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Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/21/2014 8:59:53 PM   
Agiel

 

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So I was running some tests on some mid 90's platforms. When I got to the DD173 Kongo (Japanese Arleigh Burke)against the Sovremenny, I noticed that even with the Kongo having its radars and OECM on at full blast the Sovremenny's ESM was totally incapable of detecting the Kongo's emissions. Even as the Sovremenny closes in on the Kongo, she detects her using surface-search radar instead.

I tried adding a Kara (which is a far more comparable vessel to an Aegis destroyer), which was indeed capable of detecting the Kongo's emissions. Does SPY-1 and other Aegis arrays have LPI capabilities against older and less capable ESM sensors?
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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/21/2014 9:10:27 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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It's because the Sovremenny doesn't have an OTH ESM system, but does have an OTH Radar. The Kara, on the other hand, has an OTH ELINT(Rum Tub).

Also, the Kara's are over a decade older than the Sovremenny's.

< Message edited by ExNusquam -- 5/21/2014 10:12:33 PM >

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/21/2014 9:26:35 PM   
ComDev

 

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There was also an error with the Sovremenny's ESM gear in that it only covered H-J bands while SPY-1 operates in G band. I fixed this 2-3 months back so rebuilding the scenario with the latest database might solve the problem. This explains why you only detect the surface search radar which is I band.

Thanks!

< Message edited by emsoy -- 5/21/2014 10:28:29 PM >


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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/21/2014 9:36:31 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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I can't find any data to support the Aegis SPY-1 radar having LPI

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/radar

quote:

The AN/SPY-3 is the first U.S. shipboard AESA, which will first go into Zumwalt-class destroyers but may be retrofitted; it adds significant capability for littoral operations, making amphibious warfare ships an obvious candidate.



AN/SPY-3 would be the first AESA ship radar, which would be capabloe of having such capability.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 5/21/2014 10:41:31 PM >

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/22/2014 8:42:02 PM   
ComDev

 

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It is not. Each array transmit 1+ MW

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/22/2014 11:05:32 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

It is not. Each array transmit 1+ MW


When you can fry a helicopter at 2 nm, you know it's powerful.
quote:

ORIGINAL: A1-H60BB-NFM-000


Due to the adverse effects of EMI on aircraft operating in the vicinity of
SPY--1 radar, SH--60B aircraft should not close within 2 nm of CG--47 or
DDG--51 class ships unless SPY--1 is operating at lowpower, the controller
has broken data link, and the helicopter track has been dropped. Prior to
takeoff on these class of ships, aircraft commanders should ensure that
Hawk Link is in standby (following removal of the hardwire) and not
placed to radiate until the aircraft is 2 nm clear of own ship.

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/22/2014 11:38:40 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Facinating stuff, thanks for that info ExNusquam.

At least Aegis has a low power mode lol.

If it will mess up aircraft at 2nm at higher power, what will it do to an Anti-ship missile?

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/karte503.en.html]

From the above site, average power is 58 kilowatts, peak power is 4 to 6 Megawatts!! That might burn through some jamming.

Later models have higher output power from this site: http://mostlymissiledefense.com/2012/08/03/ballistic-missile-defense-the-aegis-spy-1-radar-august-3-2012/

Would be neat if we could model this in the sim.






Edit: ExNusquam, the copy of that document I found was from 2008 and rated as Distribution Statement "C" for defense contractors and govt. agencies only. Was this cleared for public release in a later revision? Or is there an older version that's public?

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 5/23/2014 2:00:49 PM >

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/23/2014 7:08:29 PM   
DirtyFred


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Aegis SPY-1 radar does not have LPI capability, it is ESA not AESA. AESA can do LPI, advanced ESM/RWR sensors can detect LPI radars, directional information about the emission and pass that on to other platforms that can also search for similar emissions they might have detected.

the data of all the aircraft in one flight or across several flights could put together the direction to and rough range for a radar operating in LPI mode.


< Message edited by DirtyFred -- 5/23/2014 8:10:11 PM >

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/24/2014 4:38:59 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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quote:

Edit: ExNusquam, the copy of that document I found was from 2008 and rated as Distribution Statement "C" for defense contractors and govt. agencies only. Was this cleared for public release in a later revision? Or is there an older version that's public?

The doc I'm using dates to 2000. I don't remember where/when I found it, but I checked and it also carries a "C" distribution statement. Which is interesting because there's a US company that sells the 2000 revision publicly...

Either way, it is declassified info.

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RE: Aegis arrays have LPI? - 5/24/2014 5:16:12 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

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Good to know, thanks ExNusquam, certainly interesting fact about the power of the PESA AEGIS radar's capabilities.

quote:

advanced ESM/RWR sensors can detect LPI radars, directional information about the emission and pass that on to other platforms that can also search for similar emissions they might have detected.


Low Probability of Intercept doesn't mean NO probability of intercept, but it creates a very complex problem for a RWR to know an LPI system is looking at. Also depends on the processing power of the emitting LPI radar vs computational power of the RWR.

from F-16.net, a raptor pilot mentioned this about the LPI vs RWR's

quote:

One of the so called Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) modes of operation possible with AESA radar works like this. Instead of forming one beam at full power and searching for targets that way, the radar forms hundreds of very weak but very precise beams. The aggregate power output is the same, but at any one point in time on any one bearing the signal is basically at the same level as the background hiss. The frequency is also randomized but logged by the LPI radar. To a RWR there is nothing but the same background hiss as the rest of the sky. But the LPI radar knows to look for a specific hiss level spike on a specific frequency for a specific bearing at a specific time. It integrates these over time. If nearly every single time slice shows hiss level spike at the identified frequency for that bearing and time slice, there is a return. If it shows random spikes and valleys there's nothing there.

In order to do this the radar must have the ability to generate hundreds of different beams at varying frequencies all at once. This requires an AESA. Only the transmitting AESA radar has the when, at what frequency and down what bearing to look for the a particular hiss behavior. The RWR which does not have the specific log of when at what frequency the very weak signals should be arriving over time only sees background static.


< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 5/24/2014 8:32:26 PM >

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