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BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy please) - 9/8/2014 2:56:02 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Hi,

I don't really intend this to be a proper AAR. But rather as a safe place where I can ask the questions I need and to get help and advice. I haven't actually played a whole game through so do have very many questions but am holding my own in this match up.

Its Scenario 2, DDB, C and I am Allies. Its September 1942 now.

Cliff notes.
Lexington was sunk near Cairns bad luck mostly, no CAP due to weather.
Yorktown took THREE torpedoes about 4 hexes from Brisbane, made it to Marlborough which was built up and is currently in Sydney drydock, about 3 months repair time now.
Prince of Wales, Repulse and Pennsylvania are also sunk.

Ryujo was sunk during a surface action in the opening turns of the game, CA Houston was the hero.
I *think* 3 Japanese CAs are sunk, really not sure and the names don't quite seem to be right.

Extent of Japanese advance.
Noumea, Darwin, Luganville, Port Moresby, Wake Island.


Post #: 1
RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:05:11 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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The China problem.

He has advance deep into China now and has just isolated Chungking. It has level 6 forts with about 5000AV and is somewhat overstacked. He recently took Nekiang(?) a few hexes west of Chungking. At Chengtu about to finish level 4 forts and has about 4000+AV.

The units in Chungking have supply but there is marginal stored supply in Chungking now and with the fuel lines cut off it will only get worse.

I have some units covering the mountain approaches to Lungchow.

Now here is the problem.
His air assaults have been unrelenting and have caused massive casualties, mostly in slowing down LCU so they got surrounded and destroyed. But to meet this threat I rebased a large number of fighter aircraft to China. They have done well causing casualties and fighting defending battles so greater pilot preservation?

They are currently based at Chengtu and my opponent at the moment has been unable to launch large sweeps (range) on Chengtu so its relatively safe. But with Neikang in his possession that will change, level 1 airfield only thank goodness! I have about 150 fighters there, Chinese, USA and British. Three USA squadrons and about 9 RAF squadrons. Level 6 airfield with just shy of 20 000 supply.

But all my hurricanes are trapped in Chengtu! They cannot get droptanks due to the supply situation to get to Ledo! I think the supply is going into the forts at the moment, its at 96% completion so going to finish that, but I expect Chengtu to fall at some point and need to be able to get these squadrons out. All LCU there are set to "no replacements" and using just about every transport and level bomber to fly supply into Chengtu. He appears to be investing Chungking first so probably have a fair amount of time.

How do I do this? Help?


(in reply to BattleMoose)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:07:48 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Marcus Island,

Completely different issue. I have 2 regiments loaded on APs heading to Marcus island to ampib invade. Never done anything like this before. I don't think he has any significant naval assests in the area. KB is down at Rabual and so are his battleships and Cruisers. He might have some light cruisers in the general area but possibly not at Marcus.

I have 1 CA about 7 DDs a DMS and one CVE, with fighters and dive bombers. I intend to bombard with CA, 4 DD and DMS and try and identify what he has there and attack. Thoughts? Advice?

(in reply to BattleMoose)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:11:07 AM   
topeverest


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YOu can't defend Marcus anymore than he can, even if you can take it.

Do you have Wake, Bikini, and Eniwitok as a bypass of Marshalls?

I would never venture so close to Japan with a few CVL's as air cover.

< Message edited by topeverest -- 9/8/2014 4:15:34 AM >


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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:15:03 AM   
topeverest


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IMHO, China is unbalanced, and the empire typically seems to conquer it in most new starts where they can focus Manchukuo garrison elements. I don't think you have a realistic shot at holding it, as there is no material support.

You have to gauge the risk of total loss versus saving the troops and retreating towards Kumming.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

The China problem.

He has advance deep into China now and has just isolated Chungking. It has level 6 forts with about 5000AV and is somewhat overstacked. He recently took Nekiang(?) a few hexes west of Chungking. At Chengtu about to finish level 4 forts and has about 4000+AV.

The units in Chungking have supply but there is marginal stored supply in Chungking now and with the fuel lines cut off it will only get worse.

I have some units covering the mountain approaches to Lungchow.

Now here is the problem.
His air assaults have been unrelenting and have caused massive casualties, mostly in slowing down LCU so they got surrounded and destroyed. But to meet this threat I rebased a large number of fighter aircraft to China. They have done well causing casualties and fighting defending battles so greater pilot preservation?

They are currently based at Chengtu and my opponent at the moment has been unable to launch large sweeps (range) on Chengtu so its relatively safe. But with Neikang in his possession that will change, level 1 airfield only thank goodness! I have about 150 fighters there, Chinese, USA and British. Three USA squadrons and about 9 RAF squadrons. Level 6 airfield with just shy of 20 000 supply.

But all my hurricanes are trapped in Chengtu! They cannot get droptanks due to the supply situation to get to Ledo! I think the supply is going into the forts at the moment, its at 96% completion so going to finish that, but I expect Chengtu to fall at some point and need to be able to get these squadrons out. All LCU there are set to "no replacements" and using just about every transport and level bomber to fly supply into Chengtu. He appears to be investing Chungking first so probably have a fair amount of time.

How do I do this? Help?





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Andy M

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:28:45 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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I know I am going to lose China. I have a number of LCU covering Kumming. The garrisons of Chengtu and Chungking are committed and won't be able to make it to Kumming at this point.

My principal question is things I can do to get those hurricane squadrons out of China.

(in reply to topeverest)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:44:17 AM   
BBfanboy


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+1 re: Marcus
One of the hard things to do in the first year of game time is resist the urge to "do something" with the small forces you have available. Put them into defending your essential bases and wait until you get a credible carrier force (numbers, better planes and experience) to take on invasions of his perimeter.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 9/8/2014 4:45:38 AM >


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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 6:26:08 AM   
JocMeister

 

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I second that of not landing on Marcus. If your opponent has any experience at all he will just let you land and then sit there to rot until he deals with it at his leisure. Use the troops elsewhere where they can make a difference instead.

Regarding the Hurricanes you will need to withdraw them. Planes will return to the pools and the squadrons will be back in 120 days. Lesson of the day: Never fly something into China that can´t fly back without DTs.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 6:30:47 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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My thoughts on Marcus is to take it, destroy what Japanese units are there and then withdraw. Maybe just a unit that is capable to support patrol planes. The idea is to draw some attention and Japanese assets away from Noumea.

I am hoping to build up supply in Chengtu so I can use drop tanks again. Impossible?

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 6:44:55 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

My thoughts on Marcus is to take it, destroy what Japanese units are there and then withdraw. Maybe just a unit that is capable to support patrol planes. The idea is to draw some attention and Japanese assets away from Noumea.

I am hoping to build up supply in Chengtu so I can use drop tanks again. Impossible?


Well, I think you will sourly disappointed. Unless your opponent actually shipped some units there (which I doubt) you will find it empty. Might be an AVP in port but that can be just as easily destroyed by a simple port strike.

If you really want to go ahead with the landing I suggest you recon the base before landing. If its empty, don´t land. If you do land make sure you have 100% prepp or you will be gutted in the landing. Atolls are nasty business!

Regardning Chengtu you will never be able to build up 20k supply. Not a chance.

(in reply to BattleMoose)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 6:56:57 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Regardning Chengtu you will never be able to build up 20k supply. Not a chance.


I have 19200 supply there already and has been consistent. It generates a fair bit on its own and many aircraft flying supplies in.

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 7:00:41 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Thats a very impressive number considering its China. Not sure how you managed that.


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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 7:06:03 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Still haven't mastered the supply system yet, maybe a bachelors. :P I turned stockpile up there ages ago so I think its trying to maintain 20k supply there? About to finish lvl 4 forts and then will stop building forts. Turned replacements for all units off. So just need things to stop using supply. So frustrating, just fly some damn drop tanks in! Leave the condiments and contraceptives back in Ledo!

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 3:24:04 PM   
BattleMoose

 

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Over the past few turns I have slowly been able to build up supply in Chengtu, its at 20077 but am not able to use drop tanks. Cannot find any details in the manual about droptanks? Its a level 6 airfield. I have been using the stockpile option to stockpile supplies, no idea if this is having an effect. Really do need those drop tanks.

I have a few more turns of fuel in Chengtu and then my supply will probably start steadily dropping.

(in reply to BattleMoose)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 5:29:11 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Over the past few turns I have slowly been able to build up supply in Chengtu, its at 20077 but am not able to use drop tanks. Cannot find any details in the manual about droptanks? Its a level 6 airfield. I have been using the stockpile option to stockpile supplies, no idea if this is having an effect. Really do need those drop tanks.

I have a few more turns of fuel in Chengtu and then my supply will probably start steadily dropping.


I re-read the manual. I was sure I had seen the supply threshold, but you're right. It's not there.

A search of the forum archives showed a few posts from 2009, right after first ship, with this question. The best answer I found is that the threshold is not 20,000, but rather 2x the base Supplies Required number. This was never reported as verified, but all I could find.

I opened a testbed game I have, and all Hurricanes at fields where this was true do have drop tanks available. I moved a unit from Colombo to Tanjore where this was not true (but at a LV1 AF) and drop tanks grayed out and were unavailable.

You can set Chengtu's supply spinner to the minimum and see if you can get over 2x of that. That might work. If not, your best bet is to withdraw them before they're damaged by bombing or ops. You have to pay the delay price to get them back, but at least you don't lose them and the VPs.

Edit: in my testbed I can get the supply spinner at Chengtu down to 1728. You have well over 2x that now.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/8/2014 6:52:19 PM >


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The Moose

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 6:52:11 PM   
Lokasenna


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There are definitely conditions to using drop tanks...

In my experience, the base can't have a yellow "!" - there needs to be at least 2x supply at the base in order to use drop tanks. I've had ample opportunity to test this against MM in NE Australia... when the base had less than 2x supply needed (not requested per the "spinner", but needed!), my short-legged recon planes couldn't use drop tanks.

When I had 2x supply at the base, they could.

Also think you might need AF 2+... ***



Can you simply withdraw the unit from Chengtu? Click on 'withdraw unit', even if the text is red, and see what it says. If it says "but planes may be lost", don't do it or you'll lose the planes but still save the pilots. If it's white text for withdraw, then you can withdraw them for 60 days. Do this as a last resort, and you'll get them back at Aden in 2 months (I believe).


EDIT: You can use DTs at a level 1 airfield. Just confirmed in one of my games.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 9/8/2014 8:24:54 PM >

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 9:21:28 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

There are definitely conditions to using drop tanks...

In my experience, the base can't have a yellow "!" - there needs to be at least 2x supply at the base in order to use drop tanks. I've had ample opportunity to test this against MM in NE Australia... when the base had less than 2x supply needed (not requested per the "spinner", but needed!), my short-legged recon planes couldn't use drop tanks.



The line with the spinner is labeled "Supplies Required." With the spinner all the way to the right it gives the supplies needed by LCUs in the base and any other activities needing supply.

Which line are you looking at to calculate the x2?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/8/2014 10:22:04 PM >


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The Moose

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 9:33:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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So looking some more it seems like it's that line, un-spun. That line is affected by the LCUs in the base. It's the same line used by the auto-convoy system I think.

So if he's got 20,000+ in the base and is still under x2, he can march units outside until the Supply Required number declines enough for 20,000 to be x2. Right?

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The Moose

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 9:37:10 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So looking some more it seems like it's that line, un-spun. That line is affected by the LCUs in the base. It's the same line used by the auto-convoy system I think.


Yes, that's what I meant. The "base" required could be something like 1500, but if you set it to require 5000 extra, it will attempt to stockpile 19500 supplies before shipping any out. However, anything over 3000 would meet the "base" x2 requirement. If you pay attention, you'll notice that yellow !'s only appear over locations that do not come up to this "base" x2 requirement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So if he's got 20,000+ in the base and is still under x2, he can march units outside until the Supply Required number declines enough for 20,000 to be x2. Right?


I would assume so, however the LCUs will take some supply out with them, yeah?

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 9:41:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So looking some more it seems like it's that line, un-spun. That line is affected by the LCUs in the base. It's the same line used by the auto-convoy system I think.


Yes, that's what I meant. The "base" required could be something like 1500, but if you set it to require 5000 extra, it will attempt to stockpile 19500 supplies before shipping any out. However, anything over 3000 would meet the "base" x2 requirement. If you pay attention, you'll notice that yellow !'s only appear over locations that do not come up to this "base" x2 requirement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So if he's got 20,000+ in the base and is still under x2, he can march units outside until the Supply Required number declines enough for 20,000 to be x2. Right?


I would assume so, however the LCUs will take some supply out with them, yeah?


First, ME?! Pay attention?! I doan need no steenkin' yellow marks!

Second, the LCUs would take their internal, organic supply with them, and then draw while out in the field. The 'Yes' on stockpile only prevents a base from sending to another base(s). But the draw would be very low unless there was combat.

But would you strip a base of defenders to get planes out? Especially when they're undamaged and can be Withdrawn? Not sure I would.

If BM has 20,000+ and it's still less than x2, he might need to do a lot of marching out.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/8/2014 10:43:03 PM >


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The Moose

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 9:53:13 PM   
rook749


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

+1 re: Marcus
One of the hard things to do in the first year of game time is resist the urge to "do something" with the small forces you have available. Put them into defending your essential bases and wait until you get a credible carrier force (numbers, better planes and experience) to take on invasions of his perimeter.


Well I am not a fan of doing nothing in 1942 but I think Marcus Island will not good well. If its empty you will take it but if its defended I think you will find atolls take a look of work to take out. I would look for areas where you can engage him in low level attrition make him ship fuel and supplies to the front focus him on an area and then pounce elsewhere.

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/8/2014 10:57:05 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So looking some more it seems like it's that line, un-spun. That line is affected by the LCUs in the base. It's the same line used by the auto-convoy system I think.


Yes, that's what I meant. The "base" required could be something like 1500, but if you set it to require 5000 extra, it will attempt to stockpile 19500 supplies before shipping any out. However, anything over 3000 would meet the "base" x2 requirement. If you pay attention, you'll notice that yellow !'s only appear over locations that do not come up to this "base" x2 requirement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So if he's got 20,000+ in the base and is still under x2, he can march units outside until the Supply Required number declines enough for 20,000 to be x2. Right?


I would assume so, however the LCUs will take some supply out with them, yeah?


First, ME?! Pay attention?! I doan need no steenkin' yellow marks!

Second, the LCUs would take their internal, organic supply with them, and then draw while out in the field. The 'Yes' on stockpile only prevents a base from sending to another base(s). But the draw would be very low unless there was combat.

But would you strip a base of defenders to get planes out? Especially when they're undamaged and can be Withdrawn? Not sure I would.

If BM has 20,000+ and it's still less than x2, he might need to do a lot of marching out.


I'd probably just withdraw them if I could do so without losing the planes. Waiting 60 days for them to hit the pools is fine with me.

And if they're Hurri-b's, well...you get so many B and C models that I really don't care much about the earlier ones. I want to say that in late '42 I had 150 each of B and C in each of my Allied games.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 12:31:37 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 1:09:53 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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Get rid of the yellow Q mark and you're good. If you want to do the arithmetic you can look at each LCU screen and figure out how many you have to march out.

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 2:23:21 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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Thanks for your help Mr Moose! :-)

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 2:28:13 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

If a CA, 4 DD and a DMS managed to damage 10 Kates, he has a lot more than that there. If you do not have a lot of CVEs with fighters to provide good CAP, and enough bombers to really hit the base hard, it isn't worth risking a strike.
The way I read your force composition you only have a single CVE? Dead meat now that you stirred up the hornet's nest.

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(in reply to BattleMoose)
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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 2:35:04 AM   
BattleMoose

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Hey, thanks for all the replies and help!

There is a yellow question mark over Chengtu and there is a very strong garrison there at the moment. Just under the stacking limit about 4000+ AV. Marching out is something that can easily be done. Hopefully it works!

Marcus Island:
I turned the transports around but still bombarded the island, damaged about 10 kates, destroyed 1 and got a hit on a PB. Thinking about sending the CVE forward a little, try and port/naval strike and then turn tail.

If a CA, 4 DD and a DMS managed to damage 10 Kates, he has a lot more than that there. If you do not have a lot of CVEs with fighters to provide good CAP, and enough bombers to really hit the base hard, it isn't worth risking a strike.
The way I read your force composition you only have a single CVE? Dead meat now that you stirred up the hornet's nest.


Yeah, I expect you are right. Discretion will be the better part of valour today. Time to turn tail. He had the opportunity to launch an airstrike the last turn but there wasn't one. Perhaps the orders weren't there, the forces were spotted. One of the strategic objectives was to stir up the hornets nest, so, going to count it as a win and go back to Adak.



< Message edited by BattleMoose -- 9/9/2014 3:35:46 AM >

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RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 2:05:28 PM   
BattleMoose

 

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First assault on Chungking, went amazing!

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 243304 troops, 2364 guns, 1325 vehicles, Assault Value = 7625

Defending force 204196 troops, 740 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4828

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1578

Allied adjusted defense: 9837

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 6 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
73211 casualties reported
Squads: 834 destroyed, 4058 disabled
Non Combat: 116 destroyed, 468 disabled
Engineers: 99 destroyed, 352 disabled
Guns lost 636 (144 destroyed, 492 disabled)
Vehicles lost 134 (26 destroyed, 108 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
9612 casualties reported
Squads: 66 destroyed, 638 disabled
Non Combat: 80 destroyed, 430 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 40 disabled
Guns lost 135 (14 destroyed, 121 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

My LCU are in fairly good shape, disruption varying between 5 and 20. Thinking about counter attacking? His forces must be trashed?


Cengtu Drop Tank Issue:

I moved out a heap of units, required draw is 8095. Supply in Chengtu plummeted to 16091! So just shy of X2. Lost the yellow exclamation point and drop tanks are still not available. The units that moved out, fairly badly overstacked the hex and many units have lost a lot of supply. So from the 4k lost in Chengtu and the LCUs losing supply too, lost a fair bit.

Next turn, more units will leave Chengtu into a different hex, hopefully that will bring me to the X2 requirement, or I am going to run out of fuel to run the HI.

(in reply to BattleMoose)
Post #: 28
RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 2:50:07 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17364
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
About the counterattack at Chungking ... the Chinese units have NO heavy weapons so their AV is considered "soft". The Japanese still have lots of heavy guns and even if none of their disabled squads recovers in time for next turn, they still have about 3000 raw AV.
The Japanese also have experience and morale on their side and if you attack they have the terrain advantage plus any field forts they have been able to build.
I use 10:1 as a guideline for when the Chinese raw AV is high enough to have much chance of success.
That said, an attack now will destroy some more IJA squads and they are worth more VPs than the Chinese ones - 4:1 I believe.


_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to BattleMoose)
Post #: 29
RE: BattleMoose Versus Endy, help a Newbie (No Endy ple... - 9/9/2014 3:51:36 PM   
BattleMoose

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 2/17/2014
Status: offline
I chose discretion and not to counter attack and Chungking.

Supplies at Chengtu were 7800 and required at 4000 so just short again. Was a good idea but didn't work, sending all the units back to fortress Chengtu. He is raiding Chengtu with Tojos last turn,he lost 9 and I lost 16 of various airframes, hawks, cobras, and hurris. Going to try and deplete the units of airframes and withdraw them.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 30
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