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RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/16/2014 10:44:35 PM   
lurchi


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From: LV-223
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A little update. The last 6 free components as well as the special armor stay reserved for race tech unless the cap gets raised.

So, right now there are 294 components - new weapons, new reactors, new thrusters, new resources... well, you name it, I have it. Including several new types of weapon. There are well over 900 research projects - will be about 1000 soon. When I hit the cap I'll have to harass Erik again.
Since I included a whole bunch of new resource pics I also replaced about half of the vanilla ones to make them match. I added / modded galactopedia entries wherever possible. So far it's not possible for the new weapon types.
I'll add what's still missing and continue rebalancing. Once this is done and the component bug is fixed there'll be beta time.



(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 451
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 6:41:06 AM   
DinoSaurus


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Blackstork, please do NOT FORGETT to add a REAL DINOSAUR-RACE!!!

This is VERY IMPORTANT!



Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeeeee


A nice one...

... not to stupid and a little more friendly/diplomatic...

^^

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 452
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 6:44:20 AM   
DinoSaurus


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Well, I started to add a few new once, but then stopped due to the mods here in the forum.

I think one special rare luxus resource on each planet would be fine. You have all 80 resources? Or are some free slots?


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Post #: 453
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 11:48:13 AM   
lurchi


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I have a whole bunch of new luxury and strategic resources, but there are still about 15 free. So, if you have suggestions, ideally complete with galactopedia entry, gimme.

(in reply to DinoSaurus)
Post #: 454
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 4:36:45 PM   
Cmiller

 

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Okay, here are some resource ideas (Beware: My Galactipedia entries suck, so you may need to adjust accordingly):

Adamantium:

Harder than steel and theorized to be the very metal that made up the claws of Wolverine in Marvel's X-man comics, this is considered a much needed improvement in armors and casings for starships. Adamantium is a common material found usually on rocky bodies floating in space, and barren moons.

Polydenum:

These are materials only mined in the deep caverns and catacombs of a planetary core. Deep within, the extremes heating gives this material a profound energy, which makes it useful in engines running at speeds faster than warp speed. With this new material, our efforts at reaching speeds beyond measure are nearly unmatched. These core fragments are also useful in prcoesses for reactors and sometimes shieldings, as well. They are very hard to grab, and only planets with a very hot and active core, such as volcanic planets, will have the high-powered fragments needed for use in starships.

Eridium:

A bright, purple, highly valuable, and presumably radioactive element that proves very useful in the making of railguns and missiles. Also useful in the making of certain high-tech armors. Can be found commonly on barren moons and ice worlds. Sometimes (though rarely), on Marshy Swamps and Continental worlds too.

Malignite:

A black material used to exercise the use of mind control. In the presence of malignite, which is found in abundance on very high mountainous locations throughout the galaxy, (sometimes deep underground too), control of sentient subjects is completely effective in almost one hundred percent of cases. It should be in our best interested to find this rare material in place them in every starship available so we may one day take over the galaxy.

Orichalcum:

The very material said to power the mythical Earth city of Alantis, this material proved very useful in the making of advanced gravitic weapons, and machines used to control time and space. We must take care when mining this though, as it highly radioactive and unstable. As of right now, we've only been able to find them on icy worlds, and even then, in only small quantities.

Radium X:

Said to be discovered by Dr. Janos Rukh in 1936, this material is useful in the creations of powerful death beams as use of destructive mass terror. Its also theroized to have strange healing powers. If so, then it would be very useful in the making of advanced medbays. So far, even though Dr. Janos claims to have discovered it, there has been no sightings of it, even in the most resourceful locations of space.

That's all I have so far, I may have more suggestions later. Hope this expands your imagination a bit :). Took these ideas from some of my favorite sci-fi movies.

EDIT: Oh lurchi, another idea for you. Hemp (or some sci-fi variant of it). Yes, we need more pot-heads in space. I'm quite sure the Shandar or Securans do these things in their spare-time Or if anything, come up with some kind of illegal contraband. It think it could be a useful role-play for the space pirates, you know. It'd be great to have that empire that controls the illegal monopoly of rare resources, too. It make this game feel much more like a space opera than it already is, too.

Cmiller

< Message edited by Cmiller -- 9/17/2014 5:53:14 PM >

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 455
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 7:57:18 PM   
lurchi


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I already have Adamantium (almost identical with yours) and Orichalcum (completely different).
Malignite is interesting, but intruducing new game concepts isn't possible. The others... we'll see.

Regarding hemp, I did include generic drugs.

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 456
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 9:11:32 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

but intruducing new game concepts isn't possible




300 is better but still limiting, 500 would be great, a 1000 would be ideal

Darkspire

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Post #: 457
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/17/2014 11:13:06 PM   
joproulx99

 

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Here is some numbers for you in case you are interrested in this ( you should be i guess lol)

this is a ratio damage vs armor that id like you to check

example:

armor 16 / 2
damage 10

(NOTE: railgun damage should be the same as beam because they have 50% shield bypass but 50% less effective vs armor == 1:1 ,
phaser should be at 75% of that and missile should be at 125% damage wise ( always vs beam damage) i rounded up in this example:

rail:10 - 2 = 8 / 2 = 4 / 16 = 25%
beam:10 - 2 = 8 / 16 = 50%
phaser:8 - 2 = 6 x 2 = 12 / 16 = 75%
missile:13 - 2 = 10 / 2 = 5.5 / 16 = 34%

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART (lol)
Result is a ratio armor 8/1 per 5 damage per tech level is nice balance wise.

range/speed/rate should affect size and energy used but NOT damage.(damage should stay at this ratio always).
Also damage loss per 100 is a CAN OF WORM and should not exist IMHO for the good of balance.

Also the 10% bonus / malus to accuracy of phasers and rails should be considered but not by touching damage...only range/energy/size/speed/rate etc..

About torpedo...they should fall into one of these categories with either bombard damage added or idk different range/energy/size but again not damage.

anyway this is my 2c on this important matter that is weapon balance.

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 458
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 3:21:51 AM   
Cmiller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joproulx99
Also damage loss per 100 is a CAN OF WORM and should not exist IMHO for the good of balance.


I +1 this along with joproulx99. Damage loss should be removed entirely. What does anybody else think?

Cmiller

(in reply to joproulx99)
Post #: 459
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 5:38:52 AM   
DinoSaurus


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@both:

... funny, I also thought about orichalcum...

Well, if you have not any special Luxury resources like Zantabia etc. on ICE, I would suggest ICE CRISTALS... extremly rare material which induces very low temperatures. Could be used for different special things: extrem temperature evolving weapons, special food storage...

... and if possible on BARREN PLANETS: STAR DUST - powdered residues of rock from meteorites or s.th. like this, extremly rare luxury resource and could only found on planets (or asteroids?) with no vegetation and climate... I thought of this like some people of rhino horns or some other animal parts you normaly won't eat...^^ -- makes the planet population happy^^

common mineral: MAGNETITE - could be found on planets with vulcanic activities, especially on vulcanic and continental planets, maybe also others... will be needed for weapons, but maybe also for transportation, if you have something which needed magnetic behaviour... ^^

LITHIUM - mineral resource which shows higly agressive behaviour to water. Could be used for terrafroming items and especially LITHIUM-BOMBS - typically found on desert planets..

ICE LICHES - only will be found on ice planets. is a luxury resource which makes some races happy... I have no further definition until now... if there is any possibility to define negative effects: Works as drug/poison on insectoid-races

ZERADON - is a gas-resource. The idea was to use it for another kind of power unit, but I think you will have s.th. like this...

< Message edited by DinoSaurus -- 9/18/2014 6:41:29 AM >

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 460
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 5:43:25 AM   
DinoSaurus


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By the way - if there is something interesting, I will try to prepare text and icon

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Post #: 461
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 5:53:03 AM   
Blackstork


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The issue needed to be remembered and checked how much bigger quantity of luxury and strategic resources will influence the economics, happiness cap and supply / demand and access to basic resources? Will be there much more resources per planet? Per system? How much economy and happiness maximum will be compared to vanilla resource set? How that change game and balance? Just saying - there will be need to mind those things.

_____________________________


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Post #: 462
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 7:11:55 AM   
Hawkeye_BF


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DinoSaurus

Well, I started to add a few new once, but then stopped due to the mods here in the forum.

I think one special rare luxus resource on each planet would be fine. You have all 80 resources? Or are some free slots?





PLEASE not on each planet a special rare luxus resource, that would be realy boring !!!
There would be no more challange in the game with the ressources :(

< Message edited by Hawkeye_BF -- 9/18/2014 8:13:22 AM >

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Post #: 463
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 8:11:49 AM   
DinoSaurus


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Why not?

Special luxury resources you will have once in a galaxy. I think this would be a nice item...

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Post #: 464
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 8:16:40 AM   
DinoSaurus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork

The issue needed to be remembered and checked how much bigger quantity of luxury and strategic resources will influence the economics, happiness cap and supply / demand and access to basic resources? Will be there much more resources per planet? Per system? How much economy and happiness maximum will be compared to vanilla resource set? How that change game and balance? Just saying - there will be need to mind those things.


You are right. But I think due to the moment it is hard to say anything regarding to balancing the game - CFirst Lurchi has to finish the Sience-Tree...

In my opinion it is more interesting, if you will have all in all more different possibilities on resources. E.g. - on ice planets you only find four resources... why not more? But I agree with you that there is a rebalancing needed...

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 465
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 11:28:10 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joproulx99

Here is some numbers for you in case you are interrested in this ( you should be i guess lol)
[..]
anyway this is my 2c on this important matter that is weapon balance.


It's not that easy. You also have to consider the energy consumption.
More energy -> more reactors -> less space for weapons.
The speed of the ship is important as well, especially for low range weapons. Even the speed of the shots has a certain impact. Then there's the damage vs range equasion.

More damage and less range is not as good as less damage and more range - unless your ship is fast enough to go near the target. More range and less damage is better as less range and more damage - unless the reactive armor of your target reduces the damage no almost nothing.

Also I'm dead against removing damage reduction. It's a fact that weapons using some sort of focussed energy loose damage. Removing it would devalue weapons without it like missiles. It would destroy battle tactics like point blank if you have the same damage at maximum range. Damage reduction increases diversity - and I'm all for diversity.

(in reply to joproulx99)
Post #: 466
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 11:35:10 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DinoSaurus

@both:

... funny, I also thought about orichalcum...

Well, if you have not any special Luxury resources like Zantabia etc. on ICE, I would suggest ICE CRISTALS... extremly rare material which induces very low temperatures. Could be used for different special things: extrem temperature evolving weapons, special food storage...

... and if possible on BARREN PLANETS: STAR DUST - powdered residues of rock from meteorites or s.th. like this, extremly rare luxury resource and could only found on planets (or asteroids?) with no vegetation and climate... I thought of this like some people of rhino horns or some other animal parts you normaly won't eat...^^ -- makes the planet population happy^^

common mineral: MAGNETITE - could be found on planets with vulcanic activities, especially on vulcanic and continental planets, maybe also others... will be needed for weapons, but maybe also for transportation, if you have something which needed magnetic behaviour... ^^

LITHIUM - mineral resource which shows higly agressive behaviour to water. Could be used for terrafroming items and especially LITHIUM-BOMBS - typically found on desert planets..

ICE LICHES - only will be found on ice planets. is a luxury resource which makes some races happy... I have no further definition until now... if there is any possibility to define negative effects: Works as drug/poison on insectoid-races

ZERADON - is a gas-resource. The idea was to use it for another kind of power unit, but I think you will have s.th. like this...


I already have something slightly similar to ice crystals, ice liches and zeradon. The others just might wind up in the mod in some form or other.

(in reply to DinoSaurus)
Post #: 467
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 11:35:53 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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From: LV-223
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DinoSaurus

By the way - if there is something interesting, I will try to prepare text and icon


Thanks.

(in reply to DinoSaurus)
Post #: 468
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 11:46:23 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork

The issue needed to be remembered and checked how much bigger quantity of luxury and strategic resources will influence the economics, happiness cap and supply / demand and access to basic resources? Will be there much more resources per planet? Per system? How much economy and happiness maximum will be compared to vanilla resource set? How that change game and balance? Just saying - there will be need to mind those things.


You can have more resources per planet, IIRC up to six, so there's still plenty free space. I guess it's demand and supply just like with the vanilla ressources. Happyness due to luxuries can be set in the race files, no problem here. I doubt it'll have substantial influence on balance since every race can get the new ressources. Well, unless I create a race specific drug that turns the populace into zombies.

It sure will influence the game if rare ressources get expensive, though. Like one advanced armor alloy I have added that uses very rare stuff. We'll see how that works out during beta testing. If need be I can just increase the availability.

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Post #: 469
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 11:58:44 AM   
lurchi


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From: LV-223
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hawkeye_BF

quote:

ORIGINAL: DinoSaurus

Well, I started to add a few new once, but then stopped due to the mods here in the forum.

I think one special rare luxus resource on each planet would be fine. You have all 80 resources? Or are some free slots?



PLEASE not on each planet a special rare luxus resource, that would be realy boring !!!
There would be no more challange in the game with the ressources :(


Too many super luxuries would take away the special something, true. I might use the system for something different if need be, depends on certain stuff I set up working the way I intended or not.

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Post #: 470
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 12:00:05 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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From: LV-223
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DinoSaurus

on ice planets you only find four resources... why not more?


There is more.

Edit: As for why, I guess it's due to there being only gas and luxuries. Mineral and gas resources can't be mixed so most stuff can't be on ice worlds.

< Message edited by lurchi -- 9/18/2014 1:46:40 PM >

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Post #: 471
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 1:46:33 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
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I just found a problem when ...

Problem solved. It works even though it shouldn't.

< Message edited by lurchi -- 9/18/2014 3:00:14 PM >

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Post #: 472
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 2:40:26 PM   
Kizucha

 

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Lurchi... i need your mod to play DW.

I now go and search a game to play, no motivation to any game i have.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 473
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 2:47:57 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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From: LV-223
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Damn, found another problem. This one is really evil.

I have added four types of drugs with various effects, but a race can only have 3 ressources affecting them and most are already used up.

I placed it on my wish list.

(in reply to Kizucha)
Post #: 474
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 2:56:11 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kizucha

Lurchi... i need your mod to play DW.

I now go and search a game to play, no motivation to any game i have.


Are we there yet?
Soon.

(in reply to Kizucha)
Post #: 475
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 4:34:25 PM   
Kizucha

 

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Ok... soon...*mumble* what should i do...

And yeeeeeeeees my life is boring and it only waits for the release of your mod, i neeeeeeeeeeed your mod! And no dont take this serius, i only wait for the support on an new mmo i trie but as alway's the support is not very fast on the release time because they get flooded with "help-me"-cry-mails.

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Post #: 476
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 9:42:33 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

You can have more resources per planet, IIRC up to six,


You can have eight per planet / asteroid (both types).

Darkspire

_____________________________


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Post #: 477
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/18/2014 9:46:45 PM   
joproulx99

 

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quote:

It's not that easy. You also have to consider the energy consumption.


But I do agree with this...in my post thats exactly what im saying, though english isnt my native langage so maybe im not clear lol here I'll try a second time :P

what i meant is this:

Tech level 0 weapons and armor:

armor is 8/1
damage is :
beam 5
rails 5
phasers 4 (5 x 0.75 = 3.75 rounded up = 4)
missiles 6 (5 x 1.25 = 6.25 rounded = 6)

then for the next tech level simply double armor and damage of beam and follow the same equation for other weapons so:

Tech level 1 is:

Armor 16/2
damage is :
beam 10
rails 10
phasers 8 (10 x 0.75 = 7,5 rounded up = 8)
missiles 13 (10 x 1.25 = 12.5 rounded = 13)

the key thing here isnt dps no, it is DAMAGE PER SHOT PER WEAPON TYPE. Please do read.

Specialty weapons:

rails: will make those who dont upgrade armors (in favor for shields for example) regret it, as it should be.
beams: are jack of all trade.
phasers: are anti armor specialist but deplete shields slower then beam, as it should be.
missiles: are best weapons vs shields, but suffer againt armor, as it should be.

By deviating from this ratio you will have broken results. aka vanilla Torpedo syndrom. Torpedo in vanilla at close enough range bypass (or almost anyway) armor by having too high damage per shot, its dull. They have high energy usage sure...but who cares at +/- 12 size, just but another reactor at +/- 20 size and problem solve, good to go break the game with boken weapons lol.

quote:

More energy -> more reactors -> less space for weapons.
The speed of the ship is important as well, especially for low range weapons. Even the speed of the shots has a certain impact. Then there's the damage vs range equasion.

More damage and less range is not as good as less damage and more range - unless your ship is fast enough to go near the target. More range and less damage is better as less range and more damage - unless the reactive armor of your target reduces the damage no almost nothing.


Now like i said in my post : ''Size/Energy per shot/range/projectyle speed/rate of fire'' need to be in relation one another of course!! BUT do not touch DAMAGE PER SHOT!!

example let say you want long range and short range version of each weapons:

lets do it with missiles:

''we'' decide that 1 size = 1 energy use = 10 range = 10 speed = 0.1 sec rate

at 10 size we would get

10 energy use, 100 range, 100 speed, rate 1 sec

now i want a range 900 missile weapon! easy :

900 range / 10 range = 90 so...

size 90, energy used 90, speed 900, rate 9

Now ships with short range weapons can afford to put any combo they like between more engines to go point blank, ions, trator, etc...since they pay less in size/energy for same DAMAGE PER SHOT :P while long range weapons have the advantage of starting the fight from a distance, also good for spaceports infinte size defenses.

quote:

Also I'm dead against removing damage reduction. It's a fact that weapons using some sort of focussed energy loose damage. Removing it would devalue weapons without it like missiles. It would destroy battle tactics like point blank if you have the same damage at maximum range. Damage reduction increases diversity - and I'm all for diversity.


This would be cool thing if we had a more complex fight! we dont :S . Its stand off or point blank. Thats it. There is no inbetween so why have the assles of damage reduced per 100 when you cant control it...at least AI cant decide hey vs x ship combo i should stay at stand off vs being at point blank! but no it wont happen.

(in reply to Kizucha)
Post #: 478
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/19/2014 6:28:08 AM   
Shark7


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My thoughts on weapons:

I believe that weapons should be balanced in a way that there is no one 'best' weapon. Basically, the weapons should all equal out so that they have the same damage per second per size unit. Larger weapons do more base damage, faster firing weapons have weaker base damage, etc...but in the end, when it gets right down to it, if your formula for success is 1 damage per 1 second per 1 size unit, then ALL weapons should equal that DPS/Size goal.

Example of three 'balanced' weapons:

Laser that does 1 damage per shot, fires once per second and 'weighs' 1 unit

Rail gun that does 3 damage per shot, fires once per 3 seconds, and 'weighs' 3 units

Torpedo does 10 damage per shot, fires once every 10 seconds and 'weighs' 10 units

When you break it down, they all do the same damage per second per weight, and thus none of these weapons is 'superior'. It makes weapons fits less about how many of the 'best' you can get on, and simply a matter of taste. It also ensures that no matter what template the AI is given, their ships can remain competitive (assuming the player does not customize designs).

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

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Post #: 479
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New huge research t... - 9/19/2014 10:01:23 AM   
Locarnus


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Weapon balancing is not just simple math, since so many complex factors are involved (reactive armor, shield recharge, energy consumption, range, and so on)
While math is a part of it, experience/intuition and experimentation/testing are much more important.


@Shark7:
The laser would need to be balanced vs a reactive armor rating. The torpedo would have a dpst of 0.1 while the rail gun would have 0.3 dpst, without reactive armor (damage/second*ton is a relevant measure, not DPS/size). Also, no formula goal is good for comparison, due to the complex factors, not dpst or dpse or anything else.


_____________________________

DW:U BalanceMod v0.9 (extended TechTree)
compatible with DW:U Extended, StarTrek and XPanded

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3624576

(in reply to Shark7)
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