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Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification?

 
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Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/9/2014 9:46:44 PM   
kneecaps

 

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Hi Folks,
Just looking for some insight into how the sonobouys are working.

What determines if a sonobouy can make a classification (of any kind). Is it the platform that it's datalinked to, the bouy itself or a combination of the two?

Take the 'Type 17053 Passive Directional'.

It lists only 'Underwater Search' as an ability, does this mean it cannot classify?

Thanks
Pete
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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/10/2014 7:02:27 PM   
dcpollay


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I have a similar question....I am playing the Advanced ASW Excercise. My sonobuoys have not been able to classify any of they underwater contacts as either fish or subs. I know some of them are fish due to the message window showing my torps attacking Tuna School.

Given the shallow water, I'm not surprised that the passive buoys are useless. However, I would think that an active sonar contact would be able to distinguish between a school of fish and a metallic object such as a sub.


Are active bouys not capable of this? Or am I simply not maintaining the contact long enough to make a classification? Or is there some other answer?

_____________________________

"It's all according to how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand."

Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.

(in reply to kneecaps)
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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/10/2014 7:28:43 PM   
kneecaps

 

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Here is what I understand,

Active sets on platforms, subs, ships etc, can easily determine if the returns are from biological or metallic objects. The returns sound (and look) unmistakably different. The operator can see and hear the returns via headphones or the waterfall.

However I'm not certain if this holds true for older sonar sets or sonobouys.

I understand that modern bouys return lots of data back to the monitoring platform for analysis by the operator however I don't know what older bouys do in this respect.

I believe that many modern ACTIVE bouys return little more than a direction and return strength so active bouys may not be able to classify contacts.

However modern bouys most certainly provide the information to the monitoring platform to allow classification (within the usual constraints of sonar of course).

So really the question is about game mechanics, how do we interpret the capabilities listed for each sensor that a bouy has...and also how does this play into the capabilities of the monitoring platform?

Pete

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/13/2014 4:54:59 PM   
kneecaps

 

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Okay, been doing some experimenting in the editor...

It appears that active sonar in sim CANNOT distinguish between biologicals and subs in any situation at all. It cannot make any kind of classification, but depending on the model of sonar, can provide depth, course, speed, range etc...

Passive buoys having nothing more than the 'Underwater Search' ability are able to lead to classifications...however...even with the best buoys the classification can take a long time to happen unless the target is really loud (in the case of subs)...and then not always an exact classification beyond general type (SSN, SN etc).

For example the SSQ-904 Mini-Jezebel LOFAR #45 was unable to classify a Victor III cavitating at 30 knots above the layer from a distance of 700m no matter what I did....

However in contrast the Seawolf TB-29 array was able to make an EXACT classification in the same situation from 1 CZ away...

The US DIFAR SSQ-53F could also not make a classification beyond SSN even with the Victor III steaming past cavitating at 30 kts....




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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/13/2014 5:11:19 PM   
jdkbph


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The sonobuoys, as I understand it, are nothing but remote sensors/transmitters. They feed data back to the parent platform where a guy sitting in front of a console analyzes the returns on Broad band, Narrow band, waterfall and DEMON type displays and so forth.

So all of the analysis - TMA, classification, etc - is done by the parent platform, not independently by the sonobuoy. If the parent platform is capable, the sonobuoys simply facilitate that.

JD

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/13/2014 6:45:03 PM   
kneecaps

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdkbph

The sonobuoys, as I understand it, are nothing but remote sensors/transmitters. They feed data back to the parent platform where a guy sitting in front of a console analyzes the returns on Broad band, Narrow band, waterfall and DEMON type displays and so forth.

So all of the analysis - TMA, classification, etc - is done by the parent platform, not independently by the sonobuoy. If the parent platform is capable, the sonobuoys simply facilitate that.

JD


This is very true! So the question is...can the same buoy obtain a classification with a different platform...

My immediate thought was to deploy from a surface ship....however it seems that this isn't implemented!! I also wondered if a plaform like an OHP or Arleigh Burk could receive data from it's helos or bouys deployed from helos/aircraft....but no.




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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/14/2014 12:02:01 AM   
jdkbph


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Yeah, I'm guessing you'd have to enable the game otion and look at the data links. If there's no link between the sonobuoy and the ship, then it's probably not used by the ship at all.

To be honest, I'm not sure how this works in real life. I do know that if an SH60 drops a sonobouy, the operator on the SH60 receives and uses the data from that sonobuoy. I also know that the SH60 can share that data with the ship it came from. What I don't know is whether this data sharing is specifically initiated between two or more platforms or whether it is broadcast to all listeners in the area like the old JTIDS (as I understand that to work).

JD

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/14/2014 1:35:49 AM   
Casinn

 

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If they can't do it now, they will soon.

http://www.defensedaily.com/the-m-60r-and-mh-60s-naval-helicoptersmanufacturersikor/

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/14/2014 6:20:45 PM   
scouseern

 

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In my experience as an RN submariner, air launched sonar buoys can be very effective at detecting and prosecuting a submerged contact. A single buoy however will find it next to impossible to find a sub. they are used in groups of at least 3, each used to triangulate the position of the contact.

Each can also be used for MAD without interfering with active / passive capabilities.

EH 101 Merlin's are extremely effective in the MPH role, also the MH 60R Strikehawk. P-3 Orions are still the best all round MPA for sub hunting, IL 38 May also a capable unit.

Any sub specific questions you may have please feel free to drop me a message. if its not classified its no problem.

Scouse

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/20/2014 11:23:11 AM   
kneecaps

 

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Some observations:

1) I have never been able to obtain a classification (beyond general type of sub) with any airborne platform using it's sonobuoys. It appears that it is not possible regardless of the launching platform, even the P8 would not provide me with classifications. (even with a very loud sub right on top of numerous buoys). I also notice that the general type classification only seemed to happen when I made the sub cavitate. I think a modern platform like a SH-60 should be able to distinguish between a biological and a submarine.....??

So the question is, why not..there must be some feature of the platform listening to the buoys that determines what kind of classifications are possible.

2) Buoys dropped by aircraft cannot be used by surface vessels, I don't have a good reference if this is really possible though.

3) I've only been able to get classifications with the hull mounted or towed array sonars on surface vessels.

EDIT: I'll put this in the tech support thread, and see if the devs may be able to offer some info.

< Message edited by kneecaps -- 4/20/2014 12:23:49 PM >

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/20/2014 2:22:34 PM   
jdkbph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kneecaps

2) Buoys dropped by aircraft cannot be used by surface vessels, I don't have a good reference if this is really possible though.


Not directly, no... unless there's some new capability I'm not aware of. However, the launching platform can share data it collects from the sonobuoys with other platforms in the area.

eg., ref: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/sh-60f.htm

The SH-60F is also capable of deploying and monitoring sonobuoys which are launched from the sonobuoy tubes mounted in the cabin. A sonobuoy is an expendable device which transmits acoustic information to the helicopter. This information may be automatically relayed to the support vessel in the task force by a data link system.

And this explains a little bit more about the data distribution capabilities:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/an-sqq-89.htm

The AN/SQQ-89 is the ASW Combat System for all surface combatants and will be the technological foundation for the ASW combat system of the DD-21. The ANISQQ-89 combat system suite provides Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7), Spruance (DD-963), Ticonderoga (CG-47), and Arleigb Burke (DDG-51) warships with an integrated undersea warfare detection, clas-sification, display, and targeting capability. The system combines and processes all active sonar information, and processes and displays all SH-60B Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System (LAMPS) Mk III sensor data.

The AN/SQQ-89 USW Combat System is a fully integrated, real-time, distributed system that contains acoustic and environmental sensors, mission control, contact management, and weapon fire control subsystems. Legacy AN/SQQ-89 Combat System suites consist of the AN/SQS-53 hull sonar, AN/SQR-19 Towed-Array Sonar, AN/SQQ-28 LAMPS, AN/SQS-25 SIMAS, and ASW Control System (ASWCS) MK 116 systems. These legacy systems are linked via NTDS interfaces to form an integrated combat system. In order to engage and launch weapons against a subsurface threat, the AN/SQQ-89 has external interfaces to the MK 331 Torpedo Setting Panel (TSP), MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS), and the AEGIS Weapon System (AWS)
.

JD

< Message edited by jdkbph -- 4/20/2014 3:29:51 PM >

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/20/2014 4:25:31 PM   
mcp5500


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Thanks that was a great explanation.

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/20/2014 7:40:24 PM   
kneecaps

 

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Thanks for the info. So this is how it appears to work.

The SH-60 can transmit data IT collects to a surface platform.

The AN/SQQ-28(V) Sonar Signal Processing Set LAMPS III Shipboard Electronics is part of the AN/SQQ-89 ASW Combat System.

This is the important bit "provides shipboard sonobuoy processor support for the Light Airborne Multipurpose System (LAMPS MK III) to detect submarines and provide accurate classification and targeting data."

The question is...does this happen in the game? I will try this with a platform like an Arleigh Burke that has the towed array removed and put it at some distance away from the target. See if it classifies a contact based on information from the SH-60.


EDIT: I've been able to classify a few subs with just an SH-60 but it takes quite a long time...


< Message edited by kneecaps -- 4/20/2014 10:33:24 PM >

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 2:21:04 AM   
orca

 

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If this is possible wouldn't it be possible to have an asw sonobuoy equipped uav?

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 3:29:07 AM   
cwemyss

 

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http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2013/12/submarine-drone-launch.html

Launched from a sub....

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 6:48:40 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Hey Chad,

Watch out for the next public build

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 12:57:58 PM   
jdkbph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orca

If this is possible wouldn't it be possible to have an asw sonobuoy equipped uav?



I'm not sure there would be much point to it. It's the "receiver/processor" platform (eg, a P3 or SH60) that's data linked to the other platforms in the vicinity... not the sonobuoy itself. So you'd still need a manned platform in the immediate area... preferably something airborne so as not to expose itself to a potential torpedo attack... to process the data received from the sonobuoy.

Also, even if you might envision a "repeater" type scenario, where the raw data from the sonobuoy is simply relayed some distance to the "receiver/processor", I'd think you'd need a pretty big UAV to carry enough sonobuoys to be effective. But to be honest I really don't know about this... I'm just guessing. It's been almost 15 years since I last climbed into a Seahawk.

JD

< Message edited by jdkbph -- 4/22/2014 2:10:15 PM >

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 4:45:55 PM   
kaburke61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hey Chad,

Watch out for the next public build


Is that going to be soon? The NO SOUND at all problem is kinda painful.....

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/22/2014 5:34:10 PM   
Dimitris

 

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We are preparing it as fast as possible, while also trying very hard to avoid problems like that one popping up.

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RE: Sonobouy Capabillities? Classification? - 4/23/2014 3:07:58 AM   
cwemyss

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Hey Chad,

Watch out for the next public build


I always do.... I don't always get to play it right away, but I'm always looking forward to whatever you guys incorporate next.

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