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What's Become of Tactical WWII Games?

 
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What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 2:08:20 AM   
KG Erwin


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It seems that the grandaddy of tactical games, Steel Panthers (Matrix version, not the other one), is fading into the past, and there is no successor to it in the offing. Why is this? It looks as if "simpler" games such as Panzercorps are taking over, which disappoints me. Oh, well, I still play SPWAW (the Enhanced Version) and enjoy it very much. If that makes me a dinosaur in the gaming world then so be it.
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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 4:43:43 AM   
zakblood


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most of the younger generation want easy more simple games, maybe?

most i now see is going that way, playstation / xbox type etc.

more and more seem to be very easy to pick up and play and loads easier to finish no matter what type it is, rpg,fps etc.

seems most games get bigger in size, better looking with more video in them, loads of sounds / music and far less game play.

ok if your 12, not so good if your not

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 7:19:06 AM   
Zap


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When I saw Panzer Command Ostfront come out(as a replacement for SPWAW) I was disappointed. So many resources wasted when a reworking of SPWAW was the answer to Matrix's attempt to replace SPWAW. Didn't I see a vague reference to remake of SPWAW? Sometime in the future ... that is in the way beyond time. Sorry, for my skepticism but a release of this will probably be when i'm sitting in a chair at home unable to enjoy it for advanced old age

< Message edited by Zap -- 4/29/2014 3:52:46 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 7:41:23 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Sadly they did try a remake several years ago but never finished it called "Combat Leader" they had put about 5-7 years into it and then just dropped it. Reason why "unknown". Same happened to a remake of "Battles of Napoleon" and once again another game in the pipe that got crushed for some reason or other. At least we got Mark Walkers "Heroes of Stalingrad" that we also felt was vaporware and "World in Flames" although without an AI is totally unacceptable.

But, zakblood basically answered your question the young in mind an age could not handle our type of games and the money is in the young and the impatient and short attention span person. I say person because there are adults who think and play this way also. They'd rather be led by the nose than have to think of an answer. Just be thankful that games like Steel Panthers are forever games as long as you have an operating system that will run it. But, don't look for improvements to it for a long long time. I imagine Panzer Corp III will be out before another Steel Panthers game.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 9:52:40 AM   
Hexagon


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Panzer Korps is a PG clone... nothing new apart new graphics... is curious how now with powerfull PCs wargames have same or less details than old games... i dont find a title i can call Steel Panthers sucesesor apart the Win versions.

If i receive 1 euro for every title that fail to be a sucesor of SP i dont need work more

PD: i find interesting LnL i was close to buy it but i prefer wait to see what they do with future releases... new titles??? DLCs??? expansions??? for me this title and Flashpoint are fresh air in the niche

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 11:20:09 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Only thing about LnL is I wished it had random scenario or map genarators. I haven't been able to play a static type game for a long time now. See the "simpleton" age has caught up to me. Only I'd really like the complication of Command Ops just built into the LnL games.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 3:52:48 PM   
pzgndr

 

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There's still John Tiller's Campaign Series, recently updated to v2.00 with plans for continued development.

As for simple, I'd love to see a PC adaptation of the classic Avalon Hill Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader/Arab-Israeli Wars games. JTCS has some mods and those classic PB/PL scenarios available, but it's not the same. Too many additional bells and whistles. Yeah it's more realistic and everything, but also more complex than it needs to be for a WWII tactical game. IMHO, wargaming used to be more enjoyable when players could focus more on simply playing the game and making fundamental tactical decisions, rather than worrying about more and more micromanagement details. The "fun factor" is important too.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 4:03:26 PM   
stormbringer3

 

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Shrapnel Games has an excellent version of Steel Panthers which is still being updated with improvements and scenarios. I can highly recommend it to anyone who likes Steel Panthers.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 4:39:54 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

Shrapnel Games has an excellent version of Steel Panthers which is still being updated with improvements and scenarios. I can highly recommend it to anyone who likes Steel Panthers.

WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT

Otherwise, how come games are now easier to play? Once upon a time all it took to start the game was insert floppy disk into disk drive and run executable file. Some other computers it was even easier: floppy disk into disk drive (or memory module into appropriate slot) and power up the computer. No installation necessary. Do we see that easy games now? There is install, downloading updates etc. Yes yes, Java & Flash games playable on browser, thank Guru for those...

And what comes to easy-to-play games, that was attitude of many publishers in age of dinosaurs. Then two university students made Elite... And I'm quite convinced there are now more people playing equally and more demanding games now than back in the 1980's.

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 4/28/2014 5:40:48 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 6:43:27 PM   
Rising-Sun


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Noticed that too, some roleplaying game since back in the 90s are also going downhill and becoming more of hack-n-slash action games. Not very many good games worth buying, most new ones required the internet. For example if you ever played Diablo3, you will noticed its not really like Diablo Series and cant play it offline on single player.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 6:51:04 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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what the... there was a planned remake of Battles of Napoleon that was canned/shelved!!? nooo...redo SP but also BoN -these games have the brains already, just give them a new coat and interface! my gods BoN is a good game, one of the best really

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 7:41:55 PM   
Jevhaddah


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Most of the games I play now I get from Matrix or GoG.

IMHO most new games are dumbed down rubbish for Mummies little Angels who can't be told that they failed at anything.

Cheers

Jev

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 8:40:43 PM   
RoryAndersonWS


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“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
-Socrates ~400 BC



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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/28/2014 10:52:00 PM   
radic202


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
-Socrates ~400 BC





[image][URL=http://s568.photobucket.com/user/radic202/media/xlarge.jpg.html][/URL][/image]



[image][URL=http://s568.photobucket.com/user/radic202/media/image001-12.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 4:36:45 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

Most of the games I play now I get from Matrix or GoG.

IMHO most new games are dumbed down rubbish for Mummies little Angels who can't be told that they failed at anything.

Cheers

Jev


I'm surprised there's not a gold trophy at the end of the game win or lose mommy's lil angels get one with the engraving of it's not the winning or losing it's that you cried. Here's your trophy. lol

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 8:32:05 AM   
Hexagon


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If i dont remember bad there is a plan to redo Steel Panthers... or at least do a similar game but looks more a future plan, maybe next decade or century, all depends of situation


"Next up was Gary Grigsby and Joel Billings, another pair of people I was honored to have met. They presented War in the West and talked a little about their next steps. I have all of their games as well and look forward to this release as well as their next steps which include West 1940, West Mediterranean 41-43, War in Europe and a return to tactical World War 2, ala Steel Panthers. I must say I was very excited about that and hope they make the tactical game sooner rather than later."

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3377443

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 1:56:17 PM   
Max 86


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I agree with most everyone's opinion about the intelligence of today's utes but not sure I can see how that corresponds to the lack of tactical games. I feel it is more of a challenge for a game developer to make a tactical scale game and most do not want to attempt it for many reasons. I have to put some of this on game developers in general.

It is easier for a developer to create a generic 'division' type unit with attack strength, defense, movement etc. than it is to create a database that models every nation's small, medium and large arms, the range of each, penetration factors over range, sloping armor and its thickness for each AFV, etc. Also it is easier to make a game where units have to be adjacent to one another for combat than it is to work out LOS mechanics over a detailed tactical map. And the developers that do make such games create small sampling sizes for their games with limited theatres of operations, limited OOBs, etc., making you wish there was more to work with as was the case for Steel Panthers and the older Age of Rifles, et al.

The days of a mega game that contains many OOBs from different nations, easy modding to create any battle in the time period covered are gone forever I am afraid. If they re-did SP today it would only have the eastern front up to 1943, the rest would be a never ending stream of add ons that only continue as long as the developer stays in business.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 2:31:39 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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Max 86 is probably closer to the mark than any screed against millenials. Making a game such as Unity of Command is far easier than trying to create a 3D tactical simulation (and making it 2D makes it far more of a niche-within-a-niche game - even Close Combat is trying to keep up with the times).

Of course, going the route of Conflict of Heroes (or for a more mainstream example, XCOM Enemy Unknown) where the 3D is just pure presentation but all of the mechanics are actually just simple die rolls and abstracted rules can probably keep scope-of-work manageable for a small developer, but then you run into the problem of places such as this forum scoffing at such simplified mechanics as being only for casual babies.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 2:36:08 PM   
Zap


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here is the future plan of Gary Grisby:
The Future: War in the … and beyond
• War in the East 2.0 - a remake of War in the East using the War in the West engine and new map system (another building block foe the mega game).
• War in the West 1940 (France/Norway/Med)
• War in the West 1941-43 (Mediterranean)
• War in Europe - the largest game ever conceived!
• World at War: A World Divided – iPad
• Tactical WWII game ala Steel Panthers - Gary mentioned Steel Panthers was the game he most enjoyed creating in his career.

That list makes it pretty clear plans are for 5 to ten years in the future?

< Message edited by Zap -- 4/29/2014 3:57:12 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 3:39:07 PM   
Twotribes


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HPS still makes tactical games.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 4:14:55 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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NOTE: if you are all ate up with political correctness and dealing with reality is difficult for you then skip this post less your brain explode!

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

It seems that the grandaddy of tactical games, Steel Panthers (Matrix version, not the other one), is fading into the past, and there is no successor to it in the offing. Why is this? It looks as if "simpler" games such as Panzercorps are taking over, which disappoints me. Oh, well, I still play SPWAW (the Enhanced Version) and enjoy it very much. If that makes me a dinosaur in the gaming world then so be it.


When I 1st started playing PC wargames in 1979 only the well educated and those with money played (they were the only ones who could afford a computer and learn how to use it - my TRS-80 after all upgrades cost me around $2600 and that doesn't include software). Smart and could afford it described the PC game player back then. The average IQ of the typical PC game player in my estimation was probably around 130 or so. That's just a bit less than 3 standard deviations. What that means is in 1979 and probably up thru '87 or so is that people playing PC games back then were in the top .75% (that is 3/4 of a percent not seventy five percent for the mathematically challenged) of the population IQ wise.

PC/Console gaming has gone mainstream and the masses are the folks that developers create games for now. Not terribly well educated, console focused, hand eye coordination driven and graphics whores. Average IQ of the masses - by definition since the masses includes everyone - 100. The standard deviation for IQ is 12 points (last time I cared to look) which means that 2/3 of the population has an IQ between 88 (dummies) and 112 (slightly above average). NOTE: if one adjusts the current 100 to 1979 measure the guy with 100 IQ today would measure somewhere in the 90's by '79 standards. And yes Virginia, the IQ of the population as a whole is going down - think Idiocracy.

So the answer to your question is actually fairly simple. PC game players are, on average, dumber now than 34 years ago and developers have to take that into account when creating a game for the current market.

Wargames - especially those with a decent AI - none recently - are not easy to beat (especially so when playing against a human). The average Joe Sixpack isn't gonna spend $59 on a gaming product he or she can't beat.

Pandering to the masses! That's my story and I am sticking to it.


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 4:22:17 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

I agree with most everyone's opinion about the intelligence of today's utes but not sure I can see how that corresponds to the lack of tactical games. I feel it is more of a challenge for a game developer to make a tactical scale game and most do not want to attempt it for many reasons. I have to put some of this on game developers in general.

It is easier for a developer to create a generic 'division' type unit with attack strength, defense, movement etc. than it is to create a database that models every nation's small, medium and large arms, the range of each, penetration factors over range, sloping armor and its thickness for each AFV, etc. Also it is easier to make a game where units have to be adjacent to one another for combat than it is to work out LOS mechanics over a detailed tactical map. And the developers that do make such games create small sampling sizes for their games with limited theatres of operations, limited OOBs, etc., making you wish there was more to work with as was the case for Steel Panthers and the older Age of Rifles, et al.

The days of a mega game that contains many OOBs from different nations, easy modding to create any battle in the time period covered are gone forever I am afraid. If they re-did SP today it would only have the eastern front up to 1943, the rest would be a never ending stream of add ons that only continue as long as the developer stays in business.

Armored Brigade has 11 nations, is very easy to mod and is still free.

It is true that it's a developer-side problem, though.

Legends of Blitzkrieg offer some hope for a cutting-edge tactical game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevhaddah

Most of the games I play now I get from Matrix or GoG.

IMHO most new games are dumbed down rubbish for Mummies little Angels who can't be told that they failed at anything.

I think it's more a question of cinematization of many games. Online gaming is very popular so it can't be a question of losing.

Also, I noticed that even among intelligent people who are into challenging stuff, wargaming is still rare. They'd rather play DOTA or Company of Heroes or whatever rather than a realistic wargame :/ .


quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326

NOTE: if you are all ate up with political correctness and dealing with reality is difficult for you then skip this post less your brain explode!

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

It seems that the grandaddy of tactical games, Steel Panthers (Matrix version, not the other one), is fading into the past, and there is no successor to it in the offing. Why is this? It looks as if "simpler" games such as Panzercorps are taking over, which disappoints me. Oh, well, I still play SPWAW (the Enhanced Version) and enjoy it very much. If that makes me a dinosaur in the gaming world then so be it.


When I 1st started playing PC wargames in 1979 only the well educated and those with money played (they were the only ones who could afford a computer and learn how to use it - my TRS-80 after all upgrades cost me around $2600 and that doesn't include software). Smart and could afford it described the PC game player back then. The average IQ of the typical PC game player in my estimation was probably around 130 or so. That's just a bit less than 3 standard deviations. What that means is in 1979 and probably up thru '87 or so is that people playing PC games back then were in the top .75% (that is 3/4 of a percent not seventy five percent for the mathematically challenged) of the population IQ wise.

PC/Console gaming has gone mainstream and the masses are the folks that developers create games for now. Not terribly well educated, console focused, hand eye coordination driven and graphics whores. Average IQ of the masses - by definition since the masses includes everyone - 100. The standard deviation for IQ is 12 points (last time I cared to look) which means that 2/3 of the population has an IQ between 88 (dummies) and 112 (slightly above average). NOTE: if one adjusts the current 100 to 1979 measure the guy with 100 IQ today would measure somewhere in the 90's by '79 standards. And yes Virginia, the IQ of the population as a whole is going down - think Idiocracy.

So the answer to your question is actually fairly simple. PC game players are, on average, dumber now than 34 years ago and developers have to take that into account when creating a game for the current market.

Wargames - especially those with a decent AI - none recently - are not easy to beat (especially so when playing against a human). The average Joe Sixpack isn't gonna spend $59 on a gaming product he or she can't beat.

Pandering to the masses! That's my story and I am sticking to it.

This too. The thing is that there's still a lot of intelligent people out there that don't play wargames and probably will never play wargames.
I'd argue that wargames would be more enjoyable to less intelligent people due to the AI being a better match for them.

The main thing that wargames require is a strong interest in military history and tactics and most importantly in realism. Someone with IQ of 110 but interest in history still is more likely to be a wargamer than someone with IQ of 150 who wants to play some game with rules detached from reality.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/29/2014 6:16:38 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 4:25:23 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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Your socioeconomic analysis lacks an examination of the amount of disposable income an average American can have, the number of competing sources of entertainment relative to computer games, and the rising costs of an education insofar as the implication that a certain level of literacy particular in the field of math, science and history will trigger an interest in and be useful towards the playing of wargames.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 5:08:41 PM   
AbwehrX


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Close Combat will always be the ultimate tactical WWII-

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 5:18:25 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Your socioeconomic analysis lacks an examination of the amount of disposable income an average American can have, the number of competing sources of entertainment relative to computer games, and the rising costs of an education insofar as the implication that a certain level of literacy particular in the field of math, science and history will trigger an interest in and be useful towards the playing of wargames.

Wargames require early primary school level of education. The rest of education comes as a result of wargames not as a requirement for playing them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

Close Combat will always be the ultimate tactical WWII-


quote:

Close Combat will always be the ultimate tactical WWII-

Not really. It has very bad AI and it's mechanics are sub-par. Particularly lack of any attempt at simulation of command and control makes it a pathetic wargame.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/29/2014 6:20:46 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/29/2014 11:57:54 PM   
histgamer

 

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Its not WW2 but the Scourge of War team is working on a lot of enhancements to make the Scourge of War series even deeper than it is now. Definitely not a simple tactical game.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 6:52:54 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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There's your ultimate Tactical Wargame Scourge of War and Command Ops. Two games that will never leave my hard drive.

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 11:07:34 AM   
Hexagon


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As i say in other thread, CC problem is in the very poor AI and the 0 tactical AI... think in CC 2D + Flashpoint tactical AI... no more 3-4 soldier teams because use TRUE 10 soldiers squads made game goes crazy

I need say that for me wargames are 50% gaming 50% history, you know touch the things you read in books or use them to find a new interest, war is not only WWII

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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 11:59:57 AM   
wodin


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Can't wait for Mr Grigsby to get back to tactical and make a new monster tactical wargame.

You could do some really innovative mechanics at the tactical level instead of what we have at the moment. One day I hope someone will come along looking outside the box so to speak. I have a read an amazing design document by some one in the industry. If anything comes of it though is another thing. It probably would be my ultimate wargame.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/30/2014 1:03:16 PM >


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RE: What's Become of Tactical WWII Games? - 4/30/2014 12:12:51 PM   
wodin


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CC2 was mine for a long long time. Now for a realtime game Graviteam Tactics has knocked it off my No 1 spot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

Close Combat will always be the ultimate tactical WWII-




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