Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

"Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions of Japan, 1945-1946: Planning and Policy Implications"

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions of Japan, 1945-1946: Planning and Policy Implications" Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
"Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions of Ja... - 9/16/2014 10:19:53 PM   
rook749


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline
This might interest some people.

http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/1096.asp

_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/16/2014 11:11:42 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
I have read the DoD are still issuing purple hearts minted for the invasion of Japan that weren't used.

My father always thought dropping the nukes on Japan was a good idea. He thought it probably saved his life. He felt his number would be coming up soon if the war went on much longer.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to rook749)
Post #: 2
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/16/2014 11:34:46 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 2759
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
I read his book "Hell to Pay" and highly recommend it to the community. It was a a sober analysis of what lay ahead and likely Allied tactics. Really good book

_____________________________

Art comforts the disturbed and disturbs the comfortable.

(in reply to rook749)
Post #: 3
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 1:00:05 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3119
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
This may seem very callous especially if you are Japanese, but by dropping the nukes in '45 on Japan we entered the "nuclear age" in its infancy and on the "cheap" (relatively speaking)! If we had waited until the Korean war or later to employ the first actual use of these weapons, by that time they were so much more destructive that their initial use could have been catastrophic to say the least (without us really understanding just what would result from that use). If we hadn't the experience as a result of their use in the two Japanese cities we might have gone to war in something like the Cuban missile crisis period where we had MEGA-ton weapons.... and LOTS of them. Again please understand, I don't mean to be derogatory to Japan and the suffering it caused, but the truth is that by doing so, we helped avoid what Bill alludes to, the horrendous casualties of the invasion, but also a potential first use of those weapons when they could have been a planet ending event.

_____________________________


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 4
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 2:56:30 AM   
btd64


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

This may seem very callous especially if you are Japanese, but by dropping the nukes in '45 on Japan we entered the "nuclear age" in its infancy and on the "cheap" (relatively speaking)! If we had waited until the Korean war or later to employ the first actual use of these weapons, by that time they were so much more destructive that their initial use could have been catastrophic to say the least (without us really understanding just what would result from that use). If we hadn't the experience as a result of their use in the two Japanese cities we might have gone to war in something like the Cuban missile crisis period where we had MEGA-ton weapons.... and LOTS of them. Again please understand, I don't mean to be derogatory to Japan and the suffering it caused, but the truth is that by doing so, we helped avoid what Bill alludes to, the horrendous casualties of the invasion, but also a potential first use of those weapons when they could have been a planet ending event.


Your right....GP


_____________________________

Intel i7 3.4GHz,8GB Ram,1920x1080 rez

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 5
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 3:45:48 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 13846
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
The A-bombs seem like a natural extension of the fire bombing we were already doing. The difference between A-bombs and H-bombs seems far greater than that.

edit: sorry for saying "we". It is appropriate for me but I think we're trying to have an objective discussion here. I have to be able to see other sides or there is no point to discuss.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 9/17/2014 4:49:26 AM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 6
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 11:22:32 AM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline
I have always thought that the use of A-Bombs in Japan, in addition to saving at least a million Japanese lives, saved tens of millions in Europe. Uncle Joe might have made a try at Western Europe if not for the nuclear concern.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 7
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 11:40:35 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
Collectively we also learned just how horrendous the aftermath of these weapons are. The long term radiation effects taught the world to think twice about using these weapons and thankfully we have avoided their use up to this point.

At the time they were used, radiation was fairly well known by scientists in nuclear physics and a few engineers, but it was an alien concept to those who weren't specialists in that area. It was sort of like the concept of germs to someone on the street in the 1880s. To most people in the chain of command who knew about the bombs before they were used, these were just really big bombs like super block busters. Any talk of the long term effects was just voodoo.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 8
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 11:56:13 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2699
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline
Heck, just the fuel cores could cause problems.

Demon Core

Ed-

_____________________________


(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 9
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 2:15:04 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline
Invasion and the A-Bombs were not the only ways to end the war. A rational decision would have been a negotiated peace.

If the allies had told Japan that we would let them buy oil and resources on the world market, that the US would protect them against the USSR, and that the allies would spend enormous sums helping them rebuild we could have had peace without either.



< Message edited by Amoral -- 9/17/2014 3:16:45 PM >

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 10
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 3:22:10 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24191
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

This may seem very callous especially if you are Japanese, but by dropping the nukes in '45 on Japan we entered the "nuclear age" in its infancy and on the "cheap" (relatively speaking)! If we had waited until the Korean war or later to employ the first actual use of these weapons, by that time they were so much more destructive that their initial use could have been catastrophic to say the least (without us really understanding just what would result from that use). If we hadn't the experience as a result of their use in the two Japanese cities we might have gone to war in something like the Cuban missile crisis period where we had MEGA-ton weapons.... and LOTS of them. Again please understand, I don't mean to be derogatory to Japan and the suffering it caused, but the truth is that by doing so, we helped avoid what Bill alludes to, the horrendous casualties of the invasion, but also a potential first use of those weapons when they could have been a planet ending event.


Good points.

_____________________________


(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 11
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 3:42:51 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3348
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
Even Japan's surrender, after the 2nd bomb/ USSR entry to the war, was a 50-50 chance; Hirohito was hesitant, and the Kyûjô Incident; the Aug 14–15 coup attempt, could had ended in success.

Question: is there any good book (in English) that goes into detail regarding the last days?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 12
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 3:47:35 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4928
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Invasion and the A-Bombs were not the only ways to end the war. A rational decision would have been a negotiated peace.

If the allies had told Japan that we would let them buy oil and resources on the world market, that the US would protect them against the USSR, and that the allies would spend enormous sums helping them rebuild we could have had peace without either.




I believe you & I will have to disagree on this. This line of thinking, from a historical point, is one of the largest reasons for so much unrest today. I don't want to make this political in any way, and I deleted a LOT of what I had typed. But this is just wrong on a lot of levels IMHO. I would be happy to discuss politely in a private forum

(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 13
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 3:52:00 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3348
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
The military leaders of Japan in 1945 were not the kind of partner you will like to negotiate anything other than surrender. It is crystal clear now, as we can read their reactions to initiatives like the Postdam declaration.. which they took it as a sign of weakness

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 14
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 4:30:27 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1028
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline
My take on Japan's situation in August of 1945 was that all that was required was continued conventional bombing and naval blockade to cause complete collapse of civil society and widespread famine. Invasion was frankly unnecessary as was dropping the "A" bomb. The horrible irony is that dropping the bomb probably saved more Japanese lives than such a blockade would have destroyed.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 15
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 5:12:34 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7058
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Invasion and the A-Bombs were not the only ways to end the war. A rational decision would have been a negotiated peace.

If the allies had told Japan that we would let them buy oil and resources on the world market, that the US would protect them against the USSR, and that the allies would spend enormous sums helping them rebuild we could have had peace without either.




I believe you & I will have to disagree on this. This line of thinking, from a historical point, is one of the largest reasons for so much unrest today. I don't want to make this political in any way, and I deleted a LOT of what I had typed. But this is just wrong on a lot of levels IMHO. I would be happy to discuss politely in a private forum


+1

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 16
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 6:14:55 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3348
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

My take on Japan's situation in August of 1945 was that all that was required was continued conventional bombing and naval blockade to cause complete collapse of civil society and widespread famine. Invasion was frankly unnecessary as was dropping the "A" bomb. The horrible irony is that dropping the bomb probably saved more Japanese lives than such a blockade would have destroyed.


Only if this goes for a long time.. but then you have to realize that the conventional fire bombings + starvation would cause more casualties than the A-bomb


(in reply to pontiouspilot)
Post #: 17
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 7:37:50 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2828
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

My take on Japan's situation in August of 1945 was that all that was required was continued conventional bombing and naval blockade to cause complete collapse of civil society and widespread famine. Invasion was frankly unnecessary as was dropping the "A" bomb. The horrible irony is that dropping the bomb probably saved more Japanese lives than such a blockade would have destroyed.


Only if this goes for a long time.. but then you have to realize that the conventional fire bombings + starvation would cause more casualties than the A-bomb










Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 18
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 7:53:49 PM   
btd64


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

the US would protect them against the USSR



Patton would of loved that.....GP


_____________________________

Intel i7 3.4GHz,8GB Ram,1920x1080 rez

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 19
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 8:53:33 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40498
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Invasion and the A-Bombs were not the only ways to end the war. A rational decision would have been a negotiated peace.

If the allies had told Japan that we would let them buy oil and resources on the world market, that the US would protect them against the USSR, and that the allies would spend enormous sums helping them rebuild we could have had peace without either.




I believe you & I will have to disagree on this. This line of thinking, from a historical point, is one of the largest reasons for so much unrest today. I don't want to make this political in any way, and I deleted a LOT of what I had typed. But this is just wrong on a lot of levels IMHO. I would be happy to discuss politely in a private forum


+1
warspite1

+2


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 20
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 10:41:31 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Invasion and the A-Bombs were not the only ways to end the war. A rational decision would have been a negotiated peace.

If the allies had told Japan that we would let them buy oil and resources on the world market, that the US would protect them against the USSR, and that the allies would spend enormous sums helping them rebuild we could have had peace without either.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
I believe you & I will have to disagree on this. This line of thinking, from a historical point, is one of the largest reasons for so much unrest today. I don't want to make this political in any way, and I deleted a LOT of what I had typed. But this is just wrong on a lot of levels IMHO. I would be happy to discuss politely in a private forum


Thanks for not going overly political. I just deleted several answers too...

Let's just say a negotiated peace was a pretty low probability option from both sides at that point.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 21
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/17/2014 10:59:31 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Even Japan's surrender, after the 2nd bomb/ USSR entry to the war, was a 50-50 chance; Hirohito was hesitant, and the Kyûjô Incident; the Aug 14–15 coup attempt, could had ended in success.

Question: is there any good book (in English) that goes into detail regarding the last days?


I don't know if the book is any good, but Richard Frank has written a book entitled Downfall about the end of the war with Japan. I haven't read that book, but I read his book about the Guadalcanal campaign and it was exhaustive in its detail. Amazon has it used from $2.28 (plus shipping).

I saw something in the History Book Club about a book that covered the last days within Japan, but I can't even begin to remember the title. I just remember reading the description of the book.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 22
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/18/2014 12:01:49 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3348
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
There is also this movie I highly recommend

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113309/

it's called Pearl Harb...cough cough... noooo

just kidding, it is called Hiroshima, a TV movie from the 90s about the last days of Japan (showing both sides). I still prefer books

thanks

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 23
RE: "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions o... - 9/18/2014 2:40:02 AM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1028
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline
Jorge...yes I think that was my point. I'm not sure that the blockade would have to go on more than a year. They were in very rough shape.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 24
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> "Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions of Japan, 1945-1946: Planning and Policy Implications" Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.139