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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games?

 
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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 3:21:07 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1737
Joined: 9/1/2004
From: Toronto Ontario
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

It seems that the grandaddy of tactical games, Steel Panthers (Matrix version, not the other one), is fading into the past, and there is no successor to it in the offing. Why is this? It looks as if "simpler" games such as Panzercorps are taking over, which disappoints me. Oh, well, I still play SPWAW (the Enhanced Version) and enjoy it very much. If that makes me a dinosaur in the gaming world then so be it.


The Title of the thread reads, "What's Become of Tactical WWII Games?".

What exactly do you mean by that. Are you suggesting there is nothing new? Are you saying that what is being made is not interesting to you. Are you only bemoaning the lack of a Steel Panthers type successor?

There are only really 4 Companies making any new WW2 computer wargames at all. Matrix/Slitherine, John Tiller, Graviteam and Battlefront. There are some reasonable tactical games available from them but I presume you don't care for them.

That does not necessarily mean that there is any situation different now to what there was since computer wargames have been produced. If you check the tactical wargamer list of tactical wargames released you will see that there have been more in the last 9 years than from 1990 to 1999.

Here is a link: http://tacticalwargamer.com/computergames/computergames.htm

You can draw your own conclusions.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 31
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 4:41:06 PM   
wodin


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From: England
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I think he means a monster type tactical wargame, a GGWITE, WITPAE for the tactical gamer. I'm loving CM Red Thunder and can't wait for Graviteam Tactics Muis Front but I still yearn for a tactical game with the detail of ASL but WEGO and individual casualties per unit. Or a game that really looks outside the box and makes you a Coy upto Regiment commander, one using planning maps, radio and runner orders, proper fow pre attack\defense briefing where you issue all the relevant SOP's (extensive SOP choices). Prob low on the graphic front (well beautiful maps\Ui etc etc) but more reliant on text feedback and your imagination. Throw in individual leader stats for your units, issue medals, issue leave, dish out punishments, plan and issue defense orders (i.e build trenches, Anti Tank Gun bunkers etc), Plan then issue attack orders etc. Al using maps (Attack Plan Map (with Arty plotting overlay), Defense Plan Map, Engineering Map, and finally the battle map which gets updated as the info comes in from your units (You can even leave your HQ to go the front line to gather info but whilst away things could be going wrong elsewhere). The maps is where you organise your forces (or in the innerspring map you plot your new trench system to be dug or place the bunkers to be built, lay minefields, which then updates once built\layed on your other maps). You either send runners or use radio to request upto date info or issue new commands and also receive info. You deal during the actual combat part with Arty requests, request for reinforcements (if you have any), request to retreat, dig in etc etc and other minor and major emergencies aswell as issue new unit orders. The units under your command perform aswell as their leader aswell as your planning and orders. Leaders will have hidden stats\traits aswell as visible stats that can be negative or positive, watch how they perform to work out what they may be good at and what they aren't good at then make the necessary adjustments. Out of combat train your troops on areas they might not be good at, send your NCO's and Officers to courses that may improve their prospects, keep moral up, deal with any reinforcements they might be soldiers returning from being wounded (you may have got your star officer back) though keep an eye out incase there are any side effects from the wounds (maybe you have a report they froze under fire). You get reports from your various staff officers and see an updated list of all your soldiers, rank, known stats, combat history, medals and finally any Officer comments.

Anyway getting carried away here.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/30/2014 6:00:09 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 4:52:27 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3415
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

It looks as if "simpler" games such as Panzercorps are taking over, which disappoints me.

So is Panzer Corps much "simplier" than Panzer General? And what comes to first question (thread title), those became Combat Mission and Achtung Panzer

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 33
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 7:05:39 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1737
Joined: 9/1/2004
From: Toronto Ontario
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think he means a monster type tactical wargame, a GGWITE, WITPAE for the tactical gamer. I'm loving CM Red Thunder and can't wait for Graviteam Tactics Muis Front but I still yearn for a tactical game with the detail of ASL but WEGO and individual casualties per unit. Or a game that really looks outside the box and makes you a Coy upto Regiment commander, one using planning maps, radio and runner orders, proper fow pre attack\defense briefing where you issue all the relevant SOP's (extensive SOP choices). Prob low on the graphic front (well beautiful maps\Ui etc etc) but more reliant on text feedback and your imagination. Throw in individual leader stats for your units, issue medals, issue leave, dish out punishments, plan and issue defense orders (i.e build trenches, Anti Tank Gun bunkers etc), Plan then issue attack orders etc. Al using maps (Attack Plan Map (with Arty plotting overlay), Defense Plan Map, Engineering Map, and finally the battle map which gets updated as the info comes in from your units (You can even leave your HQ to go the front line to gather info but whilst away things could be going wrong elsewhere). The maps is where you organise your forces (or in the innerspring map you plot your new trench system to be dug or place the bunkers to be built, lay minefields, which then updates once built\layed on your other maps). You either send runners or use radio to request upto date info or issue new commands and also receive info. You deal during the actual combat part with Arty requests, request for reinforcements (if you have any), request to retreat, dig in etc etc and other minor and major emergencies aswell as issue new unit orders. The units under your command perform aswell as their leader aswell as your planning and orders. Leaders will have hidden stats\traits aswell as visible stats that can be negative or positive, watch how they perform to work out what they may be good at and what they aren't good at then make the necessary adjustments. Out of combat train your troops on areas they might not be good at, send your NCO's and Officers to courses that may improve their prospects, keep moral up, deal with any reinforcements they might be soldiers returning from being wounded (you may have got your star officer back) though keep an eye out incase there are any side effects from the wounds (maybe you have a report they froze under fire). You get reports from your various staff officers and see an updated list of all your soldiers, rank, known stats, combat history, medals and finally any Officer comments.

Anyway getting carried away here.


Yipes!! That sounds more like a job than a game.........

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 34
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 7:27:00 PM   
TheGrayMouser

 

Posts: 291
Joined: 7/12/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think he means a monster type tactical wargame, a GGWITE, WITPAE for the tactical gamer. I'm loving CM Red Thunder and can't wait for Graviteam Tactics Muis Front but I still yearn for a tactical game with the detail of ASL but WEGO and individual casualties per unit. Or a game that really looks outside the box and makes you a Coy upto Regiment commander, one using planning maps, radio and runner orders, proper fow pre attack\defense briefing where you issue all the relevant SOP's (extensive SOP choices). Prob low on the graphic front (well beautiful maps\Ui etc etc) but more reliant on text feedback and your imagination. Throw in individual leader stats for your units, issue medals, issue leave, dish out punishments, plan and issue defense orders (i.e build trenches, Anti Tank Gun bunkers etc), Plan then issue attack orders etc. Al using maps (Attack Plan Map (with Arty plotting overlay), Defense Plan Map, Engineering Map, and finally the battle map which gets updated as the info comes in from your units (You can even leave your HQ to go the front line to gather info but whilst away things could be going wrong elsewhere). The maps is where you organise your forces (or in the innerspring map you plot your new trench system to be dug or place the bunkers to be built, lay minefields, which then updates once built\layed on your other maps). You either send runners or use radio to request upto date info or issue new commands and also receive info. You deal during the actual combat part with Arty requests, request for reinforcements (if you have any), request to retreat, dig in etc etc and other minor and major emergencies aswell as issue new unit orders. The units under your command perform aswell as their leader aswell as your planning and orders. Leaders will have hidden stats\traits aswell as visible stats that can be negative or positive, watch how they perform to work out what they may be good at and what they aren't good at then make the necessary adjustments. Out of combat train your troops on areas they might not be good at, send your NCO's and Officers to courses that may improve their prospects, keep moral up, deal with any reinforcements they might be soldiers returning from being wounded (you may have got your star officer back) though keep an eye out incase there are any side effects from the wounds (maybe you have a report they froze under fire). You get reports from your various staff officers and see an updated list of all your soldiers, rank, known stats, combat history, medals and finally any Officer comments.

Anyway getting carried away here.


Haha, steel panthers would be considered checkers or tiddlywinks compared to what you described!

Doesn't HPS Tigers Unleashed approach this level of detail at the tactical level?

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 35
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 11:39:30 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10645
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
NO Tigers isn't like that at all. When it's finally finished it will be he most comprehensive tactical wargame out there though.

z1812..true..but if you throw in that role play feel and attachment to your troops leaders it would be highly immersive. It would be the tactical wargame inequivalent though of Aurora space game (with decent graphics though).

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Post #: 36
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 8:13:06 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Joined: 9/11/2013
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I'd still prefer K.I.S.S. type of Steel Panterslike game in the future. Too much detail and depth and the ai will be non-existant. They already nearly are in everything that comes out. Take Rome II for example: look at all the work they are having to put into patching that thing and it's still a mess. But, take a game like EMPIRE or EMPIRE deluxe and it hardly needs anything but a graphics face lift. Much like a Steel Panthers II would need. Icons like Panzer Corps and detail like Steel Panthers.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 37
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 2:10:17 PM   
Max 86


Posts: 709
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

When it's finally finished it will be he most comprehensive tactical wargame out there though.



I saw it was for sale, US$50 for e-download. Is there something about it that leaves it unfinished? Looks amazing though. Might have to take a look, especially since it has a map editor. Not sure about other editing features though. Of course, its an east front game! .

I could of swore I read somewhere that WW2 covered most of the planet and not just the terrain between Berlin and Moscow. Maybe that was just internet hype!

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No problem Chief!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 38
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 3:32:00 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10645
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Max I've been working with Scott for a good two years now..really there is only Scott, two others and myself testing and fixing. It's such a complex piece of code that things can take along time to fix and add things to. It is much better at the moment than on release and over the last 9 months or so alot of code has been re written. The current beta test build is looking OK but the game still needs some more features like extra SOP's plus the AI is abit wonkey and that is being looked at now. Also at present at the extreme level of realism (which is really how it should be played) I would say it is very niche and an acquired taste. Eventually it will be superb..but thats still a long way off yet..however it will get there, Scott has said he wont stop until it's the way it should be and fullfills it's potential. No one would believe the amount of man hours and work that is constantly going into it (the emails from just me to Scott alone must easy be well over a thousand)..but there is..it just a very slow process. One good thing recently though is alo of the code thats been re written will make it easier to work with.

I can say a West front version is being made that will cover early West front. I'm going to make sure the scenarios that come wih that one are great. A major issue with TU was the scenarios with the game border from OK to pretty poor indeed again though once the game is running well I'm going to redo them all to make them much more enjoyable which will get released with a future patch.

So at the moment I'd say hold off..I will announce the game is great once we get there:)

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/1/2014 4:37:50 PM >


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Post #: 39
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 4:24:54 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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I have tigers unleashed and appreciate its high level of detail with fog of war and scott has been very helpful getting onto and fixing some issues i raised with him in regard to the AI doing some odd things lile excessive and aggressive friendly fire against themesleves in their own hex.
Wodin if you are in contact with scott, do you know where things are at the moment with its next patch? I hope scott is doing okay at the moment.

Let us not forget also Schwerpunkt Games - they are still to be bringing out their massive Ww2 War in Europe game which will be very good. I have RussoGerman War and find its system very good and easy to work with once you know how the Ui works.

Great big detailed games like what grigsby and schwerpunkt games do must stem from a developer also being a passionate WW2/military/history enthusiast - the current crop of games coming out on steam and other platforms do not seem come from this place, perhaps people feel the best games in this catgegory have been done now?

I think the creator of DC Case Blue could make a grand Ww2 that would bring a good system to the mix - is that at the tactical level still

Perhaps someone needs to attempt what Fortress Europe Liberation of France was attempting - that buried forgotten mess of 'game' ...i bougt a copy of this cheap recently just to see what it was like and boy it really really was terrible and hope everyone who bought it was refunded in full - but what it was attempting was a good idea - like Wargamer 1813

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 40
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 5:56:35 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline
Just got a beta test update today. Once he has looked at and sorted the AI I will get him to release a new patch.

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Post #: 41
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 6:21:22 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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that would be awesome@!!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 42
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 6:24:43 PM   
Max 86


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Wodin,

Sounds great and very promising! I'll be waiting for your word that it is ready to go.

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 43
RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 5/1/2014 6:34:49 PM   
Qwixt


Posts: 901
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
-Socrates ~400 BC




I love this quote. It shows that nothing has changed in 1000s of years.

(in reply to RoryAndersonWS)
Post #: 44
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