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Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 9:32:56 PM   
Fleshbits

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/29/2014
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I don't know what to do. I cannot get my cashflow out of the red.

The private sector has billions and billions. I have jack squat. I know we need to make them build, but I cannot. Everything has minining stations. There are no more potential colonies within range, I have trade pacts with everyone I have contact with, there are no enemies within range that I can conquer, everything is chalk full of resources so there is nothing to transport....

The only room for improvement really is colony growth and they are growing hideously slow. I don't know why. I have growth rates of 3 and 4%, whereas last game they were 30-50%.

My race base is 14% and every colony is +30-+50 happiness and has all the luxury goods I have available.
Post #: 1
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 10:09:37 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 3994
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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Resort bases, as many as you can queue up to build. It takes a while but once you have a good tourism industry going, it'll earn you a large bonus income. For now scrap some ships/bases to get your costs down.

The extra passenger ships that get built to service the resort bases will also help colonies grow by transporting colonists from large pop worlds to new colonies.


Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 6/1/2014 11:11:46 PM >


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RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 10:12:57 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7888
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
I have a question first: How many space ports do you have versus how many colonies?

Too many space ports can cause a lot of economy headaches.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 3
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 10:27:25 PM   
Modest

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/26/2011
From: Warsaw, Poland
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Also, tell us how high are taxes, and how many planets are taxed at all - it might be good idea to tax Your most populated planets even up to 35% (if they are maxed) or higher (if morale does allow it).

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 4
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 11:24:30 PM   
Spidey


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Joined: 12/8/2013
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I'm guessing you've begun taxing too soon, Fleshy. It's one of the major challenges of races with slow growth to resist the spending temptation long enough but you have to keep expenses down and zero tax as much as possible until you've built up your population numbers. Otherwise you're going to start spending like normal and then the hugely limited 3-4% growth rates will lock you up pretty good.

Things like the medical wonders and the trade wonders are obviously useful but that's not really a short term fix. What I'd do in your situation is probably to kill most of those colony bases since they probably have an upkeep of nearly 1000 each. I'd also consider very carefully how many troops I need and get rid of those I don't. I'd go through my space port designs and trim them down too, if possible. I'd make sure that practically all my labs (except what's needed for research bonuses) and long range scanners are on civilian mining stations that I don't pay maintenance for instead of on state bases that cost me money. I'd go through my navy very carefully and trim down the fat as much as possible. Then I'd go through the civilian ships and make sure they're up to date, giving the civilians a chance to retrofit, which would earn me some money.

I'd also set tax to zero on any colony that isn't either at max pop or has a GDP of at least 100k. The growth reduction simply isn't worth it for the money you're making. Check corruption, by the way. It tends to be pretty rough on the amount of money that makes it through, even in WotA. What is your foreign assimilation policy like? Role-play might dictate racial purity but letting them in means more people, meaning more tax payers. For that reason I generally prefer double assimilate.

Oh, and if you've got a space port in every system then, well, that might be a bit of an overkill. You don't need that massive a production capability and you are paying the upkeep for them regardless of whether they're used or not.

< Message edited by Spidey -- 6/2/2014 3:14:53 AM >

(in reply to Modest)
Post #: 5
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 11:39:50 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
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I am no expert, but my understanding is that the most frequent cause of financial difficulties is too many colonies too early. New colonies lose money early on, especially if they begin without any population (which is why it is better to capture established colonies than to start them). Keeping taxes high will also keep population growth low, so creating a lot of new colonies then taxing the heck out of them early on is a recipe for disaster. And the higher the difficulty level, the more this is true.

Henri

Edit: oops, Spidey beat me to it...

< Message edited by henri51 -- 6/2/2014 12:40:52 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/1/2014 11:46:26 PM   
Fleshbits

 

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The thing is, my growth rate isn't going up even if I do set 0% tax.

I've got all my colonies with growing populations at 5% and my home colony at 30%, because I have to in order to even stay in the game.

I could probably kill off all my troops as pirates are quite beaten down at this point. But that would only get me 5k or so out of my 50k deficit.

I've got 4 colonies right now and none are max pop.

I was thinking of going to war just in order to get another planet that has any income. Take out my neighbors home planet and tax his citizens. He somehow has 8 defense bases though! :/

There still is the unanswered question though of why is growth rate 4% if they have +40 happiness and my base growth rate is 14%? What has made it so low?

Here is a link to my save game if anyone has the patience to download it and take a look:
http://christopherpisz.strangled.net/temp/DWSave.zip

I also don't understand how a colony "costs" me. People say things like colonizing < 70% quality planet "costs" you. What does it cost exactly? The colony itself doesn't impose any fees that I can see. The maintenence of the spaceport? It's like 1k..The defending fleet? What if I don't give it one? The cost of the coonizing ship? What is the cost they speak of? Surely, if I can get a planet to even give me 3k in tax, then I can be ahead if I just plop a small barebones spaceport on it, right?



< Message edited by Fleshbits -- 6/2/2014 1:05:24 AM >

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 7
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 1:12:30 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7888
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From: The Big Nowhere
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Basically, welcome to the early game.

Most likely, you don't have enough construction ships or mines to support your colonies yet. As you get mines built, and accept smuggling missions for the time being, it will turn itself around.

Look into your expansion planner, click on the unfulfilled category twice to bring up the biggest number and see what it is. You need to build mines to get that type of resource. Just go down the list looking at what you need the most of (unfulfilled) versus what you have sources for and no sources for. You can guess where to go from there.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Fleshbits)
Post #: 8
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 1:17:03 AM   
Fleshbits

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/29/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Basically, welcome to the early game.

Most likely, you don't have enough construction ships or mines to support your colonies yet. As you get mines built, and accept smuggling missions for the time being, it will turn itself around.

Look into your expansion planner, click on the unfulfilled category twice to bring up the biggest number and see what it is. You need to build mines to get that type of resource. Just go down the list looking at what you need the most of (unfulfilled) versus what you have sources for and no sources for. You can guess where to go from there.


Like I said, everything in the unfilled column is zero.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 9
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 3:24:38 AM   
DeadlyShoe


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Joined: 6/2/2013
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a newly colonized planet costs 3.33k to maintain right out of your taxes, it takes a while for them to develop enough to not actually be costing you money. Don't have time to look at the save now or i would.

what's your tax rate/compliance on your home planet?

a screenshot of your empire budget summary would be ace.

(in reply to Fleshbits)
Post #: 10
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 4:19:30 AM   
Spidey


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Joined: 12/8/2013
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Okay, I took a look at your save, and a few things I feel like pointing out...

1) Planetary defense forces are sort of not worth it at all unless your enemy is bringing in some serious invasion forces. Kill those eight troops and you'll cut costs by 25k. Replace with 16 regular troops at 810 each at you'll have about the same defense at the cost of just 13k upkeep. That's at least 12k saved.

2) Your combined tax income from your four smallest colonies is less than 1k. It's not worth it to tax them.

3a) Having a bunch of different mining station designs might seem sensible, since specialization is usually the best approach to things, but remember that those paying the bill for maintenance are the civilians, and the civilians in DW are freaking loaded. It doesn't matter if the luxury mining component isn't being used. It's their dime. Also, if you don't let the civilians decide to upgrade on their own, you'll be paying for the upgrade out of your own pocket. If they make the call, they pay.

3b) The happy days where the number of mining engines alone decided how fast you pulled out resources are long gone. Two does the trick just fine and three is, IMO, the most you'll ever want to put on a mining station.

3c) As a consequence of 3a and 3b, I recommend you center on one unified gas mining station design and one unified ore mining station design. Let them have all the party favors and all the cool things you can think of. One of the first things I did was to obsolete your old mining stations and replace them with my own design that has 2 (gas) mining engines, 1 lux, 1 lab of each kind, 1 long range sensor, 2 fighter bays because why not, 3-4 shields, 10 armor, and enough energy collectors to stay in style. And they're on auto retrofit too, of course.

4) A space port over each colony is wasteful. Sorry to be blunt, but it really, really is. Take those small ports away and you'll save 5k upkeep.

5) You've got research capacity overkill like mad. Your research capacity is 1200k while your potential is only 544k. I know research is fun but there's no point to paying for labs you're not using.

6) Your large space port has a long range scanner, maxos blasters and missiles, and 4 of each plant. The scanner can just as well be outsourced to the private sector, the maxos blasters and the missiles are worthless, and 1 plant can feed 25-30 construction yards, so 4 of each is a bit on the redundant side. Cut those away and you can reduce the power supply by a lot. And that allows you to reduce the energy collectors by a lot. Which in turn means much lower maintenance. Replace the crap weapons with four fighter bays. Less power. Cut down excess labs. Even less power. After I shrunk it down some, the maintenance dropped instantly to 3300 from 4800.

7) You've got a whole heck of a lot of military ships, don't you? 20 escorts, 20 frigates, and 15 destroyers. And you're not even at war with anyone aside from the pirates. The thing is, all those ships are costing you 46k in maintenance and most of them aren't even all that strong.

8) Two construction yards on a construction ship doesn't actually mean twice the speed, at least not as far as I know.

9) It's generally a lot more useful to research the commerce and governance tech lines than, well, most of the other things in High Tech. Long range scanners, the first colonization, upping crew systems to 85 size per unit, and getting med and rec facilities are good. Getting standard transport and storage is good. Getting enhanced resource exploration is good. But after getting those things sorted out, one really should consider very carefully if econ boosting techs might be in order.

10) Your leader is kind of terrible. His stats gives -20% happiness and -10% growth and they're not skills either, so he won't ever improve those. Replace him and hope for a new leader with growth and happiness as skills.

(in reply to Fleshbits)
Post #: 11
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 5:25:54 AM   
Fleshbits

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/29/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

Okay, I took a look at your save, and a few things I feel like pointing out...

1) Planetary defense forces are sort of not worth it at all unless your enemy is bringing in some serious invasion forces. Kill those eight troops and you'll cut costs by 25k. Replace with 16 regular troops at 810 each at you'll have about the same defense at the cost of just 13k upkeep. That's at least 12k saved.

2) Your combined tax income from your four smallest colonies is less than 1k. It's not worth it to tax them.

3a) Having a bunch of different mining station designs might seem sensible, since specialization is usually the best approach to things, but remember that those paying the bill for maintenance are the civilians, and the civilians in DW are freaking loaded. It doesn't matter if the luxury mining component isn't being used. It's their dime. Also, if you don't let the civilians decide to upgrade on their own, you'll be paying for the upgrade out of your own pocket. If they make the call, they pay.

3b) The happy days where the number of mining engines alone decided how fast you pulled out resources are long gone. Two does the trick just fine and three is, IMO, the most you'll ever want to put on a mining station.

3c) As a consequence of 3a and 3b, I recommend you center on one unified gas mining station design and one unified ore mining station design. Let them have all the party favors and all the cool things you can think of. One of the first things I did was to obsolete your old mining stations and replace them with my own design that has 2 (gas) mining engines, 1 lux, 1 lab of each kind, 1 long range sensor, 2 fighter bays because why not, 3-4 shields, 10 armor, and enough energy collectors to stay in style. And they're on auto retrofit too, of course.

4) A space port over each colony is wasteful. Sorry to be blunt, but it really, really is. Take those small ports away and you'll save 5k upkeep.

5) You've got research capacity overkill like mad. Your research capacity is 1200k while your potential is only 544k. I know research is fun but there's no point to paying for labs you're not using.

6) Your large space port has a long range scanner, maxos blasters and missiles, and 4 of each plant. The scanner can just as well be outsourced to the private sector, the maxos blasters and the missiles are worthless, and 1 plant can feed 25-30 construction yards, so 4 of each is a bit on the redundant side. Cut those away and you can reduce the power supply by a lot. And that allows you to reduce the energy collectors by a lot. Which in turn means much lower maintenance. Replace the crap weapons with four fighter bays. Less power. Cut down excess labs. Even less power. After I shrunk it down some, the maintenance dropped instantly to 3300 from 4800.

7) You've got a whole heck of a lot of military ships, don't you? 20 escorts, 20 frigates, and 15 destroyers. And you're not even at war with anyone aside from the pirates. The thing is, all those ships are costing you 46k in maintenance and most of them aren't even all that strong.

8) Two construction yards on a construction ship doesn't actually mean twice the speed, at least not as far as I know.

9) It's generally a lot more useful to research the commerce and governance tech lines than, well, most of the other things in High Tech. Long range scanners, the first colonization, upping crew systems to 85 size per unit, and getting med and rec facilities are good. Getting standard transport and storage is good. Getting enhanced resource exploration is good. But after getting those things sorted out, one really should consider very carefully if econ boosting techs might be in order.

10) Your leader is kind of terrible. His stats gives -20% happiness and -10% growth and they're not skills either, so he won't ever improve those. Replace him and hope for a new leader with growth and happiness as skills.


Excellant Feedback. Thanks so much for taking a look! Time to take action!

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 12
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 7:39:10 AM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline
Spidey, did you by chance check a couple of things on the save that I found was killing my economy until I rumbled them:

1. commodity price, particularly steel @1.8 - this was causing big maintenance bills
2. private sector freighters didn't have FTL drives (even though I thought I had automated design/upgrade on them)

The latter increased my trade income from 10-20k to 200-300k as soon as a few freighters got upgraded. I think disabled automatic ship design in empire settings and then set private sector freighters to automatic design/upgrade in the design screens - which doesn't work it seems.

(in reply to Fleshbits)
Post #: 13
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 11:20:52 AM   
Spidey


Posts: 399
Joined: 12/8/2013
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Those are very good things to be on the lookout for, Gregorovitch, but I don't think they're holding Fleshbits' economy back. His strategics are all priced at 0.8, he's got some 14 steel sources, and all his civilian ships have fully powered Gerax 3 warp drives.

But I agree that both resource shortages and design limitations can do bad things to en economy. Personally I never bother with automated design, though. I need that hands on control to avoid silly designs. I do use the "automatic upgrade" button from time to time to quickly replace older components with newer components, but I always go through such upgrades manually to make sure they're okay.

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 14
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 11:42:07 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1843
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
Great community support here all!!!

Some other suggestions:

1. The happiness on your homeworld is +26 so you could chose to increase the tax rate further (although that will hamper population growth a lot).

2. Lots of money could be made from Technology Selling to other Empires (although this needs to be nerfed).

3. You need to build mines for Aculon, Dilithium Crystal and Emeros Crystal (Strategic Resources without a current source). Looks like Dilithium will need some Exploration ... indeed you only have 3 Exploration Ships .. I would recommend a lot more. Plenty of cool stuff to find around the galaxy!

4. Some Wonders can be very helpful. You are better off doing a bee-line to Wonders you are interested in that doing a mix e.g. Traders Bazaar.

And +100% Espionage for your Intelligence Agent ... double wow!


< Message edited by Icemania -- 6/2/2014 12:42:47 PM >

(in reply to Spidey)
Post #: 15
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 11:55:14 AM   
Red Dawn

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline
I don't know ,if you will feel it's ,morally correct,its more like a cheat,but you could always borrow money from the private sector.
Step 1:
Just save a very cheap mining station design,just the basic stuff and save that design.
Step 2:
Save another design with very expensive components,for example add like 200 resource profile sensors or something in the design ,the build cost will be tremendous.
Step 3:
Build the mining station as saved in step 1,from nearest constructor ship.
Step 4:
Right click and Retrofit that cheap mining station to design in step 2,you will get the cash for retrofitting,private sector pays for it.ahhhhhhhhh and dont forget to scrap mining station as soon as you extort the private sector,scrap it the second you get the cash,don't let it retrofit.
or the maintainance of that ming station will kill the private sector.


200 X resource profile sensor will easily make the cost go to around 80 k i'm telling from my experience and game play,or you could put other expensive components as game advances ,late game ion defense is the most expensive component per unit size,you could build bigger and more expensive mining station design as construction tech rises.Once in my late game i built a mining station that cost 400,0000 to build,obviously i received same once i retrofit that cheap station to this design.Ahhhhhhh and do these fake project on low percentage resource planet,that way you don't waste a good mining site by frequent projects.A good mining site must get a proper mining station not a cheap one.



Process is the same,just build cheap mining station design retrofit ,rake the cash,its like a fake government extortion project,but don't overdo it or you will destroy the private sector,so keep watch over the private sector cash.

I keep track of how much cash i want private sector to have,i stop after i reach that limit

There are many advantages of this,you could tax the colony at 0 percent and still borrow 100 percent of the gdp with these fake projects.the colony will keep growing till it maxes out.

Ofcourse if you prefer the clean way don't wanna use this exploit,just build more stuff at your colonies,like military ships,retrofit mining stations more often as new research becomes available,this will spur demand for resources and private sector will build more ships

Legit tips to colony growth are:
1.have atleast 6 luxuries at colony,more luxuries have better effect,i try to have atleast 6(jakanta ivory,wiconium and terralion down,megallius nuts are easily available)
2.have all the strategic resources at colony.
above two will cause colony population to grow at maximum rate.
3,when you have enough cash let colonies have tax breaks,only till population maxes out ofcourse.

More on next post...



< Message edited by Red Dawn -- 6/2/2014 1:42:01 PM >

(in reply to Fleshbits)
Post #: 16
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/2/2014 12:10:06 PM   
Red Dawn

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline
Few More Tips:
1.Buy empire contacts early on,Selling tech is lucrative.
2.Go for hi tech research whenever possible,advanced medicomplex and stuff,traders bazaar.
3.Get trade bonus tech(commerce center) to maximum,you will be paid for every resource movement,whenever someone reserves goods in colony(with spaceport)you get paid trade bonus,
or when freighter books cargo in mining station(only if its being demanded not being stocked).
4.Expansion planner is key to checking demand,be advised you will only be paid trade bonus on movement of resources which show that are being demanded by civilians,once demand is fullfilled no trade bonus,but yes freighters will still haul cargo to home world or colonies but only to stock.
5.In mining station design there is a cap of 12 extraction,any more mining engine are a waste
on gas extractors cap is 80 i think any more are waste,do this and you will save private sector loads of cash.
6. get the maintanence tech to full(command center).
7.Find way of ancients(archival refuge) as soon as possible,if you find way of darkness use it till you find way of ancients.
8.Repair Ancient ships for tech bonus and then retire them for tech,more better the tech more stronger you get.
9.Dont forget its 4X explore expand,exploit exterminate.
10,have enough troops on the ground or you are busted,no super star base can protect colony for ground invasion.
11,if you are borrowing private sector cash,see above post,you will have enough to crash research most tech,but don't over do it

thats my playstyle,going for hi tech ,i tend to pay off everyone till i want war or am ready for
war.

< Message edited by Red Dawn -- 6/2/2014 1:18:39 PM >

(in reply to Red Dawn)
Post #: 17
RE: Economy Stalling - 6/3/2014 6:16:26 AM   
Fleshbits

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/29/2014
Status: offline
Excellant tips guys. I am now happily owning my neightbors and raking in 3 million a year :) Victory is surely mine.

(in reply to Red Dawn)
Post #: 18
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