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RE: Lopsided CV battles

 
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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 12:35:50 PM   
spence

 

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Do you? As on December 6th, 1941 how many bomb and torpedo hits had IJN flyers scored against warships? In port? Underway at sea?

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Post #: 31
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 12:45:50 PM   
Erkki


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Do you? As on December 6th, 1941 how many bomb and torpedo hits had IJN flyers scored against warships? In port? Underway at sea?


Please re-read. How many had the British... Before they did?

Swordfish, Albacore and Wildebeest are awful planes in the games because, duh, they were awful planes. Your points basically are that X should be N because something happened historically. What happened historically in any battle may or may not be a typical average or median results. Sample sizes for naval battles especially are very low and hardware quality in them was not the only factor.

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Post #: 32
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 1:03:59 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry



Sure you can. Just go into your save directory and cut and paste the combat report from the action here. Lots of good text hints in that. Don't edit it for brevity, there's some tasty tidbits of clarity in there.


There's about 10,000 of those files and I'm not searching through all that. Can they be eliminated after a game?


It's pretty straightforward. You just want the CombatReport.txt with the relevant date in your save game folder. For example, my last PBEM turn's releveant combat report is "combatreport_421026". Just find that and it should be viewable in any word or notebook-type program.

Irrelevant save files can certainly be eliminated after a game. The "combatreport_421026" I used here will be written over the next time I play an October 26, 1942 game also.

My recommendation is to go into the save directory and just scroll (quickly) down the different save files until you get to the combat reports per se. Then you can identify the latest one for cutting and pasting here.

Good luck.

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Post #: 33
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 1:07:38 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013
As was stated earlier in this posting as well, Detailed info is a lot more difficult to get than you seem to realize.


I don´t think it is that difficult, but YMMV.

Anyways, there is a general rule to data analysis: S*it in, s*it out.

It is your decision to do the work and provide sufficient data for a conclusive analysis - or not. Just don´t expect any valuable responses to your questions in case you don´t.

quote:

Anyone else ever have this issue?


As far as I am concerned, no, I don´t have this issue. Except if I made a mistake, on either strategic or tactical level, or was outsmarted by my opponent. Happens.

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Post #: 34
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 1:13:38 PM   
Erkki


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Or just sort the files by date, windows remembers it for the folder. Ta-daa: the latest save, sign reports, combat reports and ops reports are always on the top or bottom.

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Post #: 35
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 1:56:16 PM   
Insano

 

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In the absence of information my best guess is that the OP dive bombers were not set at dive bombing altitude. This means any hits scored (none) against a warship maneuvering at speed would be a fluke

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Post #: 36
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 3:15:39 PM   
Feinder


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If you don't remember the date of the battle, in order to retrieve the .txt file you can...
a. Probably just sort by size: the big battles are going to generate larger files.
b. Look on the ships sunk screen, it'll tell you the data that your CV(s) were sunk, then pull back the .txt file for that date.

-F-

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Post #: 37
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 5:15:40 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Do you? As on December 6th, 1941 how many bomb and torpedo hits had IJN flyers scored against warships? In port? Underway at sea?


Those poor dumb Japanese. Obviously they should have prepared better.



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Post #: 38
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 5:24:53 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

As mentioned, lopsided CV battles didn't happen until 1944.

Although the Japanese were the first to create a powerful air striking force in their First Air Fleet/Kido Butai they were little better prepared to conduct a carrier vs carrier battle than their US adversaries: simply because no such battle had ever been fought by anyone until Coral Sea. At that battle neither the Japanese nor the Americans displayed any particular acumen. Its ending as a Japanese tactical victory was hardly a certainty when the IJN strike aircraft left the scene of their attack on the US CVs (the Lexington was making 20 kts when the fuel vapor explosion overtook it).


Likewise the Japanese "first team" can hardly claim to have showed "how it's done" at Midway.
Experience gained fighting obsolete aircraft with lousy pilots while bombing nearly defenseless cities doesn't count much in CV battles. It's CAP did well for a while against American ineptitude but the fact remains that at the moment that those SBDs smashed the KB the number of Japanese strike aircraft launched at the American TFs was precisely ZERO. The Hiryu's two subsequent strikes were well done except that only a few of the participating a/c were ever going to be available to strike again.

The remaining CV battles of 1942, resulted in pretty even damage:

1 US CV, Hornet, sunk
USS Enterprise damaged severely twice
vs
1 IJN CVL, Ryujo, sunk
CV HIJMS Shokaku damaged severely
CVL HIJMS Zuiho damaged

(IJN subs did well but their contributions did not contribute to the CV battles directly: and six of them died in the Solomons).

Lopsided battles between CVs really have no historical basis.



The thing to take away from this is that the first carrier battle in history took place in May 1942. There was training and doctrine on both sides but basically the Coral Sea and three other carrier actions in 1942 were fought in the blind as far as experience goes. Surface battles were built on hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge but not carrier battles. Both sides had their advantages and failings and any of those battles could have gone in any direction. By 1943 both sides had gained valuable experience. Experience that really could only benefit the side that could produce better ships and aircraft quicker. We know how that ended up.


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Post #: 39
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 6:12:44 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?


The game doesn't "like" to be minimized., but it can be. Alt+Tab will minimize the game, allowing access to a paint program to paste screen shots captured with the print screen button.

It's re-maximizing that the game doesn't like and it shakes itself out graphically in fits and starts until it properly restores the screen display.

This is why I play in windows mode (start 'maximised'). I set the screen resolution so that the Windows task bar is visible at the bottom of the screen. I can just click on other programs, or on AE to change back. Without all the 'full screen' mode stuff that goes on there is no problem switching back and forth.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 6:32:55 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

I have experienced a total failure in a CV battle so one sided it was difficult to believe. All vessels and aircraft are properly configured and attacked their mark. The problem is they never put a scratch on any IJN vessels while the Japanese air strike innihalated my entire CV TF, all this despite me launching twice as many Aircraft than he did. After chaulking it up to an anomaly, I continued play only to have the exact same thing occur a second time some time later. Not a bloody scratch on his futuristic fleet while mine was wiped out to the ship. Anyone else ever have this issue?



Question(s)

did you watch the combat replay?

If so:

did you see alot of attacks by single planes?

did AA hit any of the bombers.

did the CAP score much on said bombers?


Thx



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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:09:27 PM   
gunny3013

 

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Weather was not a factor. All DB's were set to 10,000 ft and all TB's were set to 5,000 ft. Training was prioritized to Naval Search and Naval Attack. Standard Operating Proceedure and successful in every other game. The flak barely touched any of my aircraft. In fact he look heavier flak losses than I did and I had far more aircraft than he did. I had to watch every single plane miss every ship they attempted to hit while he watched his planes destroy every ship they targeted. This was unique and so incredible as to not be believed and if you had told me he had futuristic space shields I would have been compelled to believe you based on the evidence before me. Once was a fuke, the second time it happened all I could mumble was, "Oh hell no!"

< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 7/8/2014 10:01:45 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:30:25 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013
Training was prioritized to Naval Search and Naval Attack.


This is meaningless. What training was emphasized / prioritized / de-emphasized, etc. is irrelevant. What their achieved skills were with this training program is what is relevant.

gunny3013, no offense, but it doesn't look like you're looking for specific help on your specific problem. You've not given us enough cogent and tangible information for us to help you. I've asked you (and given you instructions) for combat replay text, a screenshot or any other information from your game and you've not delivered. I can't help you if you can't produce the supportive information we need.

I'm done here. If you want my help, PM me with these things I've requested and I'll be glad to help. I can't sit around and cry about what a victim you were of this or that code problem if it's not so.

Cheers.

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Post #: 43
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:40:23 PM   
gunny3013

 

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Accidental duplicate post deleted.

< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 7/8/2014 9:44:42 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:41:42 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

All DB's were set to 10,000 ft and all TB's were set to 5,000 ft. Training was prioritized to Naval Search and Naval Attack. Standard Operating Proceedure and successful in every other game. The flak barely touched any of my aircraft. In fact he look heavier flak losses than I did and I had far more aircraft than he did. I had to watch every single plane miss every ship they attempted to hit while he watched his planes destroy every ship they targeted. This was unique and so incredible as to not be believed and if you had told me he had futuristic space shields I would have been compelled to believe you based on the evidence before me. Once was a fuke, the second time it happened all I could mumble was, "Oh hell no!"



By barely touched you mean how many? 2,3,4?

What about the other questions?

Thx


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Post #: 45
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:43:44 PM   
Erkki


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Weather over target? Navb and navt skills of attacking crews? How many attacks on small fast escorts?

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Post #: 46
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:47:40 PM   
gunny3013

 

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It's real easy to get the gist of what I mean. A blind man can see it in a minute. If you can't this might not be the topic for you.

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Post #: 47
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:50:59 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

All DB's were set to 10,000 ft and all TB's were set to 5,000 ft. Training was prioritized to Naval Search and Naval Attack. Standard Operating Proceedure and successful in every other game. The flak barely touched any of my aircraft. In fact he look heavier flak losses than I did and I had far more aircraft than he did. I had to watch every single plane miss every ship they attempted to hit while he watched his planes destroy every ship they targeted. This was unique and so incredible as to not be believed and if you had told me he had futuristic space shields I would have been compelled to believe you based on the evidence before me. Once was a fuke, the second time it happened all I could mumble was, "Oh hell no!"



By barely touched you mean how many? 2,3,4?

What about the other questions?

Thx




whoops.

never mind.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3576320&mpage=1&key=�




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Post #: 48
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 8:52:10 PM   
Cribtop


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Without a combat report we can't really answer, but it sounds possible that weather was the factor from what you say. If you attacked in storms and he did in clear that can end up very lopsided.

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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 9:05:01 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

whoops.

never mind.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3576320&mpage=1&key=�





Thanks for the link Nik. After the 10th incoherent reply, still without any hard data, this somehow looked familiar.

I am outta here...

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Post #: 50
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 9:05:41 PM   
gunny3013

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

All DB's were set to 10,000 ft and all TB's were set to 5,000 ft. Training was prioritized to Naval Search and Naval Attack. Standard Operating Proceedure and successful in every other game. The flak barely touched any of my aircraft. In fact he look heavier flak losses than I did and I had far more aircraft than he did. I had to watch every single plane miss every ship they attempted to hit while he watched his planes destroy every ship they targeted. This was unique and so incredible as to not be believed and if you had told me he had futuristic space shields I would have been compelled to believe you based on the evidence before me. Once was a fuke, the second time it happened all I could mumble was, "Oh hell no!"



By barely touched you mean how many? 2,3,4?

What about the other questions?

Thx




whoops.

never mind.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3576320&mpage=1&key=?






Always someone willing to take anything they can to the gutter, way to go Nikademus, way to go!

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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 9:07:13 PM   
gunny3013

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Without a combat report we can't really answer, but it sounds possible that weather was the factor from what you say. If you attacked in storms and he did in clear that can end up very lopsided.


No weather was not a factor at all.

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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 9:08:16 PM   
gunny3013

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

whoops.

never mind.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3576320&mpage=1&key=�





Thanks for the link Nik. After the 10th incoherent reply, still without any hard data, this somehow looked familiar.

I am outta here...


I would be thrilled if you would depart and never ever respond to any of my posts again. Thank You.

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Post #: 53
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/8/2014 9:18:11 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

whoops.

never mind.



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3576320&mpage=1&key=�





Thanks for the link Nik. After the 10th incoherent reply, still without any hard data, this somehow looked familiar.

I am outta here...



NP. I gave the OP the benie of a doubt because I've been gathering some data. His one answer and lack of answers though didn't track so I got suspicious. Amazing what a simple name click will do. Research rocks!



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Post #: 54
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/9/2014 8:21:26 AM   
tk208

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

My PC will not allow access to any other program while the game is running and print screen simply doesn't give very much information. Outside of that I'm not skilled in the program enough to post any other information. Sorry

I can tell you that -weather- had no impact or effect and we both took a single swing at each other in both circumstances. The period was early and mid 42.

It's not that I lost my whole fleet that matters, it's that he walked away without a scratch both times. Oh, and the game is VS. a live opponent.

In about a half dozen other "live" games, both sides took hits although the USN took the brunt, in this one I have never stood a chance. Hate to ask this but... is there a way to minipulate the program?


The game doesn't "like" to be minimized., but it can be. Alt+Tab will minimize the game, allowing access to a paint program to paste screen shots captured with the print screen button.

It's re-maximizing that the game doesn't like and it shakes itself out graphically in fits and starts until it properly restores the screen display.


This.

You can reduce the averse effect of re-maximizing by closing all ingame screens before alt-tabbing out but I still would not reccommend to do it more than once per session, and even then you might notice graphical artefacts.

Personally I save and reload. It is a hassle but there is only so much you can do with a source code this old.



@gunny3013: You can access op/combat/intel reports through the savegame folder. If you have the -archive switch in your command line then you can access all reports ever generated by the game by acessing the save/archive folder. For screenshots there are a couple of freeware programs that allow you to take screenshots without exiting a program.

As has been stated a couple of times in this thread already, providing very detailed ingame data and additional information about the battle itself, as well as the battles´ context and preface, is essential if you want to get any helpful analysis from the forums. If not you all you will get is opinionated guesswork and general statements.

It is absolutely possible to fight a CV battle to a draw against the IJN - even very early in the war, with luck even win. But you have to do your homework and engage from a position of advantage, what that is exactly depends on the situation.


As was stated earlier in this posting as well, Detailed info is a lot more difficult to get than you seem to realize.

...to heck with a draw or a victory! I would have settled for a single hit! 4 CV's sunk and all four flew against their IJN opponents and came up ZILCH! not a bloody scratch! Nada! couldn't even hit a cargo vessel. All the while he wipes out my entire fleet in one single air strike! Something is a miss.

Remember in AI games and games against other opponents my CV's aren't heroic or anything but they can at least score a few hits with no problem. It's just this one player's CV's that seems to have star trek shields to maximum...


Its not hard to find the info!

Simply go to the SAVE folder in your AE directory change folder options to "detail" or "list" then click the date column to find the latest combat report them copy and paste the contents here!

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 55
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/9/2014 8:13:01 PM   
gunny3013

 

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Thanks everyone for your assistance.

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Post #: 56
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/9/2014 10:04:27 PM   
Dili

 

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Wasting people time.

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RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/10/2014 7:59:58 AM   
1275psi

 

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dive bombers at 10000 feet

probably did not dive


thats my theory

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Post #: 58
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/10/2014 8:54:05 AM   
Encircled


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Got to admit that I thought that DB had to be over 11,000 feet to dive bomb.

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Post #: 59
RE: Lopsided CV battles - 7/10/2014 9:03:04 AM   
koniu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Got to admit that I thought that DB had to be over 11,000 feet to dive bomb.

With all my knowledge and experience. DB dive when set between 10k-15k (including 10k and 15k)

< Message edited by koniu -- 7/10/2014 10:02:49 AM >


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