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protecting armour from air - 4/21/2014 9:23:40 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Anyone help with this? Whilst playing an HTTR scenario recently I had a DZ attacked by a detachment of three stugs. I called an airstrike on it and it took out all 3, left the surviving crews in a rout!! It left me impressed with what airstrikes can do to armour. I'm now playing Race for Bastogne (as Axis) and I have a number of flak assets that I wonder about the use of. I have some very high value armour units (the 559 Hvy AT Bn, for example). Most of the armour units have also a light flak asset and I'm wondering - does the presence of flak units diminish the effectiveness of airstrikes? Is it worth me attaching more flak units to high value armour units to protect them - I mean, will that work? I know I've seen messages saying airstrikes called off due to enemy flak (I think), but I'm wondering if that is actually in the code - that if I attach more flak assets to an armour unit then it deters the jabos? And if so, how close do the flak units need to be? Anyone (Dave, for example? know? Thanks.
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/21/2014 6:50:25 PM   
dazkaz15


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I have always assumed that the unit your are protecting with the Flak needs to be within the effective range of the Flack unit, anti personnel ring.
The green range ring.
I have no idea if this is correct mind

(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/21/2014 7:40:35 PM   
jimcarravall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Anyone help with this? Whilst playing an HTTR scenario recently I had a DZ attacked by a detachment of three stugs. I called an airstrike on it and it took out all 3, left the surviving crews in a rout!! It left me impressed with what airstrikes can do to armour. I'm now playing Race for Bastogne (as Axis) and I have a number of flak assets that I wonder about the use of. I have some very high value armour units (the 559 Hvy AT Bn, for example). Most of the armour units have also a light flak asset and I'm wondering - does the presence of flak units diminish the effectiveness of airstrikes? Is it worth me attaching more flak units to high value armour units to protect them - I mean, will that work? I know I've seen messages saying airstrikes called off due to enemy flak (I think), but I'm wondering if that is actually in the code - that if I attach more flak assets to an armour unit then it deters the jabos? And if so, how close do the flak units need to be? Anyone (Dave, for example? know? Thanks.

There is an anti-air capability that can be modeled into weapons and their accompanying ammunition which includes range, weight, and burst radius for anti-air ammunition, but I've found nothing in the game manual or scenario maker (where Air Strikes are allocated) which indicate how the weapons affect air strikes when available.

Miquel has said that the air strike is an abstraction in the game, and the manual description of the air strike effects discusses only weather / visibility as an issue which would alter the arrival of an air strike.

In addition, if you're using historical weather in race to Bastogne, there should be very minimal if any air opposition to the Axis moves. One reason Hitler chose the dead of winter for his late war western offensive was to neutralize the Allies' decisive air superiority in Western Europe.


_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/22/2014 12:25:00 AM   
navwarcol

 

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I have had numerous air strikes cancelled due to air defenses/FlAK. Not sure if this is what you mean, but try to launch some against units in the vicinity of air defense units, or units with their own anti air complement and you will see a fair amount of those air strikes abort.

(in reply to jimcarravall)
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/22/2014 12:41:58 AM   
Arjuna


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Within the strike event it will check for any flak units within their effective anti-air range of the impact point. These will then get a chance to abort the strike and a further chance to make it miss its mark. It's a complicated formula to determine the probability of an abort and the prob of a miss. Here are two example taken direct from the comments section of the code.

// Note that on average in WW2 flak caused 10% casualties and aborted another 15 to 20%.
// This is for strategic bombing. So for ground attack it may be different
// Let's assume that this holds true if there is a full strength company of Mdm Flak - ie 8 x 40mm Bofors
// A single bofor has a raw firepower of 1.41 - modified by effectiveness of say 0.75 = 1.05, say = 1
// A Bty = 8 x 1 = 8.
// Let's say then that a Bofors Bty would have a 10% prob of aborting the strike and a further 20% of
// making it miss its mark. For every point of firepower the abort prob = 0.10 / 8 = 0.0125 and
// the miss prob = 0.20 / 8 = 0.025.

// eg #1 we have a fighter bomber strike with a bullseye = 50 and a missFactor = 10
// we have an 88 Flak Bty with 6 guns plus a 37mm Bty with 9 guns and a lt Flak Bty with 9 20mm
// firepower: 88s = 6 * 2.3 = 13.8; 37s = 9 * 1.245 = 11.2; 20s = 9 * .825 = 7.435. Total = 32.435
// allowing for unit effectiveness mods = say 25
// missProb = 25 * .025 = 0.625
// then missOffset = 2 + ( 10 * 0.625 ) = 2 + 6.25 = 8.25
// and the missRange = 50 * 8.25 = 412

So it pays to have flak within eff range of the strike and the more the better.

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 4/22/2014 1:44:20 AM >


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(in reply to navwarcol)
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/22/2014 7:11:32 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Great. Thanks Daz and Jim. And thanks Dave - that clarifies it some - it does make a difference, and I'll assume that by 'effective range' you mean what Daz said, Dave - the green range ring.

It's true the weather was poor, Jim (and I am using historical, yes) - I just checked the 'weather forecast' in scenmaker and you're right - fog pattern all 6 days.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/22/2014 8:14:47 AM >

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 6
RE: protecting armour from air - 4/23/2014 1:13:25 AM   
Deathtreader


Posts: 1022
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From: Vancouver, Canada.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Great. Thanks Daz and Jim. And thanks Dave - that clarifies it some - it does make a difference, and I'll assume that by 'effective range' you mean what Daz said, Dave - the green range ring.

It's true the weather was poor, Jim (and I am using historical, yes) - I just checked the 'weather forecast' in scenmaker and you're right - fog pattern all 6 days.


On a side note relating to weather it might be helpful for planning etc. to get some form weather forecast in-game for CO2.

Rob.


_____________________________

So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)

(in reply to Phoenix100)
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/23/2014 2:51:02 AM   
ChrisMaiorana

 

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Good idea on the weather forecast and I love the Flashman quote in your sig!

(in reply to Deathtreader)
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RE: protecting armour from air - 4/24/2014 12:28:17 AM   
Deathtreader


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From: Vancouver, Canada.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapHillrat

Good idea on the weather forecast and I love the Flashman quote in your sig!



Thanks!

....and a big thank you for all the new scenarios!

Rob.

_____________________________

So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)

(in reply to ChrisMaiorana)
Post #: 9
RE: protecting armour from air - 4/26/2014 11:46:18 PM   
Apocal

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Within the strike event it will check for any flak units within their effective anti-air range of the impact point. These will then get a chance to abort the strike and a further chance to make it miss its mark.


How does one determine effective AA range in-game? Am I missing something obvious?

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 10
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