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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended TechTree) [WIP]

 
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 12:00:40 AM   
judahpeter

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/9/2014
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I agree this is ridiculous.

ANNYYYYWAAAAAYYYY.....There is a new beta patch today and if I'm not mistaken, it address's this problem.

MODDING
- allow including GameText.txt from a custom mod (i.e. read from theme folder)
- altered images\units\creatures folder to be read from the mod (if present) instead of the root game folder
- allow modding MP3 files in sounds\EFFECTS (not just WAV files)

< Message edited by judahpeter -- 7/19/2014 1:01:22 AM >

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)
Post #: 181
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 12:00:42 AM   
Falokis

 

Posts: 144
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Didn't they just fix the issue holding up this mod?

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)
Post #: 182
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 12:27:46 AM   
Locarnus


Posts: 275
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
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@PsyKoSnake:
;-)

Yeah, its pretty bad when you have to explain the concepts of "good faith and fair dealing" and "striking" and then even fairly simple mataphors dont work.

I think I give up, too lazy to draw a comic ...


edit:
@judahpeter and Falokis:
Sorry, didnt read anything about optional font sizes.

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 7/19/2014 1:31:06 AM >


_____________________________

DW:U BalanceMod v0.9 (extended TechTree)
compatible with DW:U Extended, StarTrek and XPanded

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3624576

(in reply to PsyKoSnake)
Post #: 183
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 2:11:35 AM   
Unforeseen


Posts: 588
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: New Earth
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Ok here this hasn't been tried yet. I will literally bake you a cake if you resume work on this mod.

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Post #: 184
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 4:54:13 AM   
hewwo

 

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haha:)

(in reply to Unforeseen)
Post #: 185
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/19/2014 8:00:18 AM   
bugbear777

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 6/12/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: judahpeter

I agree this is ridiculous.

ANNYYYYWAAAAAYYYY.....There is a new beta patch today and if I'm not mistaken, it address's this problem.

MODDING
- allow including GameText.txt from a custom mod (i.e. read from theme folder)
- altered images\units\creatures folder to be read from the mod (if present) instead of the root game folder
- allow modding MP3 files in sounds\EFFECTS (not just WAV files)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Ok here this hasn't been tried yet. I will literally bake you a cake if you resume work on this mod.




(in reply to hewwo)
Post #: 186
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:30:16 PM   
Unforeseen


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I'm considering throwing together my own tech tree mod... @Locarnus do not go loony on me if part of it looks like your mod. I'm using yours as a guideline since it was fairly close to what i wanted DW to be like minus a few things and plus a few things. If i do this it will be after Expanded Weapons FX is released and that depends on if Haree is updating extended.

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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:32:01 PM   
Sithuk

 

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@Unforeseen: have you considered using Icemania's AI improvement mod as a base?

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Post #: 188
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:37:16 PM   
Unforeseen


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Yes completely, i may need to get in touch with Icemania when i have the basic's figured out. But again this will wait until I've finished Expanded Weapons FX and updated DWOM with Update 3.

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Post #: 189
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:38:19 PM   
Icemania


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Locarnus, one thing to consider ... there is a "sweet spot" to hope for Developer Support for Mods. That time is still now, Matrix have a good track record of patches for some time after release. I called for changes to open up Research Orders and started my Mod as soon as that was provided. If you leave this Mod until later they will likely have moved onto other projects.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 1:38:32 PM >

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Post #: 190
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:41:14 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen
Yes completely, i may need to get in touch with Icemania when i have the basic's figured out. But again this will wait until I've finished Expanded Weapons FX and updated DWOM with Update 3.

I would suggest waiting until formal release, I'm still tinkering ...

After formal release for Vanilla I'll move to Extended.

After that I'd be happy to update for this Mod or an equivalent.

Or feel free to take it and run with it, I'm always happy to help.


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Post #: 191
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:50:36 PM   
Unforeseen


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Ok :D

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Post #: 192
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/20/2014 12:56:27 PM   
Tcby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Locarnus, one thing to consider ... there is a "sweet spot" to hope for Developer Support for Mods. That time is still now, Matrix have a good track record of patches for some time after release. I called for changes to open up Research Orders and started my Mod as soon as that was provided. If you leave this Mod until later they will likely have moved onto other projects.



This

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Post #: 193
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 7/21/2014 6:38:18 PM   
Unforeseen


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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3658567 Check this out if you haven't already.

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Post #: 194
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 9:17:24 AM   
Varlun

 

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I realize it's been a while since the last post, but I felt like throwing out my two cents on this whole thing. I don't care too much about my personal appearance here so I'm not going to bother with being politically correct and just say what I feel is probably on many people's minds, but they've all restrained themselves. I won't.

That being said this isn't just going to be a rant. But Locarnus, buddy, come on man. I said I wouldn't restrain myself but here I am because I actually want you to respect what I'm trying to say to you.

A few people have hinted at similar things, but I'm just gonna be blunt about it. Locarnus, man, you were stuck on the wrong side of a good thing.

Unlike most people I understand your strike. I understand your position and your reasoning for doing what you do. So please don't just come at me preaching about a landlord or some nonsense because I get it. But I think you are missing something as well and this is where I really hope you pay attention.

The problem with your strike is simply that it's unreasonable. You think you hold the cards because "oh if he doesn't relent, the community will never get this mod". In reality, as you may have noticed, the community very much -tried- to move on without you. In fact it is the disappearance of that other mod author which prompted my vent towards you. Although I'd hardly call this a vent at this point, I think I've kept myself quite civil.

The reason it's unreasonable is -NOT- the principle upon which it is founded. Again with your landlord example, I get it. I think everyone you tried to explain that to already got -that- part of it all, it's just they didn't go through the effort of really getting to the core of what they felt was wrong, instead just dismissing you as unreasonable and moving on. I don't think you're unreasonable, just that you've missed something.

The reason it's unreasonable is because you -seem- to have failed to take into account that your request places a large burden on the developer's end to make it possible. The font size increase was done for the benefit of the vast majority, and the detriment of a select few. AND AGAIN I feel like I have to defend myself in advance. I get it. You have a ****ty monitor. I'm not going to tell you to upgrade like some others have. You paid a lot of money for the game and expect it to work. I understand this.

The developer already responded to you- as many others have pointed out- from the beginning, explaining that 1) it would take considerable time to reverse the change, should that even be desired. And 2) it would take considerably MORE time to add any sort of option allowing everything to toggled. I don't fully understand how difficult this stuff is to do, but I accept the word of the developer that basically, it's not worth their time in comparison to getting other things done.

Really what this all boils down to is you just got left behind on an upgrade, man. It's unfortunate that an option wasn't included, yes. It's unfortunate that your experience decreased after having paid so much money and I really feel your position man trust me I do. But please try to understand, really, where it is you stand.

I want to try and give similar examples. I don't remember what game it was, but one game was having issues with achieving its best, due to the fact that it was a 32 bit game. This gave it lower amounts of memory to work with or somesuch. And for the sequel, they made the decision to go 64 bit only, to remove this hindrance. This left behind a lot of people who didn't have 64 bit systems, even though they're pretty common. And I do understand that this is different because we're talking about a sequel rather than changing a game after it's been bought.

Maybe this example would be better. What if you had been playing World of Warcraft since the beginning. WoW's graphics have always been really low end which is honestly one of its appeals to many people, you don't need a demanding system to play it. But as time went on it was eventually necessary to upgrade the graphics (cataclysm onward, biggest example is WoD just recently) such that the MINIMUM requirements for running the absolute lowest settings in both cases, has gone up. Some people who had really old rigs which were running the game just fine- I guarantee you this happened- all of a sudden started having problems with the game. After having spent so much money on it. $40 an expansion, $15 a month for God knows how long they've been playing. These theoretical- but in my opinion, likely- people probably spent more money on the game than you did! And all of a sudden the game changes and leaves them behind.

It's just progress man. In this example it would require a lot of work to maintain the same minimum requirements for those people, after upgrading something like the actual character models themselves (WoD). Not even the textures, I'm talking the meshes got more complicated. This is something universal to everyone, you can't just make an option for someone to render something with a simpler mesh.

Right now you are one of those theoretical people going on strike because the game's minimum requirements increased. Your principle is solid. You're a white knight on a mission. But in the end your request is unreasonable.

I suppose I'll stop myself here. I'm surprised I managed to get that out as non-ragey as I did, I was pretty heated when I started.

I really, really hope you'll sit there, right now, after having read this, and really think about where you stand. I get it dude, your position sucks, you paid a lot of money for the game and expect it to keep working. But from the developer's standpoint, sometimes you just have to upgrade dude, and sometimes that decision can leave a select few behind. You just so happened to be one of those select few.

Anyway, those are just my feelings, I'll quit. Please come finish what you started.

(in reply to Unforeseen)
Post #: 195
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 3:17:46 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 275
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline
Hi Varlun,

just got the reply notification for this thread after I thought it was dead for quite some time.
I see you spent quite some time writing this, so it would be impolite not to answer.

After my anger waned and some more time passed, I went back to DW, reading up in the forums and reconsidering my options, including a continuation of this mod.

1. The cause/fraud was not corrected. Well, with the anger waned down, this could be treated as an isolated, unfortunate incident.

2. After reading this thread again, one part of the people here were supportive and/or reasonable (like you) and the kind of community I would resume the mod for.
The other part were angry egoistic people attacking and discrediting someone for not spending his personal time to provide free stuff to them. When they are not even willing to write a 2 sentence email to the publisher/dev to help the guy making the free stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ponasozis
[...]
wow seriously i am amazed by this dude its more like he is attention whore then anything else


3. Then I browsed the steam forum too. I found this thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/discussions/0/619568192928771508/
And after some more browsing, this just tipped the scale.

Matrix Games / Slitherine is still, to this day, selling the original Distant Worlds (25.99€), RotS (16.99€), Legends (21.99€) and Shadows (21.99), without the possibility to upgrade to Distant Worlds Universe. The last upgrade was just a limited time "promotional" offer.
So to someone looking at the game and even searching for some information online (since the upgrade possibility is mentioned in forums and so on, the limited time is often not mentioned), it looks like you can buy the base game (eg if you cant spend a lot of money) and then upgrade later.
Or you have the first 3 expansions, were not paying attention to games during the "promotion" time or to matrix games in particular and now matrix/slitherine does not allow you to upgrade (DW:U was promised as an expansion to the DW community, not a limited time expansion/upgrade).

So you sell a product, implying an upgrade possibility, then make the "upgrade" only availabe for a limited time (since DW is still sold to this day, the "upgrade" time is even before the purchase time if you buy today), and then charge full price for the upgrade later on.

Thats called a scam.


Complete with citing technical/logistical reasons and "footnote" explanations:

quote:


Slitherine_Iain [Entwickler] 14. Okt. um 13:53 Uhr
I'm sorry you unhappy but this promotional offer has now finished. It was a promotional upgrade offer and was advertised from the release date on the 23rd of May and this was advertised as active until the 31st of August and everyone who we had details for was mailed about the option to upgrade. As with all sales there are logistical issues with setting up and running them and they all are time limited and once they are done, they are done. [...]

Regarding the original expansion packs, these are still for sale on the site, in case someone just wants specific portions of the DWU game, but we do advertise DWU on each product page to make it clear that there is a new version of the game available. The following text is displayed at the top of the product information for each of the other games:
"Get Distant Worlds: Universe for the complete and ultimate Distant Worlds experience!"”



Although I do not have the time (at the moment) to warn others about this business practice by posting on forums, review pages where matrix/slitherine games are discussed/advertised, the "isolated incident" seems to be business practice and I certainly will not support a company scamming unsuspecting customers, even if DW:U is the best 4X game at the moment and matrix games has a great legacy of catering to a niche market and helping small devs.

Hint to matrix games/slitherine: A niche market does not only allow you to charge higher (justified) prices for niche games. It also attracts some niche customers who do not just move along with any business practice you throw at them. Some just discontinue their mod, hopefully some teach you this lesson by informing about your business practice in forums/reviews.

Logistical issues for limited time upgrading with something advertised as an upgrade and then still selling the previous dead end upgrades with footnotes...



And to bring this matrix games/slitherine issue to a close for myself:

PS: I did not miss the "promotional offer" or waste money buying dead end upgrades...

PPS: I have a dual monitor setup, 24" ASUS PB248Q 1920x1200, and an older 19" 1280x1024.

PPS: Sorry for not continuing the mod, I really like the game and (most) of the community. But I can/will not support shady business practices and thus companies like EA and now matrix games/slitherine. Even if I m not affected myself, I m not an egoistic shortsighted person who can add 2+2 and realizes that not fighting shady business practice when it affects others will cause it to grow and bite you later...

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 12/4/2014 4:44:37 PM >


_____________________________

DW:U BalanceMod v0.9 (extended TechTree)
compatible with DW:U Extended, StarTrek and XPanded

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3624576

(in reply to ponasozis)
Post #: 196
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 4:30:00 PM   
Varlun

 

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I respectfully disagree with you here, on the premise that they are intentionally scamming.

Being blunt here (I don't think this), it almost feels like you're purposefully looking for something to be upset with them over. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unintentionally looking at this in (what is in my opinion) the wrong way.

You cited a comment by them on the matter. I happen to accept their explanation. You say that someone trying to look into the game may mistakenly get the idea that they can buy then upgrade- and in fact I agree with this- however (as you cited), those offers are all marked with an expiration date. From a pure and simple business standpoint, their bases are covered. Nothing is hidden, and if this scenario were to happen it would (in my opinion) be the fault of the consumer, for not noticing this expiration date.

I do think something should be done, however I don't even remotely agree that this is an attempt by them to do any sort of scam. I think that perhaps this expiration date should be posted at the top. Instead of (I assume) at the bottom; or even worse, somewhere in the middle. Even better, perhaps they should lead these articles with a large "EXPIRED" at the top. Maybe they should delete the pages entirely, since it no longer serves them any purpose.

As far as the forums are concerned, with people talking about the possibility to upgrade, again I agree that this could absolutely be a source of confusion. I'm not sure if you were implying this, but I do not under any circumstances think that the company should be held responsible for people getting confused from forum posts made by random people. Not sure if you were implying that specifically, but if so I disagree. A potential solution, perhaps there should be an all-caps sticky saying that the promotional offer has expired.

Outside of the promotional offer, I also agree that there could be (an appropriate) assumption on the consumer's part that if they buy any of the older expansions, they would be able to upgrade. I don't think these should be removed, as again I accept their explanation, that if someone for some reason specifically wanted an older version of the game, they could get it. However, I do think it should be very obviously stated that upgrading to Universe is not possible. I also assume the same is true for upgrading from any earlier version to a newer one, being that you simply can't? I think this should be made abundantly clear.

So I'm going to quote you here to organize my thoughts and make sure I covered everything properly.

"Matrix Games / Slitherine is still, to this day, selling the original Distant Worlds (25.99€), RotS (16.99€), Legends (21.99€) and Shadows (21.99), without the possibility to upgrade to Distant Worlds Universe. The last upgrade was just a limited time "promotional" offer.
So to someone looking at the game and even searching for some information online (since the upgrade possibility is mentioned in forums and so on, the limited time is often not mentioned), it looks like you can buy the base game (eg if you cant spend a lot of money) and then upgrade later.
Or you have the first 3 expansions, were not paying attention to games during the "promotion" time or to matrix games in particular and now matrix/slitherine does not allow you to upgrade (DW:U was promised as an expansion to the DW community, not a limited time expansion/upgrade)."

Looks like I covered everything so far except for that last bit, about the promised upgrade. I'm starting to notice a general theme here with your complaints. While they are valid and logical, they are (in my opinion) too consumer-focused. Which is natural and I absolutely don't hold it against you for taking such stances. (By the way, just want to make it abundantly clear, I'm not being condescending just in case it might seem like I am) But man, there's a balance to be had here, an equilibrium between everything perfectly catering to the consumer and perfectly catering to the developer.

Right now I would say that everything you brought up just now, is absolutely too far slanted toward the "developer" side of things. He's selling the originals (which benefits consumers too), advertising for a better product on those pages, and there are no mentions that you can't just upgrade. It isn't obvious that each "expansion" is actually a standalone copy of the game, rather than- for example- how World of Warcraft's expansions work. I didn't see you offering any suggestions, but if you did I'd wager that they would be too far slanted toward the "consumer" side of things. What I have been suggesting is in the middle.

Anyway, moving on. As far as the promised upgrade. You complained that this emerged as a limited time upgrade.

"So you sell a product, implying an upgrade possibility, then make the "upgrade" only available for a limited time (since DW is still sold to this day, the "upgrade" time is even before the purchase time if you buy today), and then charge full price for the upgrade later on."

First of all (since I wasn't one of the original community), I'm confused if by "promised as an expansion" means given for free to those who already have everything, or if it just means that it'd be treated as a regular expansion, rather than being a limited time expansion... see that doesn't make sense, I'm going to assume that in every case you meant to use the word "upgrade" instead of "expansion".

"DW:U was promised as [a free upgrade] to the DW community, not a limited time [upgrade]"

So here I ask you. How else do you expect them to implement this promise? As you quoted, it seems they determined who was an original community member based on "details" they had... they emailed everyone offering the upgrade. Due to "logistical constraints" this had to be a limited time offer. So this sounds to me that everyone wasn't simply emailed a key for the expansion, they had to respond to the offer and would then have a key generated and sent to them. This is all I could imagine being the "logistical constraints". But again this is just another case where I take their word for it. They didn't explain it in detail, but they claim there were reasons for not being able to have it just always be available, and I believe them.

At the end of it all, I'd like to request that you try to relax from being so heavily on the consumer side of things. You seem quick to target companies and accuse them of evil doings when in reality, all of this is probably just an oversight on their part. It would be helpful if the developer or someone could chime in here, though I doubt that will happen. In any case, again I request that you be more open to giving people (and companies, which are people too) the benefit of the doubt.

Also, you mentioned that you had considered working on this again, but other than that you didn't really address anything I said... I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts.

Anyway, guess I'll stop myself here. I think I covered everything pretty thoroughly, and once again my post turned out way longer than I imagined... I'd also like to mention that this took quite a while to write, since I was constantly checking your post and doing my best to kinda fact check myself.

(in reply to Locarnus)
Post #: 197
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 5:45:39 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 275
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From: Earth, Sol
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Thank you for your response.

Please excuse my briefness, I would respond more detailed, but I m hesitant to sink more time into this issue, from my point of view it is a discussion from months ago which I m reluctant to warm up again in full.

I think it comes down to this: "A niche market does not only allow you to charge higher (justified) prices for niche games. It also attracts some niche customers who do not just move along with any business practice you throw at them. Some just discontinue their mod, hopefully some teach you this lesson by informing about your business practice in forums/reviews."

I realize that I m not the average "anglican" customer who may not be used to having customer rights and much less used to fighting for them/demanding them.

If you take your niche prices from niche customers, you cant really complain if some of them demand better treatment than what EA customers get, and not worse...


And specifically about the customer/publisher/dev relationship here:
1) If the dev screws up by not making the UI scalable in the first place
2) and if the publisher screws up by not warning customers about this issue when selling the game, to sell more copies

then it is only fair if the money from the additional copies sold due to the lack of warning about the small font goes into fixing this issue for those additional customers without screwing the other costomers who made an informed decision.


If the publisher screws up by
1) not implementing a permanent upgrade possibility
2) not warning customers about this issue when selling the game, to sell more copies

then it is only fair if the publisher has to suck it up and pay for his gross negligence/greed and resolves this issue.


The perpetrator/intentional profiteer of a problem has to pay for it.
Especially if it is not an isolated incident, but appears to be a business practice.

And frankly, after spending about 90€ on that product, I dont care if others (or the publisher/dev, for that matter) find this attitude unreasonable.
While the resolution issue is bad enough and stops me from helping the game/publisher/dev, the non upgrade scam is over the top. And I hope when DW2 or other anticipated matrix games come out, I or someone else has the time to warn potential buyers at review pages/forums about those business practices of retroactively handing down the devs screw ups to customers...


PS: DW:U was never advertised as a free upgrade. It was always advertised as the last of the "addons/expansions/upgrades" for DW, in line with RotS, Legends and Shadows. People bought Shadows a few months before Universe, because they were assured they could upgrade to Universe (no mention of a time limit then). And there is a difference between a warning of non upgradeability on the store page, and an ad for DW:U as the "complete experience".

Also, there are a lot of things that are legally fine, but we refrain from doing them because they are unfair/feel wrong. I assume matrix games/slitherine gets that feeling when infos of those business practices crop up in forums/mouth to mouth conversations and give them a bad name, which is legally fine as well.

Frankly, we all know that such "protests" and "strikes" are not very effective, everyone can see that by looking at EA. But I m curious what happens to a niche publisher when it gets a bad name due to intentionally scammy business practices. (Might not have been intentional from the start, but became intentional when people complained like on the steam thread, and they refused to deal with it instead of giving scammer responeses about logistics, footprint and stuff)

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 12/4/2014 4:43:24 PM >


_____________________________

DW:U BalanceMod v0.9 (extended TechTree)
compatible with DW:U Extended, StarTrek and XPanded

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3624576

(in reply to Varlun)
Post #: 198
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 7:01:32 PM   
Varlun

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/9/2014
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Thank you as well for your response.

I'm actually going to try and keep this one fairly short.

I'm not going to try to specifically refute your points. Because really- and I almost said this at the end of my last post- everything we've both been saying has been nothing more than speculation. Or maybe more accurately, just simple opinions. I'm not sure if you would admit to that since you speak with a very factual tone, but I do. You think they are intentionally scamming, but instead of saying that you simply say that they are. This distinction is important and I'll come back to it.

I see that you are defending your higher than normal, "niche customer" standards. While I'm disappointed that you aren't interested in changing your standards, I'll simply accept it and work from that.

I'm also disappointed that you aren't interested in changing your viewpoint, where- as I mentioned before- you're quick to point fingers and claim that what they are doing is intentional, rather than being a mistake, an oversight, or whatever else. But again I'll just accept this now, and go from here.

So, back to that distinction I made. You have an opinion which you are treating as fact, and based off of that you say things like:

"And I hope when DW2 or other anticipated matrix games come out, I or someone else has the time to warn potential buyers at review pages/forums about those business practices of retroactively handing down the devs screw ups to customers..."

"I'm curious what happens to a niche publisher when it gets a bad name due to intentionally scammy business practices."

Because you are treating your opinion as fact, you're (in my opinion) probably failing to realize that there are other people who would disagree with you- such as myself. And I don't just mean out of ignorance. I mean if you got to really sit down with them and explain your heart out, they would just simply disagree in the end. Because 1) they have a more reasonable set of standards and expectations when it comes to the consumer/developer relationship, and 2) they have a more forgiving viewpoint (like myself)- or are in the middle and aren't quick to speculate either way, choosing to only work off of facts as much as possible.

There is a point here. The reason all this matters is because- and again I don't think you realize it- you are alone in your struggle. You're striking for a cause that people do not support. You're trying to fix a problem that people don't agree even exists. You see the future playing out one way (see above quotes), when in reality it's not even going to come close to something like that, because people simply disagree with you. I'm aware that there hasn't really been time for anyone else to chime in- and this is by no means an invitation for people to start flooding the thread with posts supporting one side or another- but I'd wager that the vast majority of people would disagree with you.

Given this, I'd say that the problem here isn't with the developer or the company. I would in fact (respectfully) say that the problem is you. I don't say this with intentions to harm or attack. I say what I say because I hope that you'll come around. From what I've seen- and I will say in advance that this is most likely colored since I'm only really seeing your frustrated side- you seem to be (while intelligent) aggressive, demanding, and generally unkind.

I wish for you to set aside your malice and join us in enjoying what is undoubtedly the best 4X game there is. A megamod has been created and is still in development, and I think you would enjoy contributing to something that so many people would appreciate. I'm also sure that many people would enjoy contributing ideas and helping to make your mod the best it can be. I'm one of them.

So much for being short. Again, I really hope you'll come around. I, and many others, would love to have you back.

(in reply to Locarnus)
Post #: 199
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/1/2014 7:46:29 PM   
hewwo

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
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Yeah, come back to us Locarnus :) I don't have any opinion on the above, I just want to play my favourite game with this cool mod;)

(in reply to Varlun)
Post #: 200
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/2/2014 8:23:44 AM   
Shogouki


Posts: 156
Joined: 8/11/2013
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I too would be very grateful if you'd come back.

(in reply to hewwo)
Post #: 201
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/2/2014 10:06:36 AM   
feygan

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 3/31/2010
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After reading the last few posts one thing became clear, there was lots of reference to a customer vs dev standpoint. I think you should be very careful with that viewpoint, most of the time you will find yourself in the wrong. A better definition is "customer vs publisher", the developer likely has little to no input on the pricing of a product, nor how it is packaged for release.

You can make the argument about the game code against the developer all you want, but if the publisher refuses to pay for any potential extra work incurred then where does that leave the developer? I agree with many of the points about the business practices here, but you cannot lay the blame for them at the feet of the developer. For all we know they could be locked into a contract that forbids them from speaking out about such issues, would you risk your entire income to do such?

There are some problems that Matrix have and they do indulge in crappy practices, but please make sure you are clear that Matrix are not a developer, they are simply the salesman at your door.

(in reply to Shogouki)
Post #: 202
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/4/2014 4:04:53 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 275
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Varlun

Given this, I'd say that the problem here isn't with the developer or the company. I would in fact (respectfully) say that the problem is you. I don't say this with intentions to harm or attack. I say what I say because I hope that you'll come around. From what I've seen- and I will say in advance that this is most likely colored since I'm only really seeing your frustrated side- you seem to be (while intelligent) aggressive, demanding, and generally unkind.


Well, the "problem isnt the dev/company, its you" combined with the "aggressive, demanding, and generally unkind" (without the "while intelligent") could be a baseline quote from nearly every dispute between few powerful entities and many individually powerless entities thrown in the direction of the latter.

Whether it is/was chain retailers not reimbursing customers for faulty goods, where only the affected and few other fought for that right while being ignored/belittled by the majority, or on a greater scale the general employer/employee relationship.

The few who cared where nearly always belittled, attacked or ignored by the majority and the powerful entity. Until the majority woke up/got educated and/or making amends just became the less costly option for the "powerful entity".

History of individual rights in a nutshell for you...


@feygan:
You are absolutely right, I corrected those last 2 posts to lay the blame where it is, instead of falsely lumping together dev and publisher.

Thank you for that clarification!

< Message edited by Locarnus -- 12/4/2014 5:06:13 PM >


_____________________________

DW:U BalanceMod v0.9 (extended TechTree)
compatible with DW:U Extended, StarTrek and XPanded

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3624576

(in reply to Varlun)
Post #: 203
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/5/2014 9:16:11 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1842
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
You know Locarnus, in my book it's your Mod, you can do as you wish. I have no expectations, and would only express gratitude if this Mod was ever finished.

I agree that the Matrix upgrade policy is completely unreasonable as has been discussed quite a bit on Steam. If you've purchased up to say Shadows, and missed the promotional period, it's just ridiculous to expect an established customer to pay full price for Universe. However, there is no evidence to suggest it's a scam. It may indeed just very difficult in the limited systems of a niche company. That said, they should fix the problem.

So in short, I partly agree, but would never use such a reason to justify stopping work on a Mod. Why? Well perhaps a story would help.

Many years ago I was working in Holland and the bus drivers had a strike. Now where I come from a strike would mean no buses were running and as passengers you would be screwed. But in Holland the buses still ran ... however the twist is that passengers did not have to pay their fare. Think about it for a moment, they avoided harming passengers who were not to blame for the strike. I thought this approach was brilliant.

So again it's your Mod but Matrix do not care at this point whether you do this Mod or not. The only people your decision effects is the community, and so you shouldn't be surprised at the commentary above.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/5/2014 10:17:40 AM >

(in reply to Locarnus)
Post #: 204
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 12/6/2014 12:49:19 AM   
Falokis

 

Posts: 144
Joined: 5/23/2010
Status: offline

quote:

So again it's your Mod but Matrix do not care at this point whether you do this Mod or not. The only people your decision effects is the community, and so you shouldn't be surprised at the commentary above.
Exactly this.

I've been waiting for months for the megamod because I get tired of rebuilding my personal preferences every time there is a big change. Just do it. The players will thank you for it.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 205
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 2/4/2015 5:56:53 PM   
Unforeseen


Posts: 588
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: New Earth
Status: offline
I was just reading this thread and well... http://www.matrixgames.com/store/?k=Distant+WOrlds&m=&g=&p=&v=&t=&d=&a=3&pt=1&searchSubmit=Begin+Search
So if for some reason Universe was not available back when you were having this discussion, it is now.

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Post #: 206
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 2/4/2015 11:15:07 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 477
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

I was just reading this thread and well... http://www.matrixgames.com/store/?k=Distant+WOrlds&m=&g=&p=&v=&t=&d=&a=3&pt=1&searchSubmit=Begin+Search
So if for some reason Universe was not available back when you were having this discussion, it is now.


Thanks for bumping this thread, otherwise I would've never seen it. Hilarious to see the OP freak out over font changes rofl

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(in reply to Unforeseen)
Post #: 207
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 2/4/2015 11:27:13 PM   
Unforeseen


Posts: 588
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: New Earth
Status: offline
Lol I know right. Sure it's his time and effort but he was vastly over-reacting. Then he got mad because we were bashing him for it, but even I would expect to be ridiculed a little bit for having a nervous break down over a font size. I don't think he realized how it looked from our point of view and how frustrating it was because we were all looking forward to his mod and then he suddenly quits it because of something petty and won't let us finish it for him. We STILL don't have a finished research mod. Reloadeds beta isn't even available for download and Starfalls author is missing now. I'm actually thinking about saying F it and playing the game with vanilla tech (yuck).

I was curious about his accusation of fraud and such so I looked up universe and it's been there. The entire time. It was even on sale during the holidays.

Locarnus has a point regarding retailers and really every major corporation atm, but his hostility to matrix is misplaced. There simply seems to be a misunderstanding of priorities here.

< Message edited by Unforeseen -- 2/5/2015 12:31:03 AM >


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(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 208
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 2/4/2015 11:49:08 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 477
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Lol I know right. Sure it's his time and effort but he was vastly over-reacting. Then he got mad because we were bashing him for it, but even I would expect to be ridiculed a little bit for having a nervous break down over a font size. I don't think he realized how it looked from our point of view and how frustrating it was because we were all looking forward to his mod and then he suddenly quits it because of something petty and won't let us finish it for him. We STILL don't have a finished research mod. Reloadeds beta isn't even available for download and Starfalls author is missing now. I'm actually thinking about saying F it and playing the game with vanilla tech (yuck).

I was curious about his accusation of fraud and such so I looked up universe and it's been there. The entire time. It was even on sale during the holidays.

Locarnus has a point regarding retailers and really every major corporation atm, but his hostility to matrix is misplaced. There simply seems to be a misunderstanding of priorities here.


Extremely well said. It's like he realized how dumb he was for freaking out over a font size change and then he comes back three months later and throws out some BS argument about how Matrix "dupes" people. I've bought over twenty games from Matrix, including all of their "premium" titles ($70+) and not once have I been burned.

If he wants to know what being burned is then he should go to the Paradox forums where their moderators can ban you for no reason and then you lose all access to beta patches and mods. Pretty BS (especially since they banned my one account for something I didn't do). I can understand that mods have the right to ban people but as a paying customer your access to post on the forums shouldn't be linked with your ability to access tech support and mods. After spending hundreds with them that pretty much sealed the deal. Haven't looked back since, especially since their games are becoming mainstream (HoI4 doesn't even have NATO counters, rofl). But I digress.

Back to DW....I've owned this game forever but recently just decided to get into it. That's when I stumbled upon this thread and had a good chuckle. But yea, it's a damn shame the other research mods are dead, too.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 2/5/2015 12:54:20 AM >


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(in reply to Unforeseen)
Post #: 209
RE: [DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 - 171 new projects (extended... - 2/5/2015 12:23:16 AM   
Unforeseen


Posts: 588
Joined: 3/26/2013
From: New Earth
Status: offline
I know how you feel. I was banned from Nexus Mods just because one single moderator misunderstood a post I made, he claimed I was being Racist and denied my appeal and IP Blocked me from the entire site. All I did was suggest that the Stormcloaks from Skyrim were similar to the American Confederacy in the Civil War which they are.

Glad to see another player digging into the massive heap of epicness that is Distant Worlds. I can only imagine what DW2 will look like, probably twice as many star systems, better graphics, more races etc. Will be incredible.

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Post #: 210
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