Liberty King surveillance flights while French forces used the airport as a staging area during the Mali offensive.

In my opinion it totally fits the set-up of your scenario!

https://publicintelligence.net/us-drones-in-africa/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/drone-base-in-niger-gives-us-a-strategic-foothold-in-west-africa/2013/03/21/700ee8d0-9170-11e2-9c4d-798c073d7ec8_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-set-to-open-second-drone-base-in-niger-as-it-expands-operations-in-africa/2014/08/31/365489c4-2eb8-11e4-994d-202962a9150c_story.html

Regards

Supreme


Supreme,

Thank you for those resources. I have book marked the Public Intelligence website having spent a good couple of hours trolling through articles.

At this point, I don't think I am going to change the scenario to add the Niger site you suggest. I could have. However, I think the Global Hawks that I have in the scenario would not be deployed to an area like that. Predators perhaps, but that would be more frosting on the cake for the scenario and I don't think it is currently needed.

You made me smarter tonight. Thanks.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Vici Supreme)
Post #: 36
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 10/1/2014 5:50:47 AM   
Korvar


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Regarding the "inevitability" of conflict with the Chinese -

From my experience with the scenario, it appears to be possible to maintain Chinese neutrality, although it is not an easy task. That said, there is a lot of time left in my playthrough, so anything can happen.

A lot of micromanaging is required to mitigate the risk of open conflict, especially with regards to navigating aircraft around the Chinese SAM kill zones and the manual re-classification of Chinese forces (they get auto classified as hostile as contacts are lost and picked up again). Using Ctrl+A to disable AI auto fire is also helpful.

Even then, I got a little too close with one of my B-52s, and a Chinese SA-20 site took a shot at it where a die roll to hit occurred - luckily I was at the very edge of its range and it missed, but it's a delicate balance to say the least. The Chinese have cooperated in one significant way - none of their combat aircraft have ventured outside of the Port Harcourt area. Only their Y-8CA Cubs have roamed outside of that area, and they have only been a nuisance (jamming).

It has also created an interesting tactical development that the Chiense have effectively conducted area denial in the entire area between Warri and Port Harcourt. I've been forced to use only standoff weapons, and even then the Chinese take shots at my missiles.

I agree with Luidzi that my strategy is not optimal from a scenario scoring point of view, as I'm missing out on a lot of points; however, as Feltan mentioned, the scenario can be played in a myriad of ways - more than the author can possibly anticipate. I think one of CMANO's strong suits is its ability to simultaneously be mostly an open sandbox environment while at the same time providing the framework to be very structured, and it is up to the player to find the right balance for his play-style. It is also a testament to Feltan's work on this scenario that it is still very playable despite a significant detour from the intended course of events.


Here are some snippets from the latest losses report, as well as a screenshot of the overall situation (note: all Chinese losses were a result of their exchange with the French task force, and my Seahawk loss was a result of a landing glitch where it refused to land until it ran out of fuel):

SIDE: CWA
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
6x 35mm/90 Twin Type 90 [China Type 902 FC]
1x A/C Hangar (2x Very Large Aircraft)
1x A/C Tarmac Space (2x Very Large Aircraft)
1x Alpha Jet C
3x Ammo Shelter
3x ATR-42MP Surveyor
2x AvGas (150k Liter Tank)
4x AvGas (400k Liter Tank)
2x AvGas (40k Liter Tank)
7x Building (Barracks)
1x Building (Communication Hub)
6x Building (Medium)
1x Building (School)
1x Building (Very Large Leadership Compound)
1x F 89 Aradu [Meko 360]
2x F 90 Thunder [Hamilton Class]
15x F-7N Airguard
10x HQ-2a Guideline Single Rail
5x J-7II Fishbed
2x L-39ZA/ART Albatros
2x Platform [Class B, 70000t]
3x Radar (China HQ-64 Search)
12x Roland 2
1x Runway Access Point (Large Aircraft)
2x Structure (Oil Refinery)
34x Structure (Oil Well)
3x Vehicle (China Type 902)
4x Vehicle (Chop Rest)
4x Vehicle (Gin Sling)



SIDE: China
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Commercial Tanker - Large Range 2 [150,000t DWT]
1x Ka-28 Helix A
1x Type 056 Jiangdao [582 Bengbu]



SIDE: United States
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x MH-60R Seahawk




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Korvar -- 10/1/2014 6:54:41 AM >

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 37
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 10/1/2014 11:31:52 PM   
Dannyp19

 

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Another excellent scen. Feltan! I got a minor victory, those sneaky SA20's took out a few UAV's, and one ship was sunk during SAR transit by a sub.

Hope to see more of your work.

(in reply to Korvar)
Post #: 38
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 10/19/2014 1:53:57 PM   
Luidzi

 

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I contemplated a few ways of "how to prevent French TF from blowing up to kingdom come".

Question: Can the French TF be saved by timely intervention of the US/UK?

I launched all F-35's with AA loadout and went on afterburner until slightly southeast of French TF, with the intention of intercepting a missile salvo from Chinese ships. Planes then loitered for a while until shooting started. After launching all AMRAAMs I continued engagement with guns, hoping of more kills. Unfortunately GAU-25 is not especially suited for dealing with cruise missiles, so the actual number of hits was low.
In the end it didn't matter at all. While my planes were returning completely without ammo, Chinese salvoes that followed the first obliterated most of French TF. The only surviving ship was Aconit. Epic fail.


First try unsuccessful, I tried a different approach.

Question: Can the French TF be saved by manual engagement under the player command?

I switched to French. First change I made was tightening the formation. This allowed short-range missiles to provide area defense to other ships. After helicopter attack I switched to hold fire with the intent to manually control fire, but too late - first salvo of submarine-launched missiles was already blown out of the sky. I send a Lynx to approximate starting location of missiles, but then I had a bigger problems when my attack helicopters detected a titanic salvo. I attacked with Chevalier Paul - one missile at each target. Unfortunately the situation was like from Red Storm Rising - more vampires than defensive missiles. Chevalier Paul soon ran out of Asters and only guns and ECM remained.
After first engagements with Crotales I switched off hold fire and just let the ships control their own fire. First salvo from both directions neutralised, I reversed course of the formation, to unmask their port Mistral launchers, which destroyed another wave. Meanwhile Lynx detected a submarine with MAD sensor and sunk it.
Chinese were launching almost continuous stream of missiles and after a while I reversed course again. Unfortunately it takes a minute to reload Crotale and two Mistral - the few missiles that were ready were quickly used up and only cannons remained.
Chaotic maneouvring of whole formation brought Meuse closest to Chinese ships and therefore a primary target. About 6 missiles hit and turned her into a wreck. Another 5 missiles hit her burning wreck and she was completely gone. Last 5 missiles targeted Chevalier Paul. Second one hit and disabled both cannons, luckily everything else was spoofed by RECM.
And then - it was over. One ship destroyed, another seriously damaged. I didn't continue the scenario to see how much the French survival adds to the war effort (scoring).

(in reply to Dannyp19)
Post #: 39
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 10/19/2014 4:14:06 PM   
Feltan


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Luidzi,

Very innovative and interesting.  I didn't experiment with them as much as you have, and your results are surprisingly good.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Luidzi)
Post #: 40
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 8/13/2015 8:19:48 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Is this ready for release?

_____________________________


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Post #: 41
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/18/2016 5:22:43 PM   
AaronWallace

 

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The cruelest joke in the community scenario pack is that this and goodnight irene are not in it.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 42
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/18/2016 5:52:39 PM   
Randomizer


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Feltan seems to have dropped off the CMANO map. As far as I can determine neither Under African Skies or Goodnight Irene were ever submitted or uploaded to the Community Scenarios thread so their omission is not unreasonable. Hope that he's OK regardless.

-C

(in reply to AaronWallace)
Post #: 43
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/21/2016 4:53:42 AM   
magi

 

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im going to check it out....

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 44
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/21/2016 7:15:37 PM   
Luidzi

 

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I've ran into problems when updating this scenario to the latest varsion of DB3K. The scenario is built under DB3K v417, update to latest DB throws an error - KC-135 has different loadout. Another one is more serious - magazines of some units contain several weapons in numbers x/99999, these will not be exported into delta template and lost during update unless manually fixed.

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 45
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/23/2016 9:25:48 AM   
magi

 

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Darn....

(in reply to Luidzi)
Post #: 46
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/24/2016 12:09:52 AM   
Luidzi

 

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After update it looks fine - I've replayed the scenario and events, scoring and everything else should be working as intended. Gameplay is a bit slower (no 30m turnarounds for A/A loadouts), but manageable.

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 47
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2016 12:16:43 AM   
Dannyp19

 

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I really enjoyed this and Goodnight Irene.

I just spent a few hours updating this to latest DB and fixed the poly. and magazine errors on both of these scenarios.
They both play really good in V 1.11 SR5.

Would there be any objections to posting my revisions to the CSP? I agree that its a shame these 2 are not in there.




(in reply to Luidzi)
Post #: 48
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2016 12:54:56 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Haven't heard from Feltan in a couple years. Hope he's OK.

I think it would be good to put the scenarios in the community pack. Otherwise they are just dust on the cutting room floor - and they are way too good for that.

Don't forget about Havana Daydreaming as well - his best I think.

That's my thought anyway.

B

(in reply to Dannyp19)
Post #: 49
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2016 1:01:00 AM   
Ferret69

 

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Personally I think that the scenarios should be put in the CSP because they are, as Gunner said, too good to be gaining dust.
With regards the Under African Skies in particular I wonder if anyone would want to make the next couple of scenarios that are hinted at in the side briefing.

Ferret

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 50
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2016 4:48:37 AM   
Dannyp19

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Haven't heard from Feltan in a couple years. Hope he's OK.

I think it would be good to put the scenarios in the community pack. Otherwise they are just dust on the cutting room floor - and they are way too good for that.

Don't forget about Havana Daydreaming as well - his best I think.

That's my thought anyway.

B



Havana Daydreaming is already in. Agree, its the best one.


(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 51
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 9/30/2016 11:02:57 AM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

Havana Daydreaming is already in


Check! Thanks

Follow on scenarios are a good idea, I'm way too committed but do them could help with some research if needed.

B

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Post #: 52
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 1/22/2017 8:04:12 PM   
Rangoon

 

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I heard someone else updated this to 1.6. Is that true?

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 53
RE: Under African Skies (2017) v1.5 -- Testing Now! - 1/22/2017 11:07:37 PM   
lamboman43

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rangoon

I heard someone else updated this to 1.6. Is that true?

I believe the one in the current Community Pack is updated.

(in reply to Rangoon)
Post #: 54
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