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Same old mega-bug and a request.

 
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Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/8/2014 4:38:54 PM   
topper6

 

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I'm so sick of this issue I'm going to explain here.

How many of you others have noticed that when you order an "fire" order from a unit it is immediately spotted and identified by the AI. If you just use "defend" the unit can mostly stay somewhat hidden. But it's pissing me off that whenever I want to target a single target with "fire" it most oftenly get destroyed instantly by the AI.

Another thing. Please re-install the "flee"-option. I've asked for this Before.

*Edit*
The bug where tanks don't turn to their defending direction is still there..

*Edit nr 2.*
Why can't we put AT-guns inside of Buildings anymore? >:(

< Message edited by topper6 -- 6/8/2014 7:11:28 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/8/2014 6:20:21 PM   
Cathartes

 

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the flee option has not been present for several versions of Close Combat. I realize you and others would like it added, but it involves some coding changes that were made a while ago. Others are more qualified than me to answer this more specifically.

tanks do turn to defend the direction you move the arc, but the circumstances under which and when you give this command may impact how and why the tank is not able to turn immediately. more specifics would help to understand this.

anti tank guns can't fit in buildings because they're big and heavy; however, a few lighter German guns can fit in buildings (one story bldgs), notably the 7.5cm leIG18

(in reply to topper6)
Post #: 2
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/8/2014 7:00:20 PM   
topper6

 

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Imo, that was mostly a non-answer for me..

I know that some Think AT-guns won't fit into buildings, I'm not of that opinion.. And the tanks not facing where i order them to face is some kind of programming bug. If you click the arc some times the tank will eventually turn in the right direction.

The flee option, how hard can it be to program that back into the game?

< Message edited by topper6 -- 6/8/2014 8:13:42 PM >

(in reply to Cathartes)
Post #: 3
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/9/2014 12:45:06 AM   
CGGrognard


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Soldiers who have broken, tank crews who lost their tanks are two examples of soldiers fleeing the battlefield. Granted they sometimes run right into enemy fire, but I've had a Bren team exit the battlefield due to low morale.

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(in reply to topper6)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/9/2014 6:51:22 PM   
newts2339

 

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I would like to add, in a similar way, that I have noticed that if I had to rely on only my MkIVs that my tank forces would be totally obliterated if I was playing the AI. I am convinced that if there were an equal number of them against a comparable tank such as the Sherman (although the MkIV has a much better gun) I would be the loser in the majority of the battles. Even if I am in ambush position hidden in the hedgerow it seems that the tank is easily spotted. If I manage to get the first shot, even if the tank is stopped, it usually misses. Then the enemy tank just has to sit still and shoot and usually scores a kill. My tactic, out of necessity, is to have at least two tanks firing on each enemy tank to lessen the chance that the enemy tank can take out one of mine. Now if I had all Panthers instead this would not be a problem as most of the shots just bounce off.

(in reply to topper6)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/10/2014 2:51:21 PM   
topper6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGGrognard

Soldiers who have broken, tank crews who lost their tanks are two examples of soldiers fleeing the battlefield. Granted they sometimes run right into enemy fire, but I've had a Bren team exit the battlefield due to low morale.


I'm not talking about exiting teams from the map. I mean the option where you could flee the field with all your troops, thus risking to loose some men if they where to Close to the enemy.

And I don't Think most understand what I mean with the "fire"-bug. Try it out. Have a mg-team or AT-gun in ambush and let the enemy come in sight. Then try either to hand-pick the target for your men with "fire". Then the next time go from ambush to defend. U WILL see a difference where the first option, where you use "fire", oftenly instantly make the AI target your team.

< Message edited by topper6 -- 6/10/2014 3:53:18 PM >

(in reply to CGGrognard)
Post #: 6
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/10/2014 4:07:25 PM   
CGGrognard


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To Topper6:

The "flee" option was a good element of the game. I believe if the game is played with "morale" on, then that works just as well if not better than the flee option. If morale is on, and your forces break, the battle ends, representing they fled the battlefield.

As for the "fire" bug, I've experienced that before as well. I'm not certain though if it's a bug, or the mechanics of the programming.

Appreciate these issues being brought up though. The best method to deal with them is remains in question and preference.


_____________________________

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu

(in reply to topper6)
Post #: 7
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/10/2014 5:12:34 PM   
t001001001

 

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Regarding heavy AT or tanks in houses, the house might have a basement and the floors aren't built for that much weight.

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/10/2014 9:14:28 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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"Fire" and "Defend" orders don't directly determine how likely a unit is to be spotted. The exposure level of a unit is determined by the actions of each soldier in the unit. But troops on "Defend" make a choice about whether a shot is worth taking or not, and don't tend to fire unless they think they can hit and damage the target. "Fire" is telling the unit to fire no matter what. So "Fire" typically results in more men shooting / exposed (as loader, spotter, etc) and thus more exposure.

Steve

(in reply to t001001001)
Post #: 9
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/10/2014 11:41:30 PM   
Kanov


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RE: Guns in houses

I would think that you first need to dismantle an AT gun of decent caliber (5cm up) IRL to fit it inside a building, alter the building itself to allow some nice arc of fire (modify a couple of walls here and there), then you have to reinforce the building somewhat as to not allow it to fall upon you after a few shots (because of the shock or whatever and also of counter-fire).

Hardly something you would do in one day, probably need a couple at least or maybe even a week or more. I'm no engineer.

But, if you want you can try to mod the guns to have a smaller size (data wise, no graphic editing involved) so as to allow the game to fit them into buildings. At least you could in the old series, not sure now to be honest.

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/11/2014 3:14:59 AM   
STIENER

 

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well perhaps putting a medium size a/t gun [ german 75 mm ] in an intack building might be a stretch in allot of cases, but theres numerous 1st hand accounts in books of germans putting there 50 mm and 75 mm a/t guns in the ruins of buildings and rubble....and it didnt take them long to do it. so perhaps we can put our a/t guns in the ruins of buildings which we do have some of i believe.

the new book on kursk...blood, steel and myth... has 1st hand accounts of german a/t guns in buildings / ruins and rubble....and as a side note, the russians for the most part could not see the german a/t guns even when on top of them. they lost hundreds of tanks to the well camoflaged german a/t guns...so im going out on a limb here and would also say the AI is having an unfair advantage in spotting a/t guns etc...this has been a problem in past games as some say here.
can we not have them HIDE better steve?

(in reply to Kanov)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/15/2014 4:36:33 PM   
topper6

 

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I'm sorry Steve, no offence and I don't wan't to be rude, but here it seems like i know the game mechanics better than you.

I just played a game as germans, I had a Flak 88 in a hedgerow and a Crocodile came out in an open field. Since I am familiar with the "fire"-bug i chose "defend" and the gun fired 18 rounds against the Crocodile without taking it out (and not beeing spotted by/or targeted by the Crocodile). The gunner loaded the HE ammo after the last round of AP. Then i put the gun on defend again, and correctly the gunner did not choose to fire the HE-round against the tank. THEN i ordered the "fire" option and IMMEDIATELY when i had clicked on the Crocodile it's turret started moving to fire at my '88. The gun was spotted the same split second as I ordered it to fire.

< Message edited by topper6 -- 6/15/2014 10:06:00 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/15/2014 9:28:15 PM   
newts2339

 

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I am curious as to how many times the Crocodile was hit and at what range it was fired on? Even if the 88 was not able to penetrate it should have pretty well decimated the tank and crew with even as many as 9 hits, or about half. But I understand what you are saying. I too have times when a tank or AT gun is sitting in ambush and still manages to be seen too easily.

(in reply to topper6)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/15/2014 10:43:57 PM   
newts2339

 

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And besides that...how did you manage to keep an 88 intact for that may rounds?

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Post #: 14
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/16/2014 7:33:09 AM   
STIENER

 

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schmal_turm has a good point here.... and this is what kind of bothers me about CC and the ongoing series. why cant matrix and CC get the gun, penetration and armour data correct after all this time??

theres a couple of things wrong with the above scenario IMO.....the flak 88 should not take more than 2 or 3 rds..at most... to knock out a crock. thats gun, penetration and armour data thats incorrect.
stuff like this should not crop up in CC at this stage of the games...but it always seems to.....WHY? it takes away from the game...pure and simple.

now as we have talked about above...we want the a/t guns to hide better but once the a/t gun starts to shoot...if it doesnt get the kill within 1or 2 shots then the tank and / or the accompanying inf should have the ability to spot the a/t gun. now theres a big difference in spotting an a/t gun thats camoflaged in a hedge and an a/t gun that is in the middle of road, or just behind a wall. the size of the a/t gun is a factor as well.
there needs to be a playable balance.
a flak 88 is as big as a small house....it has a higher profile than all the other a/t guns due to its original function. so all this needs to be taken in to account in CC...playability is also an issue which is over looked too much...but all this stuff should already have been figured out long before this game in the series.

(in reply to newts2339)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/16/2014 2:41:41 PM   
topper6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmal_Turm

And besides that...how did you manage to keep an 88 intact for that may rounds?


As I wrote I used the "defend" option since it doesn't reveal the gun instantly like the "fire" option does. The distance was 150-200 meters and the Crocodile was hit perhaps 15 times, I didn't Count.

(in reply to newts2339)
Post #: 16
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/16/2014 2:56:34 PM   
Cathartes

 

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Frontal armor of Crocodile (Churchill Mk.VII) is strong enough (technically speaking) to withstand 88mm Flak 18/36. There is nothing wrong with the data in this case. It's possible to defeat a Crocodile with a critical frontal hit (straight on), but it's not so easy compared to every other Allied tank. If you're at a slight angle to the front, forget it. If it was a different tank in the above situation, the tank would have likely been wiped out.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 17
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/16/2014 6:47:04 PM   
topper6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

Frontal armor of Crocodile (Churchill Mk.VII) is strong enough (technically speaking) to withstand 88mm Flak 18/36. There is nothing wrong with the data in this case. It's possible to defeat a Crocodile with a critical frontal hit (straight on), but it's not so easy compared to every other Allied tank. If you're at a slight angle to the front, forget it. If it was a different tank in the above situation, the tank would have likely been wiped out.



The Point here is NOT how the tank survived, but how the game mechanics work. If you let your unit attack by ordering the "defend" option it will remain unseen for a much longer time then if you use the "fire" option. When you use the "fire" option the crew are mostly and oftenly instantly spotted by the AI and the AI will return fire.

(in reply to Cathartes)
Post #: 18
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/16/2014 10:35:35 PM   
STIENER

 

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im with topper6....the game mechanics dont seem right to me either. steve's explaination only makes sense to a point.
CC is a game where we get to take control of our troops and make them do things we want them too. not put them in defend all the time and let the game run itself.
IMO wether the gun is on defend or i make it fire, the crew should not be more exposed in one mode than the other. the troops are supposed to be trained professionals. becasue i say fire at that target wether you might miss or not does not mean all the crew expose themselves to do it. really??
as topper6 says this has been an issue with CC for awhile. surely we can do something to make the gun hide the same in defend as in fire mode??
after the gun fires 2 or 3 rds in a row, i would say then it should be able to be spotted easily after all everyone at that point is looking for it.

the other point here is...does the AI see better / spot, than multiplayer??

< Message edited by STIENER -- 6/16/2014 11:36:50 PM >

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/17/2014 3:33:05 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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The AI units spot player units exactly the same way as the player's units spot AI units. The AI can spot muzzle flashes from firing units and figure out where they are -- this is not guaranteed and is not substantially better than an experienced player in my experience. One advantage the AI has is reaction time. It notices instantly if a new enemy unit has been spotted, whereas a human player may need a moment to notice the new blip on the mini-map and move the view to see what it is.

Steve

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/17/2014 6:58:47 PM   
topper6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

The AI units spot player units exactly the same way as the player's units spot AI units. The AI can spot muzzle flashes from firing units and figure out where they are -- this is not guaranteed and is not substantially better than an experienced player in my experience. One advantage the AI has is reaction time. It notices instantly if a new enemy unit has been spotted, whereas a human player may need a moment to notice the new blip on the mini-map and move the view to see what it is.

Steve



I don't agree Steve. Then how can the AI instantly spot a unit when you order a "fire" order and EXACTLY the same time, Before any muzzle flash, target the unit?

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/18/2014 5:49:09 AM   
LuckyJim1010

 

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I'm on the fence with this.
Want to buy it but I am sadly old enough to have played the original CC, thought it was awful, and to be honest from what I am reading here does not bode well.
18 Hits on any tank would have the crew beating feet backwards in any tank.
Insta-Return fire just because you order a crew to Fire!
And yet it appears that if you give a Defend Order to the same unit they can pummel away and not be seen.

Instead of dedicating God knows how many Man hours revamping a system that was never that good in the first place, why not design something new ?

(in reply to topper6)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/22/2014 5:28:21 AM   
Saturnian

 

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quote:

equal number of them against a comparable tank such as the Sherman (although the MkIV has a much better gun) I would be the loser in the majority of the battles. Even if I am in ambush position hidden in the hedgerow it seems that the tank is easily spotted. If I manage to get the first s


I agree the MkIV is horrible in this game. I expect it to be a match if not better than the Sherman but it seems that only 'luck' will make a MkIV survive h2h with a Sherman. I estimate the MkIV will win only 1/3 of the time against a Sherman so my tactic is to line them up in groups of at least three and hope for the best.

(in reply to newts2339)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/22/2014 6:16:55 AM   
STIENER

 

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one would think that this would have been play tested? this is pretty basic stuff...mk 4 VS sherman.....

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/28/2014 7:27:02 PM   
STIENER

 

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cathartes.......is anyone looking into the sherman vs mk 4 issue?

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 6/28/2014 11:03:54 PM   
Cathartes

 

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I checked the data, and all looks good. Pretty much the same as PitF. No one complained in playtesting.

I recall one battle during playtesting where I was attacking onto a map against Conrad and I lost 7 Shermans vs zero losses for the German Mk. IVs. Peoples' experiences vary tremendously. The Mk.IV has a better gun, while the Sherman has slightly better armor. Sherman is a bit faster with faster turret rotation. There are a lot of variables that are never explained or seen by players, and they make snap judgements which are not based on good data.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 26
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 7/13/2014 12:47:10 AM   
imaca

 

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I think the problem may be that the game runs to its own logic which is easily misinterpreted by human players.
My own experience has been that I frequently get pasted by the AI when I am playing as allies with sherman or as axis with pzkw4.
I move/place/defend/ambush in a way that makes perfect sense to me but seems to frequently result in disaster. The AI has no such problem, and is aided by the fact it almost never moves except in response to the player.
A few things I have noticed:
Moving tanks towards a hedge to get line of sight on enemy units is extremely dangerous. The AI will shoot instantly the player makes line of sight while your own unit is still following your move command and takes time to respond (always to late)
Same with moving to get behind and surprise enemy tank, unless you get very lucky, your move command will give a delay to your tanks response, allowing the AI tank to start shooting first - the fact you have sneaked up behind them counts for nothing.
Traditionally there was supposedly an advantage conferred on units that were given a direct command by the player, but it now seems that this is no longer the case?

(in reply to Cathartes)
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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 7/13/2014 1:23:16 AM   
newts2339

 

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I agree with what imaca is saying. I have noticed for a long time that the AI seems to know where you are as soon as the line of sight is fixated on target thereby giving a player sneaking into a hedgerow or ambushing from a concealed position very little chance for a surprise attack. It seems that tanks should have very little field of vision from anywhere other than the frontal arc, at least when in combat.

I believe that tanks have the ability to see way too far assuming that they are traveling in a buttoned up mode which is generally what they do when in combat.

(in reply to imaca)
Post #: 28
RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 7/13/2014 2:30:53 AM   
newts2339

 

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On a side note: the camouflage seems to work really well. I had a 75pak40 that was only about 125m from some infantry and was not discovered at all.

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RE: Same old mega-bug and a request. - 10/7/2014 2:38:31 AM   
WoT

 

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Flee was just a get out of Gaol free card.

you make your decisions and then have to live (or die) with them.

Disengaging was not as easy as hitting a FLEE button.

(in reply to newts2339)
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