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RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash.

 
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RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 7:41:34 PM   
Sieben_slith


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Oh, boy, another opinion. I asked a simple question: How do I determine when I have built enough labs to maximize my research output?

1. TRC => TERP (the manual)
2. AO => TERP (the manual)
3. AO => TERP x bonuses (pasty11, I think)
4. TRC => TERP x bonuses (Andy06r)

Do any of you actually know how this works?

(in reply to Andy06r)
Post #: 31
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 8:32:37 PM   
pycco

 

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ok again maybe you will understand this time, your total capacity is shown on the 4th research tab called research stations. it is based on population the bonuses are applied to the base rate. it straight up says total research capacity if the numbers are even you are not at max capacity if the total capacity is higher than the actual output you are at max possible. having a capacity that is significantly higher than the actual output will result in lost money due to too many labs.

what is so complicated about this? it's laid out in a easy to understand way.

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 32
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 8:34:47 PM   
Andy06r

 

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I tested mine, and its easy to do...

1. Start game, pick republic, pick an average race
2. Build a high tech, energy lab, and star port.
3. Stick your scientist in there.
4. Calculate TERP * 1.25 (republic)
5. AO = Research * [ Total Labs / (TERP *1.25)] * scientist

There are two sets of bonses. #3 and #4 are both correct. Scientist / Location bonuses apply after TERP (#3), government/racial bonuses apply before TERP (#4).

In English, TERP is the total amount of scientists you have, if you will. I have 300,000 scientists. My government of republic boosts my scientist population to 375,000.

I have 360,000 "jobs" in labs. No loss. I have 400,000 "jobs" in labs, some loss.

Albert Einstein is a 10% energy scientist. He boosts the productivity of my scientists 10%.

Lets sat I have 140,000 energy scientists. AO is 140,000 * (380,000 / 400,000) * 1.1 = 146.3k

< Message edited by Andy06r -- 6/9/2014 9:40:54 PM >

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 33
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 9:32:02 PM   
Sieben_slith


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Yet another opinion:

5. TRC => AO (pycco). Looks like you would be chasing your tail with that one, if you didn't include TERP as a limit.

It would help if people would construct a logical argument using common terms: "research" and "jobs" are not defined in the game, unlike TRC, TERP and AO.

I'm inclined to go with #3, though if #4 is true I'll be spending a lot more than I need on research labs. I guess there is no simple answer to my question, or I haven't come up with the proper list of choices. I'll figure it out for myself.

< Message edited by Sieben Elfriend -- 6/9/2014 10:33:36 PM >

(in reply to Andy06r)
Post #: 34
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 9:53:15 PM   
Andy06r

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieben Elfriend

Yet another opinion:

5. TRC => AO (pycco). Looks like you would be chasing your tail with that one, if you didn't include TERP as a limit.

It would help if people would construct a logical argument using common terms: "research" and "jobs" are not defined in the game, unlike TRC, TERP and AO.

I'm inclined to go with #3, though if #4 is true I'll be spending a lot more than I need on research labs. I guess there is no simple answer to my question, or I haven't come up with the proper list of choices. I'll figure it out for myself.


Literally yesterday, with a calculator, I did this by hand.

Spaceport, 60k each.
Energy, 120k. High tech, 120k. 420k total.

Blue number terp is 330k. 15% high tech scientist, 25% republic.

Effective TERP (not shown) is 330k * 1.25 = 413k

AO weapons is 59k (out of 60 labs).
AO energy is 177k (out of 180 labs).
AO high tech is 204k (out of 180 labs).

It all balances. Of government wasn't applied to the max, weapons and energy in particular would be a lot different.

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 35
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 10:51:53 PM   
pasty11

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy06r

Guys, your argument would be over by now if someone used a specific example.

Republic has a +25% research bonus. This is to capacity.

Total Potential - 300k
Republic - +25%
Actual potential (not shown) - 375k

Proof? Build 380k of labs and notice hoe your actual output is not being scaled down.



This is exactly what I have been saying all along, did not think examples were necessary its so straight forward.

(in reply to Andy06r)
Post #: 36
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 10:52:18 PM   
pasty11

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieben Elfriend

Oh, boy, another opinion. I asked a simple question: How do I determine when I have built enough labs to maximize my research output?

1. TRC => TERP (the manual)
2. AO => TERP (the manual)
3. AO => TERP x bonuses (pasty11, I think)
4. TRC => TERP x bonuses (Andy06r)

Do any of you actually know how this works?


Wat? Mind blown. How on earth have you arrived here?
.


TERP = HOW MUCH RESEARCH IS POTENTIALLY POSSIBLE. EMPHASIS ON POTENTIAL. IF YOUR OUTPUT IS LESS THAN POTENTIAL BUILD MOAH LABS AS YOU HAVE BRAINIACS SITTING AROUND TWIDLING THUMBS. IF ACTUAL CAPACITY IS GREATER THAN POTENTIAL CAPACITY THEN YOU HAVE BUNSEN BURNERS WITH NO ONE TO USE THEM. YOU HAVE BUILT LABS BUT THERE ARE NO RESEARCHERS TO USE THEM.

SO YOU HAVE 3 CONCEPTS. THE MAXIMUM RESEARCH YOU CAN DO (TERP) HOW MUCH RESEARCH YOU ARE DOING (AO) AND HOW MUCH LAB INFRASTRUCTURE YOU HAVE BUILT.(TRC)

SOME BONUSES AFFECT THE TERP EG GOV TYPE AND SOME BONUSES EFFECT HOW MUCH OUTPUT YOU GET FROM CAPACITY E.G SCIENTISTS AND LOCATIONS.



< Message edited by pasty11 -- 6/10/2014 12:03:19 AM >

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 37
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/9/2014 11:14:39 PM   
pasty11

 

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Also one moah thing, output can be above TERP. lets say TERP is 1000 points of labs. Then you have a scientist bonus that gives 10% out put for the scientists in those labs. You build 1000 points of capacity that gives you 1100 point of output,all of which you keep becuase you are getting that 100 points from scientists working harder not moah actual scientists, however if you build anymore capacity it will not supply anymore output.

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 38
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 3:36:05 PM   
Sieben_slith


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Hey, pasty11, there's no need to shout. You're the one who has contradicted yourself in the thread. You're the one who insisted that TERP, as modified by the percentages listed directly below it, should be included on the screen. You're the one who showed calculations to the effect that AO should exceed TERP as modified by those factors. Now you say, well, AO actually already includes those modifications as well as all others (scientists, location-specific research bonus), as is clearly stated in the manual. Don't blame me if I'm confused because you can't construct a logical argument.

So, my take on all this: AO already includes all positive and negative effects on TRP. Therefore, you should build enough labs that AO => unmodified TERP. This is my case #2 above, one of the two contradictory statements in the manual. If I'm correct, someone could simply have said so. Now, you obviously don't need more TRP (labs) than TERP unless you have some serious negative modifiers to TRP in the form of bad scientists or leaders.

Note: => is an arithmetic expression meaning "equal to or greater than".

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 39
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 4:37:54 PM   
pasty11

 

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Wat, you are so far off. I just re read the thread and I have been entirely consistent, it only seems that way to you because you seem unable to grasp some simple concepts.

Also how is insisting that TERP should show the numbers below it e.g Adjusted or actual TERP wrong/contradictory? Is english your first language?

Have you read the posts by Andy, he clearly shows that the bolded gov/race bonuses effect the TERP,

quote:

Blue number terp is 330k. 15% high tech scientist, 25% republic.

Effective TERP (not shown) is 330k * 1.25 = 413k


so yea it would seem common sense to show us the adjusted number, you know the actual effective TERP. The only thing I am unclear about is how the bolded numbers effect output along with the specific output only bonuses from loc and scientist. Some sources say they do some say they dont. I am pretty sure but not 100% that they dont.

< Message edited by pasty11 -- 6/10/2014 5:44:51 PM >

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 40
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 4:52:57 PM   
pasty11

 

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TRC=>EFFECTIVE TERP is the answer to the simple question.

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 41
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 4:56:21 PM   
Andy06r

 

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The two of you are spamming a thread that neither of you posted.

I'm sorry, I'm not a mod, but can we put a fork in it?

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 42
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 5:03:10 PM   
Sieben_slith


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This is really getting old, so this is my last post. I see your quote from Andy06r, but how do you know what constitutes "effective TERP" if it isn't displayed? Why would you care, if those adjustments already figure into AO? Why have you not given an opinion on any of my specific proposals of how to calculate things? I basically agreed with your (modified) opinion in my last post - perhaps you didn't read it.

In the absence of any other input to this thread, I'm gone. I feel like a salmon swimming upstream. As far as who is a native English speaker, I think that is quite apparent to anyone reading our posts. Have a nice life.

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 43
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 5:03:14 PM   
pasty11

 

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The heat to light ratio may be worsening but every post is on topic, unlike yours.

(in reply to Andy06r)
Post #: 44
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/10/2014 5:06:57 PM   
pasty11

 

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Well that posts shows you still dont realy understand the concepts (the reference to TERP and AO).



I guess now the needless ad hominems have broken out we can abandon thread. I genuinely thought you might have english as a second language as you have had things broken down very very simply yet still seem confused. You say you "agree" with me, but going by the above post that is obviously not the case and you still think I am saying something Im not.


To try and put in some light, of course I would care about Adjusted TERP as that is the upper limit on useful capacity completely in a vacuum of output, how can you not see that? You can calculate effective TERP easily its no mystery its TERP x GOV/RACE bonuses.

< Message edited by pasty11 -- 6/10/2014 6:11:13 PM >

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 45
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/11/2014 10:45:39 PM   
unclean

 

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lol I'm not reading the second page of this, but OP if you really want to understand research check the wiki.

Also, this is old and displays things differently than the wiki page, but the math is the same and it might be easier to understand:



It's calculating weapon research output.

If A+B+C<T on the image, things get easier and all you do is multiply the individual research capacity by the bonuses.

tldr - if you want the most efficient research, keep A+B+C=T and put a scientist and a lab on the largest research bonus location you can find. If you own a +25% and a +10% bonus for example the +10% doesn't get used.

Having A+B+C>T is just diminishing returns, and how much depends on your multipliers. There's tons of wasted research in HT and Weapons in that image, but the multiplier on Energy looks decent enough that exceeding capacity on it might be worth it if you want your total research up at all costs. Honestly this is something I never even mess with, but if you're a min maxer go for it.

Also good economy advice ITT, only thing I'd add is that resort bases are really easy to forget about but give a decent boost early on. Get a good scenery bonus close to a homeworld and it's a minimum +5K, easy.

(in reply to pasty11)
Post #: 46
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/12/2014 11:22:56 PM   
Timotheus

 

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This picture on research.

Should be stickied for new players on the very top of the thread list.

Make it happen.

< Message edited by Timotheus -- 6/13/2014 12:23:37 AM >


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(in reply to unclean)
Post #: 47
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/13/2014 1:15:53 PM   
Sieben_slith


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Thank you, unclean, that's all I was asking for. Don't read the whole thread, since at least 5 different approaches to maximizing research output are presented. My problem is not the math, but the logic.

I appreciate your help, Sir. It really is as simple as I thought, unless you build far more labs than you need.

(in reply to unclean)
Post #: 48
RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. - 6/13/2014 2:41:24 PM   
ldog

 

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TERP being misleading is what has caused all the confusion about something that works pretty simply.
The problem is the word Total leads one to believe that it's the absolute max. It's the unadjusted max.

The picture really says it all.

To make it even simpler, try to always build enough so the sum of all 3 TRC is equal to or slightly greater than TERP. Unless you want to emphasize research in 1 or 2 branches then keep TRC of each equal. Don't concern yourself overly much with actual when you are learning the game.

(in reply to Sieben_slith)
Post #: 49
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