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RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ?

 
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RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 12:50:38 AM   
BeirutDude


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From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kushan04

I did some digging through documents and on [link=https://www.history.navy.mil/]Naval History and Heritage Command[/link. Stumbled upon it by accident the other day, looks like a great resource but it doesn't have everything. I wasn't able to find anything on Sara's escorts other then what I posted earlier. Maybe you'll have better luck.


Got my friend's Cruise Book Coming. He was on that cruise.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Kushan04)
Post #: 31
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 1:12:15 AM   
Kushan04


Posts: 568
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kushan04

I did some digging through documents and on [link=https://www.history.navy.mil/]Naval History and Heritage Command[/link. Stumbled upon it by accident the other day, looks like a great resource but it doesn't have everything. I wasn't able to find anything on Sara's escorts other then what I posted earlier. Maybe you'll have better luck.


Got my friend's Cruise Book Coming. He was on that cruise.


Are you able and willing to share? Please.

After going through all my research the other day its got me toying with the idea of a Operation Prairie Fire scenario or one based on some of the other Libyan contingency plans...after I do the F-117 variant of EDC that is.

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Post #: 32
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 12:34:50 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2311
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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quote:

Are you able and willing to share? Please.


Will do

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Kushan04)
Post #: 33
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 1:21:27 PM   
BeirutDude


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Looks to me like the Coral Sea and Saratoga escorts swapped out? Here is my guess When Saratoga went into the IO she took a limited escort with her as she was headed to Diego Garcia and when she returned to CONUS she took those with her leaving Coral Sea with a larger than normal escort. I suspect that is why the escorts are so confused, given the situation I think a lot of them were cross assigned between Battle Groups based on mission Like VAQ-135 doing the rapid, unannounced deployment to Coral Sea.

Escorts listed, and photographed, in the USS Saratoga's Cruise Book
USS Paul (FF-1080)
USS Richmond K Turner (CG-20)
USS Caron (DD-970)
USS Garcia (FF-1040)
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Scott (DDG-995)
USS Donald B Beary (FF-1085)
USS Mahan (DDG-42)
USS Ainsworth (FF-1090)

1 unidentified Oiler in picture

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 11/26/2020 1:22:08 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Kushan04)
Post #: 34
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 2:20:26 PM   
DWReese

 

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Knowing government work as I do, my guess is that whoever was typing up the list screwed up and accidently swapped the ships around. They probably figured that no one would ever notice. <lol>

Sometimes, the reason for abnormalities in anything is simply best explained by it being a screw up, as opposed to an actual or intentional act.

Doug

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Post #: 35
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 5:27:22 PM   
Kushan04


Posts: 568
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Knowing government work as I do, my guess is that whoever was typing up the list screwed up and accidently swapped the ships around. They probably figured that no one would ever notice. <lol>

Sometimes, the reason for abnormalities in anything is simply best explained by it being a screw up, as opposed to an actual or intentional act.

Doug


Probably. US CVBGs where also a lot more fluid in the 80s. Wasn't uncommon for ships to deploy solo and then get attached to multiple different groups during deployment then come home solo or with a group or ships to deploy with one group then get reattached to another during the cruise.

These days a CVSG generally train and deploys together or at least around the same time. While ships might not always be with the carrier they are usually within the same geographic area.

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Post #: 36
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/26/2020 5:29:44 PM   
Kushan04


Posts: 568
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Looks to me like the Coral Sea and Saratoga escorts swapped out? Here is my guess When Saratoga went into the IO she took a limited escort with her as she was headed to Diego Garcia and when she returned to CONUS she took those with her leaving Coral Sea with a larger than normal escort. I suspect that is why the escorts are so confused, given the situation I think a lot of them were cross assigned between Battle Groups based on mission Like VAQ-135 doing the rapid, unannounced deployment to Coral Sea.

Escorts listed, and photographed, in the USS Saratoga's Cruise Book
USS Paul (FF-1080)
USS Richmond K Turner (CG-20)
USS Caron (DD-970)
USS Garcia (FF-1040)
USS Yorktown (CG-48)
USS Scott (DDG-995)
USS Donald B Beary (FF-1085)
USS Mahan (DDG-42)
USS Ainsworth (FF-1090)

1 unidentified Oiler in picture


Thanks. Oiler might have been Savannah. Detroit, Mount Baker, and Savannah supported the Libyan ops for all 3 groups. Could also have been Monongahela. She came home with the Coral Sea group but could also have been supporting the others as well.

< Message edited by Kushan04 -- 11/26/2020 5:31:08 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 11/27/2020 1:59:33 PM   
BeirutDude


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From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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Actually, from the picture, it was a was a Cimarron-class so USS Monongahela.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Kushan04)
Post #: 38
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 12/22/2020 2:45:35 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2311
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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Almost done with this, been working on it for about a month. The idea is running a protracted campaign over several days not launching everything in a first wave war spasm. Changes from what I outlined below but still in keeping with the general concept!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Kushan04, Thank you. Very Helpful! So one of the issues with El Dorado Canyon is the French lack of cooperation wasn't because of rampant Anti-Americanism, as many Conservatives love to claim, but the fact we left them hanging on Beirut Retaliation in 1983 (Personal note: I loved it when the French hit the Bekaa Valley and watched their ingress/exit from the BIA Control Tower!!!!). Also France was actively fighting Libya in Chad and they wanted to totally take out Libya with a regime change, not a single strike. I'm working on a scenario where the French convince the Reagan Administration for a larger, joint mission, but the U.S. convinces France to hit them with a force degradation operation short of regime change.

So would be French CVBG (FOCH most likely)
The Sara CVBG (doesn't exit the Med)
America and Coral Sea CVBG (As historical)
Wisconsin SAG
F-111s base out of Corsica

About a 3-4 day operation (after that I suspect munitions would run low).



_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 39
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 12/24/2020 3:16:44 AM   
CV60


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Here are some references that may help you nail down the battlegroup composition for the Gulf of Sidra Operations. I was there with the USS SARATOGA. While the cruise books are a good reference for the battlegroup composition, they didn't always stay together during an entire deployment. Unfortunately, I don't recall exactly what our battlegroup composition was for the FON ops in March, but sometimes the command histories of various units can give you a good idea of the battlegroup composition.
From the 1986 Command History of USS DE WERT (FFG-45):
After leaving Antalya DE WERT rejoined USS CORAL SEA and proceeded to the
Gulf of Sidra for OVL phase 111. US$ AMERICA and her battle group (including
USS HALYBURTON and 2 more S~60Bs) joined the battle groups of USS CORAL SEA
and USS SARATOGA. During this operation, on 24 March, the Libyans fired SA-5
missiles at US fighter aircraft from a site at Surt, at the south center of
the Gulf of Sidra. Carrier aircraft damaged the missile site radars with HARM
missiles. Later that night Libyan missile patrol boats underway in the Gulf
of Sidra were sunk by Harpoon missiles and Rockeye bombs. DE WERT was at the
Southeast corner of the US Battle Force and conducted radar surveillance with
USS HALYBURTON using the LAMPS MK 111 to maintain 24 hour coverage of the
Gulf


From the 1986 Command History of USS HALYBURTON (FFG-40):
On 10 March, HALYBURTON deployed to the Mediterranean with dual
LAMPS MK 111 aircraft embarked. Two days later the ship joined the AMERICA
battlegroup consisting of the USS TICONDEROGA, USS DETROIT, USS VREELAND,
USS FARRAGUT, AND USS AYLWIN. On 16 March, HALYBURTON and VREELAND
detached and proceeded ahead for Soviet submarine prosecution.
HALYBURTON rejoined the battlegroup in the Mediterranean on 19 March. The
battlegroup proceeded to the Gulf of Sidra to conduct Freedom of Navigation
exercises. HALYBURTON and DE WERT together maintained 24 hour air
surveillance with the LAMPS MK 111 helicopter to identify air and surface
threats.
At the conclusion of Freedom of Navigation exercises, the AMERICA and
SARATOGA battlegroups proceeded to the Sicilian coast for turnover.
HALYBURTON had a direct turnover with DE WERT. During this inport period a
number of specific briefs were held.


(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 40
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 12/24/2020 9:20:40 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2311
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
That's good info on the Halyburton and De Wert SH-60B Lamps III. I adjusted my HSL units. As near as I can tell HSL-46 was the first LANT SH-60 squadron out of Mayport.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays/Happy Festivus!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 41
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 12/24/2020 9:40:12 PM   
T Rav

 

Posts: 362
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline
The amount of research this team puts in is extraordinary!

Thank you,
T Rav

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 42
RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? - 12/25/2020 5:38:47 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2311
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Almost done with this, been working on it for about a month. The idea is running a protracted campaign over several days not launching everything in a first wave war spasm. Changes from what I outlined below but still in keeping with the general concept!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Kushan04, Thank you. Very Helpful! So one of the issues with El Dorado Canyon is the French lack of cooperation wasn't because of rampant Anti-Americanism, as many Conservatives love to claim, but the fact we left them hanging on Beirut Retaliation in 1983 (Personal note: I loved it when the French hit the Bekaa Valley and watched their ingress/exit from the BIA Control Tower!!!!). Also France was actively fighting Libya in Chad and they wanted to totally take out Libya with a regime change, not a single strike. I'm working on a scenario where the French convince the Reagan Administration for a larger, joint mission, but the U.S. convinces France to hit them with a force degradation operation short of regime change.

So would be French CVBG (FOCH most likely)
The Sara CVBG (doesn't exit the Med)
America and Coral Sea CVBG (As historical)
Wisconsin SAG
F-111s base out of Corsica

About a 3-4 day operation (after that I suspect munitions would run low).




Doing my personal play testing on the scenario now. Lots of tweaking so far. This is a big scenario but again with sustained, rather than surge, air ops it is manageable once you set up your missions and set your aircraft loadouts.


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 43
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