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RE: Best Race at start?

 
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RE: Best Race at start? - 7/7/2014 9:24:43 AM   
Keston


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Joined: 5/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: buglepong

Losing games is super hard though, because the AI cannot effect planetary invasion.


Maybe they can't, but nonetheless they do, and do it a lot, the Gizureans and Riktoh invading and counter-invading so their Empire influence zones looked like they had the pox, and continuing to do so after I stepped in to try to clean up that situation by painting the map red, which has included a number of invasions with more than 2 sides involved.

The frequent invasions between them may be attributed partly to the often modest garrisons they had on their planets after many years of war. They are Also their troop qualities are not that different, so both sides are able to muster adequate invasions. That the Gizurean Hive is Quite Aggressive and Cautious while the Riktoh are Very Passive but Quite Reckless likely has something to do with the situation I found, as well as that they are both Quite Stupid.

Maybe the problem is that you defend your planets too well. Consider leaving a weak garrison to set a trap once you land reinforcements to crush their landing forces.


< Message edited by Keston -- 7/8/2014 1:06:53 AM >

(in reply to buglepong)
Post #: 61
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/7/2014 9:26:03 AM   
DeadlyShoe


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you don't have to be wiped out to lose the game. The AI is more than capable of reaching their win conditions.

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 62
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/7/2014 9:43:48 AM   
Keston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

....Usually when I am looking to add/remove something, I look at the lore and the victory conditions, and try to do something that would fit that race.


Sounds like a good approach to enriching the game and player experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

For example, I removed the Gizuraens permanent leader as, VCs aside, the Gizureans are specifically mentioned to be a divided and tribal bunch. As a race their OPness is a three-legged stool with the permanent leader as one leg (on top of this their leader starts with 4 really good skills), high growth rates as the second leg, and the ship maintenance bonus as a third leg.


What? What is wrong with the bug god-queen mother (or whatever title you please) having a very long natural lifespan that goes beyond the game's duration?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Though I still like the idea of permanent leaders so, for now, I gave it to the Zenox. Their research took a major hit when I nerfed Technocracy (they are behind Kaidians and Humans), and I really could not think of anything else to add to them without making them too similar to another race.


And their lore is ... a cyborg scientist-administrator seized imperial power?

A zeal for balancing is appropriate in a competitive game that is supposed to be fair to all players (though balance only has meaning with given starting conditions and consistent rules and is roughly confirmed with statistical analysis). Examples would be handicapping of races or balancing the pricing of "purchased" attributes or items. It is a daring ambition.

Attempts at rough leveling in a very sophisticated game seem procrustean here. This topic is about the "best" starting races, not about how to change the game to ensure none can be best.

I may be wrong, but I understand there are already dynamics among the empires that react negatively to amassing power, aggressive expansion, etc. and this is a natural check. If one race becomes much more advanced technically, its tech may be stolen or copied from captured ships. That is another check. Temples, ancient ships and other fun surprises across the galaxy can tip the balance at times and certainly mix things up.

Handicapping victory conditions is a good way to make things fair in multiplayer without unsettling the gameplay, as well as to add the right flavor and incentives.

quote:


I think the best way to do this would be to create some basically "blank" races with lets say one bonus.
Equalizing Pop Growth across all Blank races, except for the Race intended to test the efficacy of Pop Growth.


Now, this kind of experimentation I can appreciate as useful for players to understand how the mechanics work and that they work consistently.

quote:


Best we can probably hope to do is buff the weaker races some and nerf the stronger races some, probably looking at it on a case-by-case basis. It wont get perfect balance, but a reduction in strength differences between the strongest and weakest races would be enough to make me happy.


No, the best most of us can hope is that needless MMORPG-style nerfing and buffing does not happen, but that instead bugs are addressed and the mechanics, events, and other aspects of each race are richly and effectively implemented.

Which is not to say that mods can't change whatever they wish, but we need to be able to trust the essential stability and continuity of the basic Universe (and for me Extended along with that, which does not disturb the existing races).

(in reply to Nanaki)
Post #: 63
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/7/2014 11:26:32 AM   
Nanaki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston
What? What is wrong with the bug god-queen mother (or whatever title you please) having a very long natural lifespan that goes beyond the game's duration?


It is too overpowered when combined with the Gizureans other perks, which include the highest growth race of any race in the galaxy and the highest ship maintenance bonus. They are considered only second to the Quameno and their 90% research bonus. As for lore justification, they are specifically referred to as having common inter-tribal warfare, which sort of runs against the idea of having a stable government under one eternal leader.

quote:


And their lore is ... a cyborg scientist-administrator seized imperial power?


It was either them or the Shandar. The Zenox are referred to as 'ancient', while the Shandar are specifically mentioned as having lifespans measured in the centuries. In retrospect, probably would have fit the Shandar better, but at the time I already figured out how to tweak the Shandar and was having a bit of a designer's block with the Zenox, as there was very little I can do without making them too similar to other races, and unfortunate side effect of ship maintenance being the most common bonus in the game (6 races).

quote:


I may be wrong, but I understand there are already dynamics among the empires that react negatively to amassing power, aggressive expansion, etc. and this is a natural check. If one race becomes much more advanced technically, its tech may be stolen or copied from captured ships. That is another check. Temples, ancient ships and other fun surprises across the galaxy can tip the balance at times and certainly mix things up.


There are checks, but they are not very effective. Infact, the AI is rather reluctant to declare war on a powerful race, and generally is not smart enough to form alliance blocs against large races.

quote:


No, the best most of us can hope is that needless MMORPG-style nerfing and buffing does not happen, but that instead bugs are addressed and the mechanics, events, and other aspects of each race are richly and effectively implemented.


The mistake MMORPGs make is that they tend to go overboard, and there is generally a poor understanding on how different changes interact with eachother.

_____________________________

I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 64
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/7/2014 11:39:57 PM   
DeadlyShoe


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the problem with MMO nerfing is that people are committed to their characters. there's no such problem in distant worlds.

better balance is always inherently good because it improves player choice, especially for players who like playing optimally.

(in reply to Nanaki)
Post #: 65
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/8/2014 6:09:22 AM   
buglepong

 

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Joined: 4/12/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

you don't have to be wiped out to lose the game. The AI is more than capable of reaching their win conditions.


With player intervention? Highly unlikely unless you severely stack starting conditions against the player

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 66
RE: Best Race at start? - 7/8/2014 1:58:50 PM   
Aeson

 

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quote:

With player intervention? Highly unlikely unless you severely stack starting conditions against the player

It really depends on what the victory conditions are. Things like 'most espionage missions' or 'most time spent at war' are things which are rather difficult to dislodge someone from, especially if it's a species that gets extra agents or is aggressive and incautious. Similarly, 'have the most ships in the galaxy' is something that the player might not necessarily want to be in the running for, as there's a clear economic cost to entering that race and having lots of ships isn't necessarily better than having a smaller fleet, if you make up for it in ship quality or in asset utilization, and it's easier for a human to manage a smaller fleet than a huge fleet anyways.

(in reply to buglepong)
Post #: 67
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