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RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS...

 
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[Poll]

Red Storm would sell better if OTS...


Made the game look better.
  20% (40)
Made more scenarios and campaigns.
  22% (43)
Included more maps.
  7% (15)
Provided better documentation.
  2% (5)
Fixed all of the bugs in the game engine.
  8% (17)
Provided a better combat model.
  5% (10)
Did more advertising and marketing of the game.
  7% (14)
Lowered the cost of the game.
  2% (4)
Put the game on sale for a week/weekend.
  6% (12)
Sold the game on Steam.
  16% (31)


Total Votes : 191


(last vote on : 11/28/2014 9:53:06 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/14/2014 7:04:06 PM   
Mad Russian


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If you had read anything about the game graphics you would know the maps were done in HexDraw. Intentionally.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)
Post #: 31
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/15/2014 3:57:25 AM   
trebcourie

 

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I am not an eye candy type of guy and love hex wargames, but even I was turned off a little by the clunky movement the first time I saw a preview video of the game. I still bought it and play it regularly, with no regrets, but I think making the game a little prettier and a little smoother would give it more curb appeal.

I personally don't care that much and love the game, but the question is about what would make it sell better. And frankly, the graphics are a negative to your potential audience.

One other thing I would like tweaked -- during the replay, I wish there were more controls to stop and rewind the replay. And the PBEM replay, where I have to watch the units reset themselves, could be fixed.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 32
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/15/2014 4:03:04 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 7603
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online
We are working to improve the basic map graphics, but we'll never be as pretty as the hand drawn stuff. There are some new map markers being made that look real good and more inline with where we are heading for 2.1.

As for the replay and rewinds, please add your thoughts and details in the new Ideas sub-forum so we can catch them for 2.1 and beyond.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to trebcourie)
Post #: 33
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/16/2014 12:37:36 AM   
MikeAP

 

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Any chance we would see smoother unit movement. It would be nice to see continuous smooth movement versus the intermittent movement we have now

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Post #: 34
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/16/2014 2:50:08 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 7603
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From: Newark, OH
Status: online
MikeAP, that is a tough one. We have a very low dx7 capable graphics engine to support the low end machines. Move speeds are also a function of your CPU, gpu, drivers, load from the scenario etc. At some point we will need to jump up the engine, but there is no date for that. It would require a hearty overhaul of pretty much every graphics based function. Noted as a request though. May be worth posting a thread in the Features and Ideas sub-forum.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to MikeAP)
Post #: 35
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/16/2014 12:53:53 PM   
Ron

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

If you had read anything about the game graphics you would know the maps were done in HexDraw. Intentionally.

Good Hunting.

MR



I still do not understand the resistance/justification/explanations bla bla bla from you. Face it, most wargamers(your audience) felt the graphics really were sub par, not just by industry standards, but by wargame standards. Get over it and move on. That said, I applaud the work Plodder has been doing - sub him out asap!

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 36
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/16/2014 1:18:58 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13255
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
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There is no resistance, justification from me. I'm simply explaining what we chose to do and how. We also chose to make the game, maps moddable so that those with a more advanced skill set than we have could create what we didn't/couldn't. As has also been explained a myriad of times, we are constantly looking to see where we want to take the maps.

While you may well really like one modders work not everyone may agree with your assessment of it. With the idea that we have to hit as close to the mark, with as many of our customers as possible, and not just one, we will continue working in that direction.

In the meantime, we put a folder in the game that allows you to easily use any of the mods that you prefer.

The alternative would have been the same 4 map set that was done for FPG. I think it's time we did a poll to see who prefers the 25+ maps I created for the game that are 'supremely sub-par' compared to 4 very pretty maps, and see what the result of that poll will be.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 8/16/2014 2:20:51 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 37
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/26/2014 9:45:01 PM   
Ron

 

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MadRussian - Well your last sentence contradicts the first and pretty much confirms what I said, and the 4 vs 25 really is a dishonest comparison. The Plodders and others have proved that. As for the part of 'hit as close to the mark, with as many of our customers as possible', I think this poll and comments answer what customers want to see improved.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 38
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/26/2014 10:33:42 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 7603
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online
Ron, the 4 vs 25+ is the actual fact. More facts. One, we decided as a team to go with mapping scheme we did to have more maps. Two, we did not at the time and even now, have the time and talent to make maps like these guys are doing now. Three, being the one who did the map art in a way for our map value reader would work, the was a limit to color selection and resolution. Four, almost a year in, and the number of new maps is three and only one is released with an fp9 file. Five, Plodder is using a dummy map with our target colors to run through the map values editor to save time from the hand entry of the 4000 - 5000 values on a map of standard size. I could go on, but the reality is we made a lot of maps, they are functional, I'll freely admit not pretty, but they work. We are looking at a couple of options to improve the look to the base maps going forward, but we have to be able to fit in any changes to the schedule we have for the next game. As Steve points out, we made the game very mod friendly so others could make the content fit their style and if you don't like something there is a way to replace it. I'm very happy we have a number of talented moders doing content for the game and that others are enjoying it.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 39
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/26/2014 11:12:27 PM   
Plodder


Posts: 998
Joined: 7/28/2003
From: New Zealand
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Ron, you're being very unfair to OTS.

I wish people would stop comparing my output compared to MR's and the Capn, I've been making maps since January this year and have only managed to produce 14 maps. Those take me a long time to make, up to 30-40 hours per map, and those are just re-skins. Creating a map from scratch takes even longer, I've put that many hours into my Berlin map already and I'm not even half way yet.(William's maps are quicker to produce as he uses a program to render the maps using the map data but even then someone has to create the map data first). That's a long time especially since I work split shifts on a 4 day on/4 day off cycle with the mrs. working the other 4, and we also have 3 children under 5 yrs who keep us busy.

The OTS guys work full-time and have families as well so I have no problems with the implementation of the maps, the fact they have put a system in place that lets us mod the game to our heart's content is awesome. I agree the the basic map graphics could do with a facelift, but they are not that bad really, they just need some tweaking.

< Message edited by The Plodder -- 8/27/2014 12:14:08 AM >


_____________________________

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Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 40
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 8/27/2014 1:17:45 AM   
Mad Russian


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Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

MadRussian - Well your last sentence contradicts the first and pretty much confirms what I said, and the 4 vs 25 really is a dishonest comparison. The Plodders and others have proved that. As for the part of 'hit as close to the mark, with as many of our customers as possible', I think this poll and comments answer what customers want to see improved.


So, you want to beat a dead horse. That's fine with me. Complain about the graphics of our maps. You're in good company but months late. This is not news.

There were 4 maps in the original Flash Point Germany. There are 25 maps I made in Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm and a couple made by part of the Beta Test team. Those are facts. I don't know what you think is dishonest about that.

This poll is about anything that our customers think would help the game sell better. This is not a "Do you like the maps?" thread. If you want to make it about maps that's up to you. Personally, I'm beyond that, except to answer questions or comments put to me about why the maps don't fit a particular gamers tastes.

I feel that everyone that paid to play the game has a right to say what they like. Just like I have an obligation to answer their comments.

Now that we have had this little chat we won't need to discuss it again.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 41
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/1/2014 6:57:16 PM   
OldSarge


Posts: 323
Joined: 11/25/2010
From: Albuquerque, NM
Status: offline
I think OTS would be well served by getting more articles written in the other online military history forums, like Armchair General.

I'm not strictly talking about AARs, some readers might gloss over those, but articles with historical merit concerning NATO/WP tactics, equipment, organization and training and general mindset might get you a few readers. You could then use the game to demonstrate parts of the article..without it coming across as a sales pitch.

After all of the research your team has put into this 'game' I know that you have compiled a wealth of data on just about every aspect of the period - weapons systems, tactics, C3. You have the worm, now you just need to bait the hook.

I don't think outside of the initial release game reviews that I've seen anything else about the game that might get people interested. So my vote is for better marketing, for whatever my 2/100 of a dollar gets you!

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 42
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/4/2014 10:19:00 PM   
Ron

 

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I'm not sure where or why this turned into a 4vs25 maps issue. No one is suggesting to go back to the original 4 FG number of maps. The poll outcome is weighted towards make the game look better (maps being one weak area and which is what I commented on), along with more scenarios/campaigns. I'm well aware these are projects of love and a lot of work goes unrewarded financially and/or relies a lot on unpaid volunteer work. I think it is all lessons learned from the original FG to this version and to the next, for you to take or leave for what it's worth. Shrugs.

(in reply to OldSarge)
Post #: 43
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/5/2014 1:25:45 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 7603
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online
Ron,

We are looking into a few things to improve the look of the maps for the next game and that is the import part of the discussion.


OldSarge,

Marketing is an import part of expanding our base and Matrix/Slitherine along with us having a Facebook and now an OTS website will need to find ways to better promote the game and get it in front of more people and war gamers. As noted in this thread, we need to have a better look to grab more attention (granted that has no bearing on gameplay, but looks sell). With a better look we may be able to approach Steam (Advance Tactics Gold paves the opening for that) and basically you guys talking us up with other people. Hex map and counter board games are doing well and seem to be picking up in popularity again and hopefully our game will appeal to this growing crowd.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 44
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/5/2014 1:44:42 AM   
mikeCK

 

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Hell, I think the graphics are good for a hex and counter wargame. I like Plodders maps but I never thought graphics were an issue to begin with. Go look at some John Tiller games and after your eyes start bleeding, come back to this. It's a counter wargame.....what kind if graphics did you want

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 45
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/5/2014 7:24:39 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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It's only a 'hex and counter wargame' because it looks like one. If it looked more realistic it would be a 'computer simulation of command', or some such. There are many people out there - like me - who wouldn't buy a John Tiller game just because the maps look like someone took a photo of a boardgame from thirty years ago (when I used to play them). The computer environment can provide richer immersion than that. There are many who are happy with playing board games on a computer too, but surely they won't be turned away if the graphics are spruced up? It doesn't hurt their objectives or ideals to have more detailed realistic graphics on their 'board', no? So I guess, OTS could only increase sales by making more 'realistic' maps.

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 46
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/5/2014 7:37:13 AM   
76mm


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Regarding the JTS games: while I agree that the artwork in the original games was practically painful to look at, there are numerous excellent graphics mods which turn the games into things of beauty (really!).

Moreover, for the most recent games JTS has apparently hired the modders to do the artwork, so they look good "out of the box".

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 47
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 9/5/2014 9:14:18 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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They're turn-based too, are they not, 76mm? Otherwise I might look at them. Which would you recommend for decent art-work, then? I browsed his site a couple of days ago and thought they all looked much the same, but I might have missed the game you had in mind.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 48
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 10/16/2014 3:21:55 AM   
Perturabo


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I think it could help if demo was prominently visible - that is linked in a sticky topic on forums and on the game downloads page. Flashpoint Campaigns didn't even exist to me until I have found the demo in news about some competition.

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 49
RE: Red Storm would sell better if OTS... - 10/16/2014 3:34:41 AM   
CapnDarwin


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From: Newark, OH
Status: online
Perturabo, That demo is so old and out of date compared to where the 2.04, 2.05 and soon the 2.06 updates have brought the game system. Very much night and day. It is out there if folks want to mess with it, but from a developer stand point it would be test driving a mini-van compared to a sports car. I'll bring it up in the next Dev call we have and see what the rest of the team thinks.


_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues. Our new website is live! Please check it out.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Perturabo)
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