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Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan

 
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Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/16/2014 2:12:40 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1164
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Hi guys - I have a couple of questions about the effectiveness of shipping fuel/oil from Malaya to Fusan via the overland route through China. I have a PBEM going as Japan, stock Scenario 1, and we are entering 1943. I want to minimize by exposure to the Allied sub threat by shipping fuel/oil overland. I have a clear path across China's southern coast.

My first question is if I start loading fuel or oil at Fusan, will this be sufficient to begin pulling fuel from Malaya?

My second question is if I begin loading at Fusan, will this also draw down the fuel stocks in Manchukuo and Korea and potentially cripple the HI production there?

Thanks in advance, Paul

< Message edited by pws1225 -- 8/16/2014 7:31:00 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/16/2014 7:09:45 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 3943
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Some players claim it is possible - others remain sceptical that it is worth the effort or working at all. I think the best that can be said about this concept is "not proven".

In any case, moving bulk commodities overland from Malaya to Fusan is utterly unrealistic (lack of trucks / no uninterrupted high-capacity rail connection) and attempting to do so is "gamey".

_____________________________


WitP AAR "Six Years of War"
AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 11/2019

(in reply to pws1225)
Post #: 2
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/16/2014 8:21:35 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4778
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		I'm Paul's opponent and I'm looking at this with his permission.

When we agreed to our GC we went with no house rules and left things to be talked over if we hit something gamey. Based on that I feel that I can't stop him from trying the overland route, but am not in favor of it. Until we reach a decision on this Paul will use tankers, not that I have subs to stop him because of distance and lack of forward basing, for now.

Would it be gamey if I threw troops into an area that they never would've been in order to disrupt this?

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 3
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/16/2014 9:41:22 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3315
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		I don't think just pulling from FUSAN would work. I think you need to pull stockpile from Bangkok / Rangoon. Personally I think if you got it to Bangkok via stockpiling, you can pull from Singapore via intermittently releasing the Bangkok stockpile settings. If you are building roads, you could eventually build the trans-asia rail and then you could get Fuson going theoretically. In reality, I think you will always be pulling from multiple hubs. besides, it is SOOOOO easy to destroy that production in Burma. Hardly seems worth the effort.

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Andy M

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 4
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/16/2014 11:04:14 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		As the Allies playing against the AI I did try to supply China from Singapore after capturing Thailand and Indochina. It doesn't really work. The breaks in the rail network in Indochina and southwestern China really don't move much. I have been able to get supplies to Korea by off loading in Hong Kong, but even that is slow because of the break in the rail network outside of Canton. I can't be sure oil or resources are going to move very well via that route. The refinery at Port Arthur is getting enough oil to keep operating though.

Offloading at Shanghai should work, it has a continuous rail connection with Korea. But if you are going as far as Shanghai, you might as well just go all the way to the Home Islands.

Trying to move massive amounts of stuff from Hong Kong might be a bit gamey, it depends on your house rules. The AI doesn't care.

Bill

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(in reply to topeverest)
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RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/17/2014 12:32:38 AM   
Richard III


Posts: 611
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Years back, some experienced Empire PBEM players suggested it works. But that was usually with Scenario 2 start supply benefits and building up FUSAN from T1, while planning on clearing South China ASAP.
While not land route specific, this might be useful:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3378961&mpage=1&key=Fusan%2Coil�

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RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/17/2014 2:09:38 AM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 632
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		So how does one move this stuff over land anyway? I am assuming it is done "behind the scenes" and we never actually have to allocate a system of transport for goods going across land?

The only way to know fuel/supplies are being moved over land is to check the stocks in other bases to see if they increase?

-Jason

(in reply to Richard III)
Post #: 7
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/17/2014 12:36:09 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1164
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Thanks for the replies guys. When I originally posted my question, I hadn't considered the implausible (and therefore 'gamey') nature of transporting fuel overland. However, it seems to be a consensus of those who replied that such a thing could not have been feasible for Japan. Therefore, Todd and I have agreed fuel/oil from the DEI will travel by ship back to the Home Islands. Thanks for your feedback.

Regards, Paul

(in reply to Ostwindflak)
Post #: 8
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/17/2014 12:46:46 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1164
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		@Ostwindflak - Overland transport from Singapore to Fusan would be accomplished by alternatively setting the Stockpile switch on and off at bases along your intended route. For example, if you had a bunch of oil at Singapore and you wanted to start moving it up through Rangoon, then Saigon, then Hanoi, etc., you would first set the Stockpile switch in Rangoon to "on". This would theoretically suck oil from Singers up to Rangoon. Once you had accumulated the oil in Rangoon, you would turn off the Stockpile switch there, and turn on the Stockpile switch in Saigon, thereby moving the oil further along your intended route. Then simply repeat the process all the way to Fusan.

That, anyway, is my understanding of how it might work.

(in reply to Ostwindflak)
Post #: 9
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/17/2014 9:30:18 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8850
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		OK, well it can be done. I've posted on it numerous times, you'll need to google search for one of them. There's about a dozen players (at least based upon responses to threads and email) who are able to get it to work ... its not just me. Not sure about your technique above, it may or may not work. My technique requires that you start on Dec 7. If you follow the roadmap, you have ~75% chance for it to work. If it fails Fusan, it will work to PA or Shanghai (or at least I've never had it not work at least that far). I've been able to pull resources all the way from India overland....

I've been asked about the parasitic cost and my answer is always:"I don't know, but I do know how many units I don't have to assign to ASW ... ".

As to historical ... well they did do it. Not a large percentage until late war when xAK losses forced them to, but they did do it to at least PA ... not sure how much through Fusan, but the end of the war is really the starting point for Fusan as we know it today. And today it is a very large, active port.

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Pax

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RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/18/2014 3:02:24 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 3943
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As to historical ... well they did do it. Not a large percentage until late war when xAK losses forced them to, but they did do it to at least PA ... not sure how much through Fusan, but the end of the war is really the starting point for Fusan as we know it today. And today it is a very large, active port.


Sources?

I beg to differ.

Road transportation of fuel from Malaya to Fusan - provided the Japanese had a meaningful number of tanker trucks available - seems unrealistic as it would consume more fuel to cover the distances involved than could be transported, so it would be uneconomical.

And AFAIK there was no through connection between Malaya and Korea by rail in WWII. One gap was between Cambodge and Vietnam (in fact, construction for such a rail connection started only in 2012) and I think construction on the Hanoi - Nanning - Liuchow railroad which started in 1937 was interrupted by the war and the line was finished only in the 1950s.

Furthermore, there are gauge differences between the Vietnam and Chinese railroads (narrow gauge in Vietnam and Malaya = lower capacity) and the big rivers in China were not spanned by bridges until after the war and passengers as well as freight had to be ferried accross - all limiting factors for moving large quantities of bulk freight.

It can also be safely assumed that long stretches of the railroads in occupied territories were in a state of disrepair through combat damage and lack of maintenance. Same goes for the rolling stock - which was inadequate to begin with. For example, Japan was playing a Rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul game with engines and railroad cars captured in Java to operate the Malaya and Burma-Thailand railroads, although the material of the Java and Malaya railroad systems was not fully compatible (e.g. buffer height difference of six inches).

In short, I find it hard to believe that any meaningful quantities of fuel, oil or ressources have been transported from Malaya to Fusan by overland route in WWII.

And I think the "starting point of Fusan as we know it today" was the Korean War, when Fusan (Pusan) was the closest port to Japan (staging point for Korea) and for a time the only port available to UN Forces.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 8/18/2014 4:06:02 PM >

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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"
AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 11/2019

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 11
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/20/2014 12:54:59 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8850
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		LST,

I was not referring just to fuel, but rather resources in general as a great collage. What I am aware of is that supply was shipped in and certain strategic resources shipped out via land: rubber etc. As to sources, just google this forum, it has already been discussed. How much? Now that is the sticking point. Records exist that show supply/resources wre moved overland in ever increasing amounts, but they are incomplete. Also, as has been already discussed, you have fallen into a typical American "hole" by thinking trucks are required to move goods long distances. It has been demonstrated many times in history in asia that human pack horses can, and have done, this job. Again, all of this has been previusly discussed in these forums. I don't recal if you participated or not. I can also tell you the discussions were inconclusive. Either you believe the evidence presented or you don't

For me, I've had a mark 1 eyeball on almost that entire route in one of my earlier lives. In the 70's, 30 years after the war, most goods were still being transported on those roads by, wait for it, people. This is in a non-war situation ... extrapolate to war and you can reach your own conclusions.

For someone sitting in Des Moines in 2014 does this seem plausible? Heck no. We americans walk no further than our garage. We need a cart to get our groceries to our car. Pack 80 lbs for 40 miles? Hardly. But for a lot of aisia yet to this day, that is routine. Again, you just have to see it to understand and beleive it. Then you need to take that and multiply it by the one thing asia has in abundance ... population.

I'll share one last anecdote: I was building a refinery in china in 1980. We needed to raise a 100m tall distillation tower. Now in Korea just a few months earlier we used a crane for this. a big one. China didn't have cranes, but they had several villages of people. They had 6" ropes. So several thousand people hauling on 3 ropes raised that tower. I will add to this that on the first day, one of the splices failed and one rope parted. 83 were killed (that I counted) and unknown 100's injured. The next day they had additional 1000's and raised the tower.

You'll either beleive it possible or not. As i said, the last discussion on this ended exactly that way. Take it as you will. It isn't all that big of deal.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 12
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/20/2014 2:45:05 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 3943
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Pax,
I don't seek a fight. I am aware of some of the incredible achievements that human manpower has done in Asia in that era and shortly after - building the "Death Railways", hauling artillery through the jungle to blast Dien Bien Phu or pushing heavily-laden bicycles along the Ho Chi Minh trail for example. The HCM trail is probably the closest thing to moving stuff from Malaya to Fusan. But this logistical effort was first aided and then largely supplanted by - trucks. They managed to move about 40.000 tons per year at the end of the war (or so says, ahem, Wikipedia). Also it took up to 6 months to travel the Ho Chi Minh trail on foot - esp. during the monsoon. Just to bridge the gaps between the railroads in Cambodge, Vietnam and China with "human pack horses" would take months and require huge numbers of coolies to move any significant amount of stuff. Also the OP talks about moving fuel/oil - not food, ammo, smalll arms and "light" weapons like mortars and RPGs. It might have been worth the effort for relative small quantities of strategic materials like tungsten or the like, but I remain convinced that moving useful quantities of fuel/oil overland from Malaya to Fusan was not a realistic option. But be it as it may - up to the opponents to agree on a HR on this.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 8/20/2014 3:47:06 PM >

_____________________________


WitP AAR "Six Years of War"
AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 11/2019

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 13
RE: Overland Fuel/Oil Transport from Malaya to Fusan - 8/21/2014 3:48:37 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8850
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
- up to the opponents to agree on a HR on this.

Exactly ...

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Pax

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Post #: 14
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