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RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 12:40:57 AM   
buglepong

 

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Quameno is easy mode


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Post #: 31
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 12:42:54 AM   
Airpower

 

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Dude if you don't like the strategy don't use it. Enjoy your refueling ships. I don't care.

I'm posting this information for the people who want to hear new techniques. You're not one of them. I get it. Goodbye.

(in reply to buglepong)
Post #: 32
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 12:44:48 AM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Airpower

Yeah it's definitely broken. My hope is that when the Dev team sees this, they'll make the suggested fix (disallow commerce centers on star bases) and not do anything heavy-handed that would break other aspects of star base utility (specifically as fleet refueling stations).


I would rather restrict mining components to mining stations and mining ships, but your idea may work better. I like to throw a commerce center on my bases (SB or DB) and use them in lieu of small space ports. No construction or repair, but trade and storage. Maybe I just think that works, but that's how I play dammit!

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Post #: 33
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:02:04 AM   
Airpower

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

I would rather restrict mining components to mining stations and mining ships, but your idea may work better. I like to throw a commerce center on my bases (SB or DB) and use them in lieu of small space ports. No construction or repair, but trade and storage. Maybe I just think that works, but that's how I play dammit!


That's an interesting point... I never thought about that application for star bases.

Your suggested fix would end combat ships as refuelers, and also end star bases as clustered hydrogen farms.

I guess that would still leave options though. Mainly, I'd have to park 3-4 resupply ships with large cargo bays in a gas cloud, and surround them with 3-4 defensive bases. It'd make resupply ships a little more useful at least!

The option I like the most though is the solar tanker concept. But the energy-to-fuel device is so broken right now, that concept has no place in actual gameplay.

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 34
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:06:06 AM   
Retreat1970


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Well lets not get hasty. Just as long as we can restrict the resource gathering somehow. I like your idea of combat ship refueling. I'm trying a new game with it now. Also we could probably mod the energy-to-fuel device somehow. I can look into it.

(in reply to Airpower)
Post #: 35
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:24:26 AM   
buglepong

 

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Wow why so hurt

Of course optimal techniques only work when you micro stuff to death, especially in this game cos the ai behaviour is so frsutrating

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Post #: 36
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:44:33 AM   
Spidey


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@ Bungle

He's probably a bit frustrated because he's researching stuff in the game that the rest of us didn't actually know while you're sitting in your armchair and shouting "lol, u be n00b on easy mode!!" and stuff.


@ Airpower

Some really nice work here, but I'm thinking it probably would be better to simply make any station with mining equipment on it block off any future mining capable stations, as opposed to blocking off commerce centers on star bases. As for resupply ships, they're really more useful during the mid-game when you need something to support long distance operations and lack tech to get by without. Once your military ships end up with a range of 18 sectors, you can actually get by just fine with a single refueling base that's a sector and a half away.

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Post #: 37
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:53:28 AM   
Airpower

 

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Hi Spidey.

Yeah, after reading Retreat's use for star bases with commerce centers, I'm prone to agree with you.

If a mining star base locks out future star bases and mining bases, it will fix this exploit. But as a side effect, it will remove the strategy of clustering multiple gas mining star ports in a gas cloud, to act as a defensible, large-scale refueling point / staging area near enemy space.

That's not a killer though I guess. It would be just as easy to crank out multiple small, unarmed/unshielded resupply ships and park them next to each other in a nebula, protected by a fleet or stationary defensive bases.

As long as there's at least one way to allow a single resource to be multi-mined for gas, I'll be happy with whatever fix they decide on.

By the way, I've lurked here for a while, and have always been impressed with your posts. Nice to talk to you!

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Post #: 38
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 2:38:44 AM   
buglepong

 

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Well of course. He is expecting his strategy to play with 10 ship fleets, naturally someone will say something about that

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Post #: 39
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 2:45:01 AM   
Airpower

 

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Apparently you aren't reading. I already addressed fleet size.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3649902

< Message edited by Airpower -- 7/4/2014 3:49:24 AM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 3:37:33 AM   
Spidey


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I'm glad you like my posts, though I must admit to having my share of somewhat immature comments. But it seems like, at least to me, that DW actually helps keep my temper under control. Being angry simply isn't the right frame of mind for playing this game. It leads to rushed decisions and it won't get stuff done faster anyway.

Anyway, ship-based mining gear isn't blocked by other ships, so you could conceivably just build a bunch of state-based non-resupply gas mining ships and park them in a convenient fuel cloud. That would give you multi-mining ships with great mobility and no annoying special features. The main problem with that is cargo management, I suppose, which means you have to target pure sources of your fuel type.

Or, as you say, you could build relatively mobile resupply ships and horde them in a convenient cloud, but then you'll need to invest in defenses, since they're not exactly capable of fleeing. And having to build defenses or provide a defensive fleet (or invest in enough armaments that they can take care of themselves) is an annoying resource hog, isn't it?

The self-refueling fleet idea is nice but we're still talking about using a good deal of space on those fleets for something that doesn't really help killing other ships. So yeah, I'm not sure there's really any optimal way of getting this done, as it stands. I'd probably be inclined to use smaller fuel capacities on my military ships and then spread high capacity gas mining stations far and wide. But having half a dozen gas mining ships in a gas cloud really does sound like a nice extra touch to provide some extra support for long distance operations.

(in reply to Airpower)
Post #: 41
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 3:53:17 AM   
Spidey


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@ Bungle

My fleet size is usually 8-12. Occasionally I supersize to 16-18, but for the most part I'd rather just throw in a second fleet and use them independently. The ships I use start out at size 300 and grow to size 500'ish or so. Maybe 550 if I push it a bit. What exactly can stand against it? Actually, plenty of things can if I simply throw them into the fray, but I don't. I move them around so they don't get swamped under 50 enemy ships. And then 12 ships is plenty to take out a few stragglers until the giant mass of enemy ships isn't so giant anymore.

And it's not really the number of ships that matters but how destructive they are. 40 size 200 ships or 10 size 800 ships, what difference does it make? Except the big ships have a lot more staying power and warp drives can keep them mobile enough to make up for limited cruise speed.

Edit: And just as an FYI, I tend to play hard or very hard with normal pirates and critters, big galaxies, expensive research. I don't know if that qualifies as easy mode.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 7/4/2014 4:57:29 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 3:58:59 AM   
Airpower

 

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The "every ship is a tanker" concept is just one way to use this technique. In the games where I've used it, I've always had a large size/tech lead over the rest of the galaxy that the battles weren't nail-biting affairs. The time wasted flying to/from a gas station was more detrimental to the overall war effort than the loss of a little offensive power in any particular engagement.

To me, the bottom line is that if you design a refueling ship - let's say a dedicated one that can support a 50-ship fleet for 1000 fuel apice, including 50 docking bays - you make the ship perform better by changing the ship class from "Resupply Ship" to any other combat class. An Escort class tanker can hold 50k fuel, dock 50 ships, gather gas at the same rate as a Resupply ship. The only difference is that it doesn't need 30 seconds to deploy, and can refuel other ships at any location, rather than having to be parked at a gas giant or cloud first. It can also flee instantly upon seeing hostile forces (especially with a gravity well projector on it).

Disregarding all other points, for this reason, I maintain that using the Resupply Ship design template is almost always a worse choice for a fuel tanker. My hope is that changes will be made to the Resupply class so that it comes to outperform other ship classes in the refueling role, like it's supposed to.

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Post #: 43
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 4:04:36 AM   
Airpower

 

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Oh also, Bungle, I've only owned the game for about 2 weeks now. What difficulty were you on after 12 days of game time?

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Post #: 44
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 7:05:47 AM   
buglepong

 

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Late game is usually a walk in the park. You can do anything at max tech level cos the ai is so unchallenging

Where it gets tough is early and a bit mid game. Especially on moderate to hard difficulty - things like like starting tech disadvantage, or bad starting system. i consider hard games as ones where you have to turtle until endgame cos the moment you peek out of your homeworld you get blasted. Needless to say that isnt fun, but its not impossible to win.

The settings I play on i consider moderate, i never have tech advantage for at least half the game. My standing navy is at least 100 ships at any time and during confrontations i can easily lose fleets of 30 ships - and the spaceport they were defending on one of my worlds.

So in my gameplay experience 50 ship fleets arent farfetched. Id i were to split them into discrete 10 ship units id need two keyboards just to hotkey them

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 45
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 8:58:00 AM   
Icemania


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Great post Airpower!

I'm in the very early stages of designing an AI Improvement Mod.

For the AI Mining Station Design Template I currently have 3 Mining Engines and 3 Luxury Extractors. Since that produces 90% of capacity I'll probably leave that as is. The AI Research Orders built have too many other priorities to bother with Mining Research.

For the AI Gas Mining Station Design Template I currently have 3 Gas Extractors and 3 Luxury Extractors. I'll reduce the Gas Extractors to 2 since the third adds nothing to Production.

For the AI Mining Ships I currently have 4 Cargo Bays, with the same logic you mentioned. They have some extra Engines to increase speed. However, if I make them too large, the AI will not build them e.g. until Size 300 is available. As their focus is Strategic Resources over Luxury Resources they have 2 Mining Engines / 2 Gas Extractors and 1 Luxury Extractor. I'll test now to see if Mining Engine #3 pushes the AI over the limit for early building.

I'm interested in your observations moving forward on Freighters ...

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/4/2014 10:28:16 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:02:00 PM   
feygan

 

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Some nice ideas on how to use fleets there and the bugbear of fuel. To be honest I have never really used the e2f device much as by that stage of the game fuel just isn't an issue and your fleets are strong enough that it is more of a mop up operation.

But I never did like the resupply ships, always felt they were underwhelming but seeing the data it becomes clear exactly why and how much so. I do like the idea of a fuel escort ship a lot and hadn't considered slapping those types of components into a military hull before. So kudos for the out of box thinking, I am wondering though just what sort of size do these ships become? I'm too lazy to fire up the game and test but can you give an example of your escort tanker ship to see what size it is with how much for components?

Sounds like the op is either a veteran of or destined to head towards Aurora.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 47
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:32:29 PM   
Jeeves


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Good data, thanks for taking the time to do this. Ignore the troll criticism...

Out to be added to the guide to guides thread.

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Airpower)
Post #: 48
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 1:39:24 PM   
Spidey


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@ Feygan

I've fiddled around with a military tanker design and I'm having a hard time getting it smaller than size 500 with mid-game tech, though of course one can compensate for lacking capacity with raw numbers. Having four ships with 5 cargo bays and 4 docking bays is hardly any different from one ship with 20 cargo bays and 16 docking bays. Truth be told they might be superior, since they'd be mining gas quite a lot faster. They'd cost more in maintenance, though.

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Post #: 49
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 2:15:24 PM   
Tormodino

 

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This is great stuff, Airpower. I'll definitely pay attention to what you wrote when I run my next custom design game.

As for how to limit bases, I think it would be best to put the limit at one extractor per location. Seems the least fiddly way to prevent this exploit.

Resupply ships are sadly not very useful for the AI, but have good utility for the player if you micro them. Doesn't defeat your points in the slightest. Some changes to how they work, like making them a lot more dangerous to fight when deployed, as well as less time spent roaming and more time spent acting as fuel depots covering the less

Your strategy of self-refuelling fleets would work really well if the resupply ships could play the part of the ship the others refuel from (not necessarily only resupply ships, but you get my point). They already dothis to an extent, but refueling while not deployed, having it use starbase cargo storage, as well as firing when deployed would adress quite a few of the issues you have observed.

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 50
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 2:21:01 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeeves
Out to be added to the guide to guides thread.

Done.

Suggest to all that the discussion should continue without any snark.

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Post #: 51
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/4/2014 4:50:05 PM   
jRides

 

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Preventing Commerce centres being built on star bases would mean if you wanted to avoid giving away resources for free you'd have to build a space port, which gets back into the whole decentralization thing again.

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RE: Resource mining and you - 7/5/2014 10:47:58 AM   
feelotraveller


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I have made a thread in the War Room on Cargo Capacity.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3650778&mpage=1&key=�

My findings are different to those of Airpower.

I think that the starbase thing is an exploit/bug. (Good find though!) If you build a mining base first you cannot build the starbase. You can build unlimited numbers of starbases (that's a bug?) and then one mining base, but then no more starbases...

It is an 'exploit' because the mining cap was introduced to counter precisely this situation having an unlimited extraction rate from a single source. I remember a previous version being patched so that the extraction rate from all bases at a single source was summed before being compared to the mining cap. Hopefully we will see that soon...

(in reply to jRides)
Post #: 53
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/5/2014 4:06:00 PM   
Airpower

 

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You're correct on my findings on cargo capacity being off. I'm gathering more data right now to figure out exactly how it works.

Sorry for posting some incorrect stuff... I'll clean it up (and link to your post, if that's okay).

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 54
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 3:43:40 AM   
feelotraveller


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Feel free to link to my post if it agrees with your findings.

The self refueling fleet is a great idea, and not one I would have tried. I'm not sure though that I will find much use for it. The space taken by the extractors+cargo bays makes for a weak combat ship, and special cases aside, I would prefer to send a resupply ship with a stronger fleet. Am I missing something?

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Post #: 55
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 3:57:25 AM   
Airpower

 

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No no, it completely disagrees with my findings, which is why I need to remove my original writeup on cargo space!

I'm doing some research right now that indicates the equation for actual cargo space may be more complicated than either of us thought. Will post numbers and findings once I'm done.

As far as the fleet refueling strategy, I'll grant you that it's largely dependent on your playstyle. If you don't like it, there's nothing saying you have to use it. It was just one solution I came up with to address the problems I was having with large numbers of late-game fleets that kept running out of fuel. I'm not suggesting that this should be used at every point in the game. I'm saying it's available for use if the situation warrants it. Just like with every strategy.

As for whether you're missing something regarding resupply ships, I guess that depends. In your experience, what advantages does a resupply ship have over an exact duplicate design that is set as a different ship class (Escort, Destroyer, Frigate, etc)? I can't think of any situation where a resupply ship class vessel would outperform a non-resupply class vessel in the refueling role.

I keep beating this point to death because I feel Resupply Ships need a buff. They're not competitive right now.

< Message edited by Airpower -- 7/6/2014 4:58:58 AM >

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RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 5:15:46 AM   
Aeson

 

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quote:

In your experience, what advantages does a resupply ship have over an exact duplicate design that is set as a different ship class (Escort, Destroyer, Frigate, etc)?

It can be much, much bigger. That's not an advantage in all cases, and you can certainly make up for it with multiple ships, but it's hard to say that one giant block of shields is worse than the same size worth of shield components spread over a bunch of smaller ships. Of course, that really goes to the point that the Resupply Ship is potentially more useful acting as a giant battleship/carrier/troop transport than in its intended role, despite sacrificing ~20% of its size to noncombat-related components.

There's also a slight advantage in it being more of a set-and-forget semi-mobile refueling point than the tanker-battleships are, and that the 100 size or so of a long-range scanner component is a rather trivial cost for a ship that can be well over 4000 size (this is more true earlier in the game when the ship sizes are more limited and ~100 size units for a long range scanner plus the static energy cost is a nontrivial addition to any ship that isn't huge or dedicated to carrying the scanner). Going along with the not-yet-late-game tech state, it's also not really a trivial decision to set aside enough space on a warship for refueling purposes if your ship sizes are still smallish, especially if your designs are relatively fuel-hungry.

Resupply ships keep the refueling capability in a single hard-to-destroy target that, if used in the intended role, mostly stays out of fights, while tanker-battleships put the refueling capacity on the warships, reducing the effective size of the warship in question. I don't think that there's any real question that in an equal-tech engagement the tanker-battleships are at a disadvantage against true battleships of similar size, especially if present in similar numbers, but the computer isn't all that likely to put you into that scenario after perhaps the middle of the tech tree. Resupply ships could possibly use a buff, but on the other hand I really think that tanker-battleships would be much less attractive if the computer player was closer to being an equal opponent, especially in the design and fleet utilization departments.

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Post #: 57
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 1:47:10 PM   
Skasski

 

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There appears to be a little error in your first "In-game numbers:" table. Dantha Tick 4 with 15 luxury shows an output of 104 instead of 78.
quote:

Dantha 26%      Tick 1  Tick 2  Tick 3  Tick 4
3 luxury        7       14      21      28
6 luxury        15      30      45      60
9 luxury        23      46      69      92
12 luxury       26      52      78      78
15 luxury       26      52      78      104

(in reply to Aeson)
Post #: 58
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 2:18:19 PM   
Airpower

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skasski

There appears to be a little error in your first "In-game numbers:" table. Dantha Tick 4 with 15 luxury shows an output of 104 instead of 78.
quote:

Dantha 26%      Tick 1  Tick 2  Tick 3  Tick 4
3 luxury        7       14      21      28
6 luxury        15      30      45      60
9 luxury        23      46      69      92
12 luxury       26      52      78      78
15 luxury       26      52      78      104



Good catch! The 78 should actually be a 104 though. I fixed it. Thank you.

(in reply to Skasski)
Post #: 59
RE: Resource mining and you - 7/6/2014 2:56:54 PM   
Airpower

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
It can be much, much bigger. That's not an advantage in all cases, and you can certainly make up for it with multiple ships, but it's hard to say that one giant block of shields is worse than the same size worth of shield components spread over a bunch of smaller ships. Of course, that really goes to the point that the Resupply Ship is potentially more useful acting as a giant battleship/carrier/troop transport than in its intended role, despite sacrificing ~20% of its size to noncombat-related components.

There's also a slight advantage in it being more of a set-and-forget semi-mobile refueling point than the tanker-battleships are, and that the 100 size or so of a long-range scanner component is a rather trivial cost for a ship that can be well over 4000 size (this is more true earlier in the game when the ship sizes are more limited and ~100 size units for a long range scanner plus the static energy cost is a nontrivial addition to any ship that isn't huge or dedicated to carrying the scanner). Going along with the not-yet-late-game tech state, it's also not really a trivial decision to set aside enough space on a warship for refueling purposes if your ship sizes are still smallish, especially if your designs are relatively fuel-hungry.

Resupply ships keep the refueling capability in a single hard-to-destroy target that, if used in the intended role, mostly stays out of fights, while tanker-battleships put the refueling capacity on the warships, reducing the effective size of the warship in question. I don't think that there's any real question that in an equal-tech engagement the tanker-battleships are at a disadvantage against true battleships of similar size, especially if present in similar numbers, but the computer isn't all that likely to put you into that scenario after perhaps the middle of the tech tree. Resupply ships could possibly use a buff, but on the other hand I really think that tanker-battleships would be much less attractive if the computer player was closer to being an equal opponent, especially in the design and fleet utilization departments.


I agree that the biggest benefit of a refueler is how large it can be. You're right in that the larger size gives it some unique applications earlier in the game, before regular ship sizes have gotten larger.

I may not be clear on what I mean by (to use your phrase) a tanker-battleship. What I am talking about is a ship designed to the exact specifications as a normal Refueling Ship design, only set as another ship class (Escort, Destroyer, Frigate, etc). That's it. I'm not talking about tanker fleets anymore, which people didn't seem to like. I'm talking about a single ship in the tanker role that is not a Resupply Ship.

There seems to be two different mindsets here... mine and everyone else's.

My mindset is that a non-Resupply Ship tanker does not have to deploy. It can fill up its tanks with gas in friendly territory, fly that fuel out to a fleet, and dispense it at any location since it does not have to be deployed at a gas giant or cloud to dispense gas, like a Resupply Ship does. A tanker-battleship in this role could easily have zero shields and armor, and no defensive or offensive potential at all. It just flies to the fleet, refuels it, and flies out of the combat zone again. Because collected gas reserves are capped at 30100, you don't need much cargo space on it. If you have the requisite tech level, you can put a gravity well generator on it and some light shielding. This way it can collect as a singleton in enemy territory, and if enemies warp in to attack it, it can fly off unmolested. I prefer this approach because it's more flexible and able to react to enemy presence. Also these ships are built at starbases, so they're easy to produce en masse.

The prevailing mindset, however, seems to be that Resupply ships are the ideal ship class for this role. Because they have a larger chassis, they can mount more shields, making them better able to survive enemy attack. However they are still capped at 30100 gas per type (60200 total), so most of their large space is still free after allocating cargo. They can be a hybrid heavy combat / refueler unit, and if they're caught alone, their higher defenses and potential for offense let them handle themselves well.

Is that about right? I prefer speed and agility and everyone else prefers strength and survivability in a tanker?

I still feel that Resupply ships should have most of the benefits of battleship-tankers. Mainly no deployment time, and the ability to dispense fuel while not stationed at a gas giant/cloud.

< Message edited by Airpower -- 7/6/2014 3:57:15 PM >

(in reply to Aeson)
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