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What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

 
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What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/2/2014 9:53:25 PM   
Princessjj1

 

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This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...
Post #: 1
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/2/2014 10:36:17 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...


Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 1:13:09 AM >

(in reply to Princessjj1)
Post #: 2
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/2/2014 10:59:42 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7970
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You forgot one. Third is naval movement and combat... then NetPlay.

Edit: Need to amend that. All through the process any really bad or game stopping bugs are also to be worked on, then comes NetPlay.



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 7/3/2014 12:07:46 AM >


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RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 12:02:08 AM   
bo

 

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Ah yes, Paul has reminded me of naval movement and combat then net play, and of course game stopping bugs hmm shouldn't that have all been resolved before November 7th 2013? Remember Darkstar this is a one man operation, that was Steve's and Matix's choice that is on them not the testers.

And if there weren't dedicated beta testers like Paul and others we might be nowhere's right now as compared to where we, hmmm, oh never mind.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 1:07:38 AM >

(in reply to Princessjj1)
Post #: 4
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 4:14:11 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4158
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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*Sigh* Looks like it was a mistake to buy this one...

I could wait for either AI or Netplay, but to wait for so long after release for either one, or even for the single-theater scenarios, is unacceptable.

Note to self: don't buy any more complex board-game conversions from Matrix.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 5
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 5:32:51 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...


Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo




Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!

_____________________________

Flipper

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Post #: 6
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 10:23:58 AM   
Princessjj1

 

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We spent $100, and in return we got screwed.

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Post #: 7
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 11:37:40 AM   
juntoalmar


Posts: 552
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In my opinion, even with the current issues, it's still the best wargame I have ever played. I don't regret a minute.

I'm sorry to hear that you are disappointed guys. Let's hope that project keeps on progress and eventually we have everything we are expecting from the game.

Cheers

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to Princessjj1)
Post #: 8
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 11:40:27 AM   
Harold Haralson

 

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I still have my money 8)

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Post #: 9
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 2:16:44 PM   
monkla

 

Posts: 56
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From: Adelaide, Australia
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I don't regret spending my money. I am happy to put money towards gaming companies that are happy to attend to my interests. But I am extremely disappointed at where we are with the game at this time. I'm content with my decision to never buy another Matrix game again. I still contend that a game when released should be fundamentally fully functional. Not bug-ridden, and even now, a substantial period beyond release, and realistically we are years away from a fully working product with AI. That is, if that dream is really one that will even occur at all.

(in reply to Harold Haralson)
Post #: 10
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 3:18:27 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

In my opinion, even with the current issues, it's still the best wargame I have ever played. I don't regret a minute.

I'm sorry to hear that you are disappointed guys. Let's hope that project keeps on progress and eventually we have everything we are expecting from the game.

Cheers



I did not say that it isn't the greatest war game ever constructed, it surely is IMO, I love the game It looks great, it's just this thing I have about it, I wan't to play it. Hopefully in my lifetime and at my age that was no joke juntoalmar

Bo

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 11
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 3:29:11 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...


Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo




Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!


Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE!

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 4:57:30 PM >

(in reply to wworld7)
Post #: 12
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 3:47:04 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

*Sigh* Looks like it was a mistake to buy this one...

I could wait for either AI or Netplay, but to wait for so long after release for either one, or even for the single-theater scenarios, is unacceptable.

Note to self: don't buy any more complex board-game conversions from Matrix.


Ah my good friend from Moscow, hi 76mm, only in timing did you make a mistake, in time, if Steve is given time it will be the greatest, most testing, truly absorbing, all encompossing game ever made for the computer. It may sound like I speak with a forked tongue but in reality I love the game.

I enjoyed working with the beta testers on this one, I liked doing an AAR on Guadalcanal and Fascist tide even if they were not the best that could have been done.
I did not mind giving up my time while working with cad 908 [Rob] on netplay, of course to no avail, and will do so again not for Matrix this time but for the players.

Bo

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 13
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 3:49:05 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

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To be blunt I am sceptical an AI for such a game can even be worked out at any satisfactory level. The amount of variables are too many and the kind of AI needed is probably one in the style of the military computer seen in the old movie Wargames.

This is a game meant to be played with other human players.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 14
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 4:07:48 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen

To be blunt I am sceptical an AI for such a game can even be worked out at any satisfactory level. The amount of variables are too many and the kind of AI needed is probably one in the style of the military computer seen in the old movie Wargames.

This is a game meant to be played with other human players.


Agreed Cohen the game was meant to be played by humans no argument there, you have Vassal and someone suggested another way of playing but I forgot who brought that up.

I pesonally am not skeptical about Steve doing a good AI even though I realize he is dealing with 73,000 hexes and not 64 like in chess. But I go back to my original feelings and that is I want to play when I want to, not at the whim of someone else, but thats just me.

Please I am not critcising Steves ability in any way of what he has accomplished in this game, but just maybe this game with all its rules and nuances is not designed for a computer, who knows.

Bo

(in reply to Cohen_slith)
Post #: 15
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 4:36:39 PM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
.Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!


Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE!

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.


Bo
quote:



Bo, I quoted from your post so of course I thought it was you talking. What I bolded was FUNNY no matter who said.

You seem to think there is a choice to made (between Netplay and an AI), there isn't. To the best of my knowledge both are included in the project, and both at some point in time will be finished.

I cannot help but burst out laughing at some of the things you write (which I assume are your words). If these are somebody's else's ideas please give them credit.




< Message edited by flipperwasirish -- 7/3/2014 5:38:48 PM >


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Post #: 16
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 4:50:33 PM   
Numdydar

 

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So Bo how much longer would you want Steve to have worked on this before release? Without getting any payment at all?

While the Beta's are doing a wonderful job there was no way that they could have found the bugs in the code that the people here have done, including myself. So if we take the very small number of people that were betas, added an AI code, then we would have a much greater issue when released as not would the underlying basics of the game have bugs but those would be made even worse by having an AI code that had additional bugs on top of those. If people are complaining now, I cannot begin to imagine what the forums would be like under those conditions. Is your desire for an AI so strong that this is what you would have wanted?

I personally think Matrix did the right thing by releasing when they did. If they had a much larger beta group they may have delayed things as more issues would have been found earlier and so the games release would have been delayed. But only by releasing did they discover these additional issues. So there really was no way they could win under the circumstances.

The things that everyone seems to no understand as well is that a) 90% of the NetPlay code has been coded. All that need to be done once the major issues are resolved is to make any changes based on the fixes to the game. For all we know, these could be occurring as bug fixes occur. So getting Netplay to work is not like it needs to completely be recoded. The second thing is that there also has been a LOT of work done on the AI too. So again this is not something that needs to be started from scratch either.

So rather than complaining, we should realize we will have a game, whose base code will be very close to bug free, so NetPlay will work much better since the underlying code has gone through this process. The same applies to the AI.

For those that have issues with the time between updates, the community here ASKED for Beta versions before they became 'official' patches. Of course as Steve said, this has caused a week or two delay in releasing official patches. So they gave the community what they asked for and now people have issues with delays between patches.

So again, I bought the game on release, I had a pretty good idea that want has occurred was going to occur, so my expectations were pretty low. And so was my friend who also bought a copy on release. Yet both of us are still happy with our purchase as we did not have any lofty ideas about what the state of the game would be like on release. So when we had issues with NetPlay not working we just moved on until it gets fixed. If it never gets fixed, then so be it. Life moves on. Same with an AI. However, I am 100% confident a working NetPlay will be done as well as an AI. I do not really care as to when. As I do not feel like I am at death's door like Bo seems to

Just one person's opinion on being glad to have bought on release and convincing a friend to buy it as well. And yes we are still friends lol.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 7/3/2014 5:52:52 PM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 17
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 4:51:11 PM   
bo

 

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
.Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!


Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE!

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.


Bo
quote:



Bo, I quoted from your post so of course I thought it was you talking. What I bolded was FUNNY no matter who said.

You seem to think there is a choice to made (between Netplay and an AI), there isn't. To the best of my knowledge both are included in the project, and both at some point in time will be finished.

I cannot help but burst out laughing at some of the things you write (which I assume are your words). If these are somebody's else's ideas please give them credit.





No flipper they are my words and my ideas even though I might get my 13 year old grandson involved as he is twice as smart as me about things. Thats if I can get him away from WOT.

Not being smart in any way flip but why dont you get involved with MWIF they could use some help with netplay

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 5:54:33 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 5:40:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 34491
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From: Vermont, USA
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Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.

We are all working every week and doing everything we can to progress with our stated post-release strategy with the functional area fixes. Those are needed for solo, NetPlay and AI games, regardless of mode of play so they take first priority. This path was endorsed by most of our beta team as well as customers when we discussed it earlier.

Our #1 priority is to make sure that everything that was actually part of the release is 100% working. Any features that were not promised for that release (AI) have to wait. If we were to now stop progress on fixing bugs that affect all games and also stop plans to finish fixing NetPlay in order to implement an AI even for the smaller scenarios, I believe most customers would be quite unhappy. We have to first do our best to make sure the game works well in all areas for all the existing owners and then get the AI done.

Steve remains committed to working on the AI. It's probably his favorite area of programming. As long as his health holds up, I believe it will eventually be done.

We agree that a good working AI would be the single best thing we could do for the game, once the rest of the existing issues are resolved. However, if we had gone down that route and waited to release until an AI was finished, because of the limitations we were working under, there would likely have never been a release and no game at all. The only way to have a chance of eventually getting an AI was to separate it out from the original release so that the release could be finished within the available time.

Morally, the right thing for us to do is to make sure that everything we promised works well for all the customers first and only then to add more.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/3/2014 6:44:32 PM >


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Post #: 19
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 6:02:41 PM   
paulderynck


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Common sense? - re-read posts 14, 17 & 19.

_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 20
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 6:14:11 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.

We are all working every week and doing everything we can to progress with our stated post-release strategy with the functional area fixes. Those are needed for solo, NetPlay and AI games, regardless of mode of play so they take first priority. This path was endorsed by most of our beta team as well as customers when we discussed it earlier.

Our #1 priority is to make sure that everything that was actually part of the release is 100% working. Any features that were not promised for that release (AI) have to wait. If we were to now stop progress on fixing bugs that affect all games and also stop plans to finish fixing NetPlay in order to implement an AI even for the smaller scenarios, I believe most customers would be quite unhappy. We have to first do our best to make sure the game works well in all areas for all the existing owners and then get the AI done.

Steve remains committed to working on the AI. It's probably his favorite area of programming. As long as his health holds up, I believe it will eventually be done.

We agree that a good working AI would be the single best thing we could do for the game, once the rest of the existing issues are resolved. However, if we had gone down that route and waited to release until an AI was finished, because of the limitations we were working under, there would likely have never been a release and no game at all. The only way to have a chance of eventually getting an AI was to separate it out from the original release so that the release could be finished within the available time.

Morally, the right thing for us to do is to make sure that everything we promised works well for all the customers first and only then to add more.

Regards,

- Erik


This should be an eye-opener, even for the diehards. I couldn't write a more conclusive epitaph for the AI if I tried.


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 21
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 7:36:08 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Common sense? - re-read posts 14, 17 & 19.


Paul I do hope we can respect each others post whether we agree with them or not, I rarely disagree with anything you say other than the AI, you are in that camp of net play and nothing will change it, and nothing will change me either, I was answering a question by Darkstar and tried to answer it from my perspective and no one elses.

Posts 14,17,& 19 are opinions from trusted posrters and I have no argument with them out of respect BUT that does not make them right. I would like a better explanation as to why this is the first and only game in the history of Matrix to be released without an AI in tack, and Numy I am that old so forgive me if I dont do a smiley, nothing against you of course.

Bo

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 22
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 7:36:45 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.

We are all working every week and doing everything we can to progress with our stated post-release strategy with the functional area fixes. Those are needed for solo, NetPlay and AI games, regardless of mode of play so they take first priority. This path was endorsed by most of our beta team as well as customers when we discussed it earlier.

Our #1 priority is to make sure that everything that was actually part of the release is 100% working. Any features that were not promised for that release (AI) have to wait. If we were to now stop progress on fixing bugs that affect all games and also stop plans to finish fixing NetPlay in order to implement an AI even for the smaller scenarios, I believe most customers would be quite unhappy. We have to first do our best to make sure the game works well in all areas for all the existing owners and then get the AI done.

Steve remains committed to working on the AI. It's probably his favorite area of programming. As long as his health holds up, I believe it will eventually be done.

We agree that a good working AI would be the single best thing we could do for the game, once the rest of the existing issues are resolved. However, if we had gone down that route and waited to release until an AI was finished, because of the limitations we were working under, there would likely have never been a release and no game at all. The only way to have a chance of eventually getting an AI was to separate it out from the original release so that the release could be finished within the available time.

Morally, the right thing for us to do is to make sure that everything we promised works well for all the customers first and only then to add more.

Regards,

- Erik


This should be an eye-opener, even for the diehards. I couldn't write a more conclusive epitaph for the AI if I tried.



+1

Bo

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 23
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 7:47:46 PM   
bo

 

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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So Bo how much longer would you want Steve to have worked on this before release? Without getting any payment at all?

Numdydar


Numy that is not my concern or yours that is on them. They worked out a contract to suit them and ADG, many games are released with problems no question about that. This is beyond that IMO, Steve knew what he was getting into or should have, personally I think there are some egos involved here that we can do anything and I respectively disagree with that assumption. Without any knowledge there was so many things that could have been done here and were discussed years ago.

I want the game out as bad as any body here but I have lost all my confidence that not only the AI may never come to pass but net play might be in danger and PBEM where is that playing.

This is getting a little deep for me now and I do not want any animosity occuring between me and other posters. I speak from the heart and I do not mean to anger anyone, I was giving an opinion to Darkstar thats all

bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 8:52:11 PM >

(in reply to Princessjj1)
Post #: 24
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 8:00:47 PM   
bo

 

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Hey Eric, you said Bo is the biggest champion about the AI on the beta team, how about the only champion

Bo

(in reply to Princessjj1)
Post #: 25
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 8:42:49 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
Well maybe it is just me then. But I have been playing games without an AI for years now. So playing both sides is not that big of a problem for me. So I really do not understand the AI or nothing type of argument. Even games with an AI I would much rather play both sides versus the crappy AI that is in most games. I have yet to any strategic level game where everyone was praising the AI and how great it is. Every forum I have been on, and more than just Matrix, says pretty much the same thing, the AI is great to learn, but to REALLY have a good game you need to play multiplayer.

If an AI gets done for WiF then great. If it sucks then it will be no worse or better than what the industry has today. Then we will have people posting the same things here as everywhere else about you need a human to have a good game. So since humans will give a MUCH better experience than whatever AI will be developed, then getting the game engine fixed and NetPlay working is the absolutely the best approach to take.

To me the AI is just a way to learn, but NOT a way to learn to play well. And that applies to any game not just WiF. Which is Why Decision Games' War in Europe does not have an AI and will never have an AI. And you know what, it is still an awesome game. Which is exactly what WiF will be with no AI as well.

Of course I do not understand CrussDaddy's continued bashing of the game and Matrix. As I have said before Cruss can post some really good stuff about the game (and I really wish you would do more of that) that I really enjoy reading. But every time I read a post like the one above I just do not see the point. But I could just be too dense to get it too But as you have told me before Cruss, you do not have to explain anything to me (or anyone else for that matter) but just know some us just do not get it


< Message edited by Numdydar -- 7/3/2014 9:43:21 PM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 26
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 8:54:29 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well maybe it is just me then. But I have been playing games without an AI for years now. So playing both sides is not that big of a problem for me. So I really do not understand the AI or nothing type of argument. Even games with an AI I would much rather play both sides versus the crappy AI that is in most games. I have yet to any strategic level game where everyone was praising the AI and how great it is. Every forum I have been on, and more than just Matrix, says pretty much the same thing, the AI is great to learn, but to REALLY have a good game you need to play multiplayer.

If an AI gets done for WiF then great. If it sucks then it will be no worse or better than what the industry has today. Then we will have people posting the same things here as everywhere else about you need a human to have a good game. So since humans will give a MUCH better experience than whatever AI will be developed, then getting the game engine fixed and NetPlay working is the absolutely the best approach to take.

To me the AI is just a way to learn, but NOT a way to learn to play well. And that applies to any game not just WiF. Which is Why Decision Games' War in Europe does not have an AI and will never have an AI. And you know what, it is still an awesome game. Which is exactly what WiF will be with no AI as well.

Of course I do not understand CrussDaddy's continued bashing of the game and Matrix. As I have said before Cruss can post some really good stuff about the game (and I really wish you would do more of that) that I really enjoy reading. But every time I read a post like the one above I just do not see the point. But I could just be too dense to get it too But as you have told me before Cruss, you do not have to explain anything to me (or anyone else for that matter) but just know some us just do not get it



I cannot disagree nor do I want to disagree with you or anyone else, what you say makes sense, most AI's are poor no question about that, you would think with all the knowledge of computers and such that after 20 some years of programming experience somebody somewheres could come up with a viable AI. Guess not huh.

Numy where do you get that game you mentioned? Who makes and where is it sold [Matrix, battlefront?]

Ok just checked it out it seems they are mostly a board game company charging 60 dollars for a game with out an AI seems kinda high to me.

I am not in crussdaddy's camp but I understand frustration, I happen to agree with that post that is why I gave it a plus 1, he is like me if you see something that does not make sense in our opinions you bring it out in the open instead of letting it fester inside you, or at least I do Numy, cannot answer for cruss I mean remember he called me the goofy general when I did the AAR on Fascist Tide did I let that bother me of course not, did I pout and get upset of course not

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/3/2014 10:15:24 PM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 27
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 9:20:14 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
My friend and I played the War in Europe board game a lot when we were younger so it was a no brainer for us. It is pretty amazing how well it recreates the board game on the computer. Just like WiF I might add We never got into WiF but always wanted to. So again it was not much of decision for us to buy WiF on release either.

But if anyone is a fan of WiE, then DGs computer version is well worth the price And Bo, if you ever want to play WiE let me know. I can promise you I am much better than an AI . Of course I did not say how much better I was lol.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 28
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/3/2014 11:42:24 PM   
juntoalmar


Posts: 552
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline
Thanks for your post Erik, and even if we all would like to have all features by tomorrow, I totally understand your position.

Resources are limited, and we have to use them wisely (well, we play wargames and we know that... we should, at least).

First, to fix the bugs that will affect any single game.

Second, add whatever is quickest to do. You say that is Netplay, and I believe it too. I think (and this is just a wild guess) that Netplay could take 6 months to finish, while AI something like 1.5-2 years.

So, yes, this timeline is good for me.

For now, we have to enjoy what we have. We all knew that there were issues on release, and even if they are taking longer to fix than expected, I'm still happy with what I have.

Cheers,

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 29
RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent? - 7/4/2014 12:05:48 AM   
WIF_Killzone

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 4/30/2009
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+5

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 30
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