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Gas Mining Stations in detail - 6/13/2014 11:29:25 AM   
BlueTemplar


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(I'm not sure, maybe this post would be more appropriate in the War Room? What generally goes there?)

So, I've observed a bit what was going on at a Gas Mining Station I was building :

10.19 : Command Center, Hab Module, Life Support, Basic Space Reactor (Caslon), 2 Gas Extractors (2*20 extraction), Small Cargo Bay (350 capacity), Small Fuel Cell (55 capacity) have completed. Docking Bay and Commerce Center still have to go.

10.22 : 159 Caslon, 136 Helium, 162 Hydrogen, in cargo. The Gas Giant has 80% Caslon, 68% Helium, 81% Hydrogen.

10.25 : All components completed. Note that you can stop your construction ship here, but you won't get nor the "First Mining Station Constructed" event, nor the extra non-gas strategic resources that later appear in the cargo.
If you do that the extracted gas will eventually top out at 422 Caslon (422=159*3-55), 408 Helium (136*3), 324 Hydrogen (162*2). Note that my Small Cargo bay capacity is 350, while it would seem that the station can hold between 914 and 1154 gas maximum so it actually stores about 3 times its "capacity".

(there was no 10.29???)

10.30 : 318 Caslon (+159), 272 Helium (+136), 324 Hydrogen (+162) in cargo.
So it would seem that 40 extraction rate on a station on a gas giant extracts about 200*percentage of each gas every (6?-)7-8 days.

11.01 : "First Mining Station Constructed" Event.
Resources appear in station cargo :
50 of Silicon, Lead, Polymer and Steel
26 Dilithium Cystal (I checked, it didn't come from HW)
25 Gold
Station has 297 Helium now (+25).
Total cargo (gas and other strategic resources) is 1190.

11.06 : 263 Caslon. (-55) Those 55 Caslon went into filling up the station fuel reserve which was at 0 until then. Note that having fuel and energy at 0 didn't prevent the station from extracting the gases.

11.20 : Construction ship has finished moving to the "border" of the gas giant and signals that it has completed its mission.

Next, what happens when freighters come visit!

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 6/14/2014 7:32:30 PM >
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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/13/2014 11:40:32 AM   
Bingeling

 

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When freighters visit, they will reserve their pickup, warning you about what will happen. Refueling ships will also reserve fuel on arrival, but only take away what is actually used.

You should very soon see what the units mined at each "tick" is, and be able to figure out "percentage" effects. You should also know how often they mine (daily, or only every few days). And once you know some basic stuff, testing rates on ships and higher mining tech should be faster.

A hint: It is better to ignore caslon as that is you fuel. Hydrogen could of course also be fuel later. That way you don't have to worry about ships refueling while there, making confusion in your caslon count.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/14/2014 6:11:27 PM   
BlueTemplar


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- The only components required for extraction are :
-- Command Center
-- Hab module
-- Life Support
-- Gas Extractor
-- Cargo bay

- One Gas Extractor (20 extraction) extracts about 110*percentage of each gas about every 6 days.
Two (40 extraction) : 200*percentage
Four (80 extraction) : 400*percentage
Five (100 extraction) : 400*percentage
So it would seem that extraction rate is capped at about 80 which is 400*percentage/6 days per gas. Not sure where those extra 10% for a single extractor came from...

- Those extra resources that appeared in the station cargo actually came from the construction ship cargo. It loads up more resources that it needs to build the station :
--50 more of Steel, Polymer, Silicon and Lead
--25 more of Gold and Helium
--it also loads extra 5-26 Dilithium Crystals, depending of how much cargo is left (350 cargo transports 350 resources)
--0 of every other strategic resource (I suppose that with enough cargo, it would take some of each of them?)
--null of Caslon and Hydrogen

- The construction ship is rather stupid, because if you cancel the construction order after it has loaded up the resources, it will go back to the planet, even if it has enough resources in cargo!

- You don't need to know the resource% of a gas giant to extract from it.

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 6/14/2014 7:33:42 PM >

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/14/2014 7:57:30 PM   
BlueTemplar


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I ran into an issue when wanting to build a bigger station.
Here's the required resource list :
87 Steel
42 Polymer
13 Gold
12 Silicon
7 Helium
3 Lead
(164 total)
But here's what my Construction ship picked up :
137 Steel (+50)
92 Polymer (+50)
62 Silicon (+50)
38 Gold (+25)
20 Helium (+13)
1 Lead (-2!)
(350 total)

So, obviously, my Construction ship got stuck waiting for those 2 Lead... for 9 months, until an independent freighter arrived!
If I stopped my construction ship, and ordered it to repair the station, it would go back to the planet, come back with 2 extra lead (only), which would take 2 and a half months instead. (the independent freighter would still deliver the lead)

I also noticed that after a while, various freighters would end up delivering every kind of resource to the station, and both times :
50 of Silicon, Polymer, Lead, Tyderios, Iridium, Steel, Dilithium Crystal and Chromium.
25 of Osalia, Carbon Fibre, Aculon, Argon, Krypton, Emeros Crystal, Nekros Stone, Gold (and probably Helium).
This could take two years.
It would seem that those would be added on top of cargo storage (same thing happened with a 350 storage mining station as well with a 6300 storage mining station, both otherwise full with gas), though I saw twice freighters failing to deliver resources to a station. (incomplete without Reactor because of lack of Lead) Those resources just seemed to disappear.

So my guess is that these resources are delivered with the idea that the station might need to be upgraded eventually? (They somehow upgrade themselves, right? Edit : Yes, they do, at 2 components per 6-7 days, which (coincidence?) is also my current construction yard speed : 200) Though that's 625 resources total, much more than was needed to build the station in the first place!

Note that this time, the 6300 cargo station seemed to hold about 25k of all three gases combined, which is about 4x its supposed cargo.

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 6/15/2014 11:04:26 AM >

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/15/2014 8:22:19 AM   
Timotheus

 

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That is some exemplary work there.



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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/15/2014 10:05:18 AM   
BlueTemplar


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Thank you. It did take several hours of testing.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/15/2014 2:31:54 PM   
Icemania


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BlueTemplar, did you happen to test what happens when you upgrade your Mining Station designs? Was the Private Sector smart enough to start transporting materials for a future upgrade with that new design? From distant recollections of past testing I don't think they do but it would be cool if they did.

That -2 Lead is interesting. Did you have sufficient stock at that world for the Construction Ship? I assume your Construction Ship also have sufficient cargo bays? If all was good here that sounds like a bug that we should alert Matrix about.


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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/15/2014 5:48:09 PM   
BlueTemplar


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I did not try to upgrade the mining station, but I'm going to assume the AI is programmed to always try to have those 625 resources in the cargo of every mining station (even if it's not completed).

Yes, my HW had plenty of lead.

No, that's the whole point : my construction ship cargo capacity is 350, and the station needs 164 resources, but the construction ship isn't smart at prioritizing the right kind of resources to pick up.

I would therefore conclude that you should try to have construction ships have at least 625 more cargo space than is needed for resources to build your stations.

You could probably optimize those 625 more, by instead starting at 0 and adding 50 cargo space for each resource that the station requires that the construction ship is going to pick 50 of, and adding 25 cargo space for each resource that the station requires that the construction ship is going to pick 25 of, and then subtracting 25 cargo space (because that would be last resource and you don't have the risk of not having enough of the next one).
But then you will waste freighter time (including independent and allied, which might cost you extra?) which will have to deliver those resources instead of your construction ship.

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 6/15/2014 6:48:39 PM >

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/15/2014 6:15:48 PM   
Verjigorm

 

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I would also have expected construction ships to load as much they can to build queued stations as fast as possible, but they return after each finished construction, regardless if you had enough space for all required materials.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/16/2014 12:48:18 PM   
BlueTemplar


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- The construction ship is still going to go back to the planet even if it has in its cargo all the components necessary to build the station when you order it to build it.

- The fact that ships can carry components in their cargo (a component takes 1 cargo space, regardless of its size or how many resources it took to manufacture) poses the question as to why construction ships need to have manufacturing plants in the first place, when all these components could be manufactured on a planet and then either picked up by the construction ship or by freighters.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/16/2014 1:45:53 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
No, that's the whole point : my construction ship cargo capacity is 350, and the station needs 164 resources, but the construction ship isn't smart at prioritizing the right kind of resources to pick up.

Agreed. I was hoping something had changed in Universe but apparently not.

But how many cargo bays does your Construction ship have? 1 Small Cargo Bay has a capacity of 350. If you custom design your bases you may need to ensure your Construction ship designs have the appropriate number of Cargo bays.

I also had a look at the template file and see 8-10 Cargo Bays which should be okay for AI designs.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/16/2014 3:47:15 PM   
BlueTemplar


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As already mentioned, the one used in testing had 1 Small Cargo Bay for a total of 350 cargo.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/16/2014 10:33:38 PM   
Icemania


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No you said 350 capacity. I wasn't sure if you were looking at the overall capacity or that of an individual cargo bay. But yes if you ensure there are extra bays given the AI behaviour the issue is eliminated.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/17/2014 12:46:36 AM   
elliotg


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Hi guys

Thanks for that detailed analysis :)

BlueTemplar: can you upload your savegame for this?

Just to let you know: colonies do reserve their own stockpile of resources, so that might be what you're seeing: the colony needs that stuff, so it's not available for the construction ship at that point. Also the extra resources are the resources needed to retrofit the base later. The Construction ship simply takes those with it when it builds the base to save freighters from doing that job.

Thanks
Elliot

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/17/2014 10:53:36 AM   
Icemania


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Just checking some old analysis and testing notes and I took a different very approach to this. Rather than test a limit case of 1 cargo bay that you would never apply practically in game the focus was simply to understand how many cargo bays I needed on a Construction Ship. I also wanted to avoid micromanaging the number of cargo bays so the idea was to develop a single number that I could use for the entire game.

I wanted to be able to build all of my custom designs without shortages so not just Mining Stations but also Starbases and Research Stations. Your mileage will vary but for me the answer was 7, not far off the AI default of 8 - 10, and I've never had a problem since.

Given the problems raised in this thread have a simple solution, Elliot, could I suggest spending more time in other areas of the game where it's desperately needed? e.g. Diplomacy exploit fixes.



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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/17/2014 11:41:27 AM   
feelotraveller


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On the construction ships I think the important thing is to know how they work. I have not found the 625 units of retrofitting resources documented in game and this makes for problems. (Coming back to the game I had to relearn this data even though I knew what I was looking for.)

I go for small bases to start and then upgrade them bigger if needed and find 3x350 bays and 2 of any other works fine for me. I usually get 3-5 bases out of each constructor before returning to a spaceport to reload. (Got to keep those lazy freighter captains busy.)

Good work on the caps. It seems that they have been doubled from previously.

Now you think that could get documented, like in release notes or patch notes or somewhere... Oh wait, if we had that information we could make informed choices in the game.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/17/2014 1:09:35 PM   
Icemania


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Well, the Galactopedia is moddable now ...

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/19/2014 10:30:31 PM   
BlueTemplar


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No, I had plenty of Lead at my Homeworld.

To be on the safe side, you would just need to have your Construction Ship design to have 625 more cargo than what your largest non-colony station design requires in resources.

Wait, how do you make your construction ships to NOT go to reload when you give them the construction order? Or does making a queue of construction orders works?

Here's the save :

Attachment (1)

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/20/2014 4:42:14 AM   
feelotraveller


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Getting multiple bases out of one constructor load is a bit tricky. It can safely be regarded as an exploit...

If the construction ship does not have all the resources required to build the base it is ordered to build, including retrofitting supplies (assuming it has sufficient cargo space for all that... as you have pointed out above) then it will attempt to get these from the nearest spaceport. So to get multiple bases you need to preload your constructor.

The best method is to figure out exactly which (and how many) bases you want that constructor to build from its load. Go into the design details screen and note the resources totals (design summary, I think) needed for each. Then total them across their type. (E.g. 133 steel, 65 polymer, etc.) Total the totals and add 625 for retrofitting supplies for the constructor cargo space required. Adjust your constructor design, expectations or base designs to fit. (See note below.)

Then design a base (I use the generic starbase slot for this) which includes the same (or slightly more) resources as your base totals require. Don't worry about the retrofitting supplies as they will be added automatically. If size (of the starbase design) is an issue but you can substitute different smaller compoments to suit (e.g. 2 hab modules and 2 standard armour require the same materials as 4 standard cargo bays and a docking bay but take up a lot less design space).

Then order your constructor to build your load starbase. (I tend to order this built at the site of the first base I want actually built just in case I get distracted, that way I have the most time to fix my oversight.) It will load all the resources required and one set of retrofitting supplies.

Wait until it leaves the docks and cancel the starbase build. (Cancelation can be made right up until the base starts to build but it will reset your hyperspace travel/drive charge time.) You now have a constructor with all the resources required to build your bases.

Give it the order to build your first base and wait until the new base first shows 'all components normal'. At this point you want to tell the constructor to stop otherwise it will unload all remaining resources into the new base.

After having stopped the constructor (you will get 'hold at ...' as its assigned order) give it the order to build the next base and repeat until you get to the last base you can, or want, to build from this constructor load. At the last base you can (and I suggest should) let the constructor unload the retrofitting supplies and all other unused materials since you will now be returning to a spaceport for a new load (probably a different starbase design).

NOTE: It is important that your base designs have components divisible by your build speed with no remainder. Otherwise the constructor unloads immediately in the same period as building the 'remainder' components. (Be careful with construction speed changes...)

p.s. More flexibility in bases to be built can be traded for less efficient use of constructor cargo space.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/20/2014 4:48:01 AM   
feelotraveller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Well, the Galactopedia is moddable now ...



Yes. That works for omissions.

But... first the changes which have gone unremarked have to be noted.


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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/20/2014 11:26:37 AM   
BlueTemplar


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But what I've noticed is that when you order a construction ship to build a base, it will go back to pick up resources, even if you have more than enough resources (or even components) in its cargo.
So, how can what you're proposing work?

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/20/2014 11:55:51 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Well, the Galactopedia is moddable now ...



Yes. That works for omissions.

But... first the changes which have gone unremarked have to be noted.



Agreed. I can only hope someone in the community is willing to invest the time to do this as it would be immensely helpful to many players particularly newbies. I would be happy to proof read the changes.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/23/2014 7:03:41 AM   
feelotraveller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

But what I've noticed is that when you order a construction ship to build a base, it will go back to pick up resources, even if you have more than enough resources (or even components) in its cargo.
So, how can what you're proposing work?


Follow my instructions above.

If the construction ship is going to a spaceport then it wants to load something it is missing for the base it is ordered to build. This could be retrofitting supplies or resources for construction (for instance, you need the steel to build the base plus 50 units for retrofitting).

What I know for certain is that the above routine works for me, from Shadows to at least 1.9.5.2. I highly doubt anything has changed to 1.9.5.4.




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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/23/2014 3:19:00 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

But what I've noticed is that when you order a construction ship to build a base, it will go back to pick up resources, even if you have more than enough resources (or even components) in its cargo.
So, how can what you're proposing work?


Follow my instructions above.

If the construction ship is going to a spaceport then it wants to load something it is missing for the base it is ordered to build. This could be retrofitting supplies or resources for construction (for instance, you need the steel to build the base plus 50 units for retrofitting).

What I know for certain is that the above routine works for me, from Shadows to at least 1.9.5.2. I highly doubt anything has changed to 1.9.5.4.






I agree with you 100%..............most of these guys are new,haven't really played a large number of games for a significant number of game years.
Some things are legit and have been mentioned in wishlist and other such threads before. Other items/suggestions people have just seem to be first impressions that strike them as oddities to be questioned. Don't take it personally if players seem to question your answers,they may just have to find out for themselves.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/27/2014 11:41:28 PM   
BlueTemplar


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To be more clear about why I don't understand how your instructions can work, here's what I observed :
- Give a construction ship an order to build a mining base.
- It goes to load cargo plus extra, then goes to the target spot.
- If you cancel its order at this point, then give it the order to build the exact same station at the exact same place, it will go back to the loading point, despite having all the cargo it needs.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/28/2014 3:12:48 PM   
feelotraveller


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I do not see this at all in my games. Perhaps you cancelled the mine after the constructor already started work on it? Or could it be that it is a different base you are ordering the second time around (perhaps it got updated or you selected a different design)?

Other than that the only reasons I can see are:
1) The spaceport has accepted deliveries of resources the construction needed but were unavailable initially
2) The constructor is low on fuel
3) The constructor needs repairs
All of these are factors I assume that you would be aware of and could safely be ruled out.

Have you tried following the instructions a few times and observed what is going on? What does the constructor do when it returns to the spaceport?

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/29/2014 2:01:25 PM   
BlueTemplar


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It seems like it's docking at the Spaceport to get the resources (it already has). I'll try it again.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 6/30/2014 5:36:35 PM   
andyinkuwait

 

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In the case of pre warp, where speed is of the essence, paring a constructor down to minimum size with minimum cargo bays, may be an option for speeding it up and adding more ion thrusters.

After the initial panic of building a few mines/gas is out of the way, a more realistic use of cargo bays could be implemented by upgrading. I would therefore recommend 3 x 350 cargo bays for the initial burst (200 odd for the mine/gas + 625 extras). Does this sound a reasonable strategy? 2 x 350 is probably running close to the limit.

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RE: Cargo on a Gas Mining Station - 7/1/2014 2:30:17 AM   
feelotraveller


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I use 3x350 in pre-warp for my first constructor (or two).

The choice for me is typically between a 5 hab/ls constructor at speed 21 (using all available power from one reactor) or adding another hab/ls, reactor and a bunch more engines for greater speed.


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