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Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 9:54:13 AM   
Joe D.


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Playing as the Axis in Race to Bastogne, I noticed my units wouldn't exit the map.
And in several other scenarios from either side in both BftB and HttR, I noticed that the presence of any enemy unit -- no matter how small -- would deprive my units of occupying their objective and not gaining any VPs from it.

Has anyone else noticed this under the latest official patch?

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 10:09:10 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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I think it's always been the case that you have to completely control the exit point and approaches to be able to exit units, no, Joe? There have been many postings about perceived problems with that, over the years. I just played through Elasson Reargaurd many times and it was always necessary to make sure the exit was clear. I had 2 Bns parked on it and the approach of one company to within 500 metres was enough to halt exit efforts. I also got a message once that I didn't understand - something like '2 Pz Div is not strong enough to fulfil its exit order'. But it did go on to exit happily enough. As ever, to determine whether it's a coding issue I guess you would have to provide saves from before, and maybe after, otherwise difficult to gauge exactly what's going on. Someone in here might know what exactly the exit control conditions are though. I don't...

< Message edited by phoenix -- 7/16/2014 11:09:32 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 10:56:51 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I think it's always been the case that you have to completely control the exit point and approaches to be able to exit units ...


I had the entire Lehr battle group sitting on the exit while it stretched along a route just NW of Bastogne without a single Allied unit in sight.
If that isn't complete control, I don't know what is.


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Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 11:24:55 AM   
Arjuna


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Have you tried saving the game, surrendering and then checking to see if there is an actual enemy there. You may not have detected them.

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 12:27:19 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Have you tried saving the game, surrendering and then checking to see if there is an actual enemy there. You may not have detected them.


Would you believe that after surrendering and then enlarging the area I discovered that one solitary and very depleted Allied engineer unit -- with 1 deuce and a half and 1 M1 .30 cal -- held up the exit of no less than 30 Axis units composed of everything from armor to arty.

I think there's a direct correlation between exiting and occupying both being prevented by the presence of limited enemy units.


_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 2:27:15 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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No doubt you've read that account of the single soviet tank holding up an entire German division for two days, Joe? It's a good read. It's in that compilation 'Small Unit Actions' published by DOA, amongst other places. But that was a tank. I wonder that your armour couldn't knock out the halftrack. But maybe they were in column and you hadn't ticked 'attacks', thus limiting their options?

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 5:17:07 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

No doubt you've read that account of the single soviet tank holding up an entire German division for two days, Joe? It's a good read. It's in that compilation 'Small Unit Actions' published by DOA, amongst other places. But that was a tank. I wonder that your armour couldn't knock out the halftrack. But maybe they were in column and you hadn't ticked 'attacks', thus limiting their options?


There's no armor on a deuce and a half: it's a 2 1/2 ton truck.
And I don't think a single M1 is going to stop Panzer Lehr either; in fact, the Axis units were sitting on the exit point apparently shooting at the Engineers.


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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 5:20:09 PM   
wodin


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Not sure they will exit if in combat.

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 5:38:09 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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I think you're right, Jason, but why couldn't PzLehr take care of a single Eng unit? Like I asked, Joe - were they all strung out in column along the approach (limited firepower on the target) and had you ticked 'attack' on the Exit command, so that they had the option to mount an attack if necessary? If not then all that happens is that they follow your order - to Exit - but find that a condition isn't met allowing them to do so (they're engaged, perhaps)so they just sit there waiting for your next order, or the condition to be met of its own accord. I doubt in their exit formation that they could get many guns to bear on the obstruction without running up against the constraints of your original order. BUt if you had ticked 'attack' then they could pause the Exit order, deal with the threat by an attack then resume their exit.

Post a pic, Joe.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 7/16/2014 6:41:27 PM >

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 6:09:16 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Playing as the Axis in Race to Bastogne,
And in several other scenarios from either side in both BftB and HttR, I noticed that the presence of any enemy unit -- no matter how small -- would deprive my units of occupying their objective and not gaining any VPs from it.

Has anyone else noticed this under the latest official patch?

For more info about small units preventing the securing of an objective see here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3517890

This is the key section of the entire thread:


quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch


Edit: According to Dave there is an additional condition that players should be made aware of regarding hold-outs effecting control near a victory location... there is also an additional condition in that there is not enemy at the location of the objective - ie within 300m. IIRC I added this to prevent objectives flipping to achieved and then the force moving on leaving the enemy still at the objective.

So you need to dislodge the holdouts at least away from the proximity of the "flag"



< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 7/16/2014 7:15:12 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 6:21:53 PM   
dazkaz15


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In practice this means you have to detach a unit to patrol the objective, to ensure it is free from enemy units, if the flag does not flip to your side.

This would also be a good idea for any exit objectives as well, especially as there is no flag indicator on exit objectives to show you have ownership of it.
Maybe its something that could be added to Command Ops 2?

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 7/16/2014 7:22:12 PM >

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 6:48:23 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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Thanks for the Simovitch quote about the flags, Daz. I'd missed that. V useful. I'm sure that was what was going on for JoeD.

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/16/2014 10:50:29 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Not sure they will exit if in combat.


Well, combat ended with the destruction of the Allied unit, but Lehr still sat there for hours on end, as did another group near Roulette.
Has anyone been able to exit units under the latest official patch?
It doesn't seem to be working for me.

I have both Cmd Ops BftB and HttR with the required conversion packs.



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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 12:44:30 AM   
Arjuna


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Is this scenario being played with the latest patch ie 4.6.279? I did make changes to the disband assessment code that should lead to small units like that disbanding. 

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 1:03:56 AM   
BigDuke66


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On a different scenario exiting on an objective worked, I also had the clear the objective but then more and more units of the formations I ordered to exit actually did exit.
I'm not sure but do units still exit even when the maximum AP/AArm/Bomb. is reached?

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 1:26:56 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Is this scenario being played with the latest patch ie 4.6.279? I did make changes to the disband assessment code that should lead to small units like that disbanding. 


Yes, I'm running version 4.6.279 and the engineer unit didn't disband until sometime after 1 truck and 1 rifle was left. But even after it disbanded, none of my units ever exited the game at two separate points on the Western edge of the map.


_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 3:47:22 AM   
simovitch


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If you gave orders to the Division HQ then exiting will be problematic as the HQ tries to account for every attached unit.

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simovitch


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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 4:49:29 AM   
wodin


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This is the memoir it's from.

Panzer Operations by E Raus


BOOK
quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

No doubt you've read that account of the single soviet tank holding up an entire German division for two days, Joe? It's a good read. It's in that compilation 'Small Unit Actions' published by DOA, amongst other places. But that was a tank. I wonder that your armour couldn't knock out the halftrack. But maybe they were in column and you hadn't ticked 'attacks', thus limiting their options?



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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 9:40:51 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

If you gave orders to the Division HQ then exiting will be problematic as the HQ tries to account for every attached unit.


Since when has it been "problematic" for a division to follow the orders of its own HQ???
And it appears that every attached unit is at the exit point.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 19
RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 10:51:44 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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I've had no problems exiting, also in a different scenario. But I do reissue the orders if they don't get actioned within about half an hour. And in the case of exiting I have found that it's much quicker if you give orders to individual Bns. I believe (did I read this somewhere?) that the program will only exit to the required max.

I might play through Race for Bastogne again - it's a great scenario - but it will take me about a week to get as far as the exits, Joe. A week of real time, I mean.

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 11:18:40 AM   
Fred Sanford

 

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Including the bases?
Have you tried toggling the "stragglers" check box?

Also- you can exit units in excess of the VP requirements, but you'll get no more than the max points, regardless of how much extra you exit.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

If you gave orders to the Division HQ then exiting will be problematic as the HQ tries to account for every attached unit.


Since when has it been "problematic" for a division to follow the orders of its own HQ???
And it appears that every attached unit is at the exit point.




< Message edited by Fred Sanford -- 7/17/2014 12:20:00 PM >

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 11:49:22 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

... I might play through Race for Bastogne again - it's a great scenario - but it will take me about a week to get as far as the exits, Joe. A week of real time, I mean.


Well, I won't hold my breath waiting for you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fred Sanford

Including the bases?
Have you tried toggling the "stragglers" check box? ...


No, but I never had to do that prior to this latest patch.
Of course, I never ran this game under Win 8.1 before either.
Hmmm ... maybe I need to choose a different compatibility mode under the new patch?


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Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 5:25:12 PM   
dazkaz15


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When giving exit orders Joe, to ensure they exit in a speedy manor split the Division up.

Give exit orders to each Bn HQ.
Detach the Base from the Regiment HQ and give them both individual orders to exit.
Artillery should also be given individual orders to exit, and also any other large units, like the Division base.

There are two reasons for this.
The first is that large formations, like artillery, and depots, pick up LOS from enemy units a long way away, because of their abstracted road column length.
This is a limitation of the game engine, and is unlikely to be changed before Command Ops 2.

The second is because of the code that Dave put into the Depots, and also Regimental and above HQ's to prevent them getting to close to enemy units.

Maybe before the patch when you gave the order to Division to exit, and you had no problems, it was because everything was in your favour, and there were no enemy anywhere near the route to the exit, or the exit itself.

I have had no problem exiting units since the latest update, although I only have limited experience of it from Elasson Rear-guard scenario, as I haven't had much time to play since the update.
I am running windows 7, but I can't imagine that you running windows 8 would make any difference in this matter.

If you could provide some screen shots, and more into about the order you gave, and when you gave it, that might help us to help you with the problem.

I have seen a unit lockup at Bn level since the update.
Like Peter said, the solution is to monitor the orders you give, and re issue them if you see they are not being carried out within a certain period of time, which can be assessed by the command delay in the command tab.
Until more bug reports are submitted on these lockups, there is not much that can be done about them.
I didn't have time to submit the one I experienced.

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 6:10:23 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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So you had a shot at Elasson, Daz? Interesting scenario, I think. I've found you can't get a total vic by just sneaking all Axis units past the defenders (you can do this - as discussed - quite easily.) But the most I've ever got by sneaking past is a marginal vic. I get this despite having 100VPs at scenario end (and you have to watch when the end arrives as the scenario terminates automatically when you exit all). It's only a marginal vic because the Allies can get nearly 80 points just from sitting on all those little objectives, crossings etc that you have waltzed past! That's a nice set up (though it does lead to the Allies ignoring you as you file down the map edge - a little ahistorical, perhaps). The whole scenario is, I think, a little ahistorical the way the VPs are set up (which is nice, because it gives both sides options they didn't have in RL), in that it allows you to choose to exploit defensive weaknesses in ways that the Axis wouldn't have been able to in RL, and didn't. I think - to force the Axis into a more historical approach (ie not just sneaking down the western edge of the map)- that a nice mod would be to give both sides a more equal set of objectives and points. Basically, giving the Axis roughly the same points distribution as the Allies would mean there would more likely be a fight for the crossings at the top of the map. What do you think?

Good tips on exiting. Thanks.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 7/17/2014 7:11:44 PM >

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RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 7/17/2014 6:32:46 PM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

When giving exit orders Joe, to ensure they exit in a speedy manor split the Division up.

Give exit orders to each Bn HQ.
Detach the Base from the Regiment HQ and give them both individual orders to exit.
Artillery should also be given individual orders to exit, and also any other large units, like the Division base.

There are two reasons for this.
The first is that large formations, like artillery, and depots, pick up LOS from enemy units a long way away, because of their abstracted road column length.
This is a limitation of the game engine, and is unlikely to be changed before Command Ops 2.

The second is because of the code that Dave put into the Depots, and also Regimental and above HQ's to prevent them getting to close to enemy units.

Maybe before the patch when you gave the order to Division to exit, and you had no problems, it was because everything was in your favour, and there were no enemy anywhere near the route to the exit, or the exit itself.

I have had no problem exiting units since the latest update, although I only have limited experience of it from Elasson Rear-guard scenario, as I haven't had much time to play since the update.
I am running windows 7, but I can't imagine that you running windows 8 would make any difference in this matter.

If you could provide some screen shots, and more into about the order you gave, and when you gave it, that might help us to help you with the problem ...


I had sent a save to Dave.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 25
RE: Panzer Lehr just sits there - 8/4/2014 8:04:41 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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So I played it through, Joe, and exited 2 KGs without any problems or delays. The exit was unguarded and I gave the orders at KG level, but they were small KGs - more like pumped up Bns, really. I agree, as I said earlier, that it's best not to give exit orders to a whole division.

(in reply to Joe D.)
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