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Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 5:20:38 AM   
Auchinleck

 

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I started my first Solitaire game with all optional rules to attempt to dive right in to learn the game by playing. I feel as though I learned alot. I only got as far as the spring of 1941, when I decided to start over, because the Oil Optional Rule was killing my ability to come even close to being able to do anything even remotely historical with the Axis powers. There was never nearly enough oil to reorganize enough units after each 2 month turn to make the game interesting for the Axis. I personally think the handicap of having one's forces become disorganized, or out of supply, during the pulses of the turn, hamstrings one's forces enough, so that the least one has to look forward to, is having one's forces ALL organized again by the next 2 month turn. It's giving my Axis players more of a chance to give the game a little more balance. Considering one can manipulate somewhat of a stalemate anyway, since one is playing one's self. Just my opinion for what I have experienced so far.
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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 5:49:42 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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I mean, oil is generally pro-allied, but unless you're sending out the entire Kriegsmarine and Regia Maria out every turn, you should have enough to keep your forces re-organized at the end of the turn.

But if you're running dry, work that into your plans: Build synth plants, go after the middle-east or even try a 42 barb. With the Japanese, make sure you secure the NEI the second you go to war with your real enemies, and be in a position to strike at Rangoon too, that's 5 oil between them.

One thing you might want to try is to cut out light cruisers, while each individual cruiser has a tiny drain on the oil stocks, you do get a ton of them, and they do add up. Since, as I understand it, CX have yet to be implemented, they also have all sorts of ugly balance implications on the battle of the Atlantic anyway, and I'd honestly recommend dropping it on that basis alone, but it should help you save fuel.

(in reply to Auchinleck)
Post #: 2
RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 7:07:57 AM   
paulderynck


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If you play with the oil option - which is very popular because of the historical record - then you must always be planning at least one turn ahead with the Axis. You must be willing to save oil ahead of time. Especially when the production multiplier is low. It must be considered in light of the overall Axis strategy as stated in the foregoing post.

Actually, it's normally toughest on Japan and it is why the NEI and the US entry driving toward the Oil Embargo are so important.

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 9:15:57 AM   
Centuur


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Also, it's right to play with oil if you look at things historically. When the Germans attacked Poland, they thought the French and the British would react the same way they did when the Germans occupied Prague...

At that point, the Germans realized that they didn't have enough oil to commence the war immediately. That was one of the reasons for the phoney war. Germany needed to stockpile oil...

Apart from that, World in Flames simulates quite well the problem of what you can do, due to oil shortages. WiF isn't a game where a general can move all it's units without consequences, especially when they are oil dependent. It's a trade-off. Put the oil into production, or save it for future use. And: is it usefull to build oil dependent units or should I build units which aren't oil dependent. As always a real challenge to find the right mix. Why build units you can't use because you don't have enough oil available? This problem is particularly felt by the Italians in early war. There's never enough oil available to get the entire Italian fleet again and again out into the sea...

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 10:01:27 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Also, it's right to play with oil if you look at things historically. When the Germans attacked Poland, they thought the French and the British would react the same way they did when the Germans occupied Prague...

At that point, the Germans realized that they didn't have enough oil to commence the war immediately. That was one of the reasons for the phoney war. Germany needed to stockpile oil...

Apart from that, World in Flames simulates quite well the problem of what you can do, due to oil shortages. WiF isn't a game where a general can move all it's units without consequences, especially when they are oil dependent. It's a trade-off. Put the oil into production, or save it for future use. And: is it usefull to build oil dependent units or should I build units which aren't oil dependent. As always a real challenge to find the right mix. Why build units you can't use because you don't have enough oil available? This problem is particularly felt by the Italians in early war. There's never enough oil available to get the entire Italian fleet again and again out into the sea...
warspite1

I agree with you on the game points - when it is working, playing this game with oil has to be the way to go to get that historical feel.

I disagree on the history though

Hitler knew how the French and British would react following the guarantee to Poland on the 25th August - this caused Hitler to delay until the 1st September, but by then he knew what was coming.

The Phoney War was caused mostly by bad weather halting the attack on France that was supposed to happen that autumn - not the stockpiling of oil.


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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/6/2014 10:50:31 AM   
csiemers

 

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I'm new at this game too, and I've tried using the Oil rules. However, I found that I was spending a lot of my time worrying about the Oil aspect of the game and not completely enjoying it. The latest scenario I'm playing is without the Oil rules and I'm finding I'm enjoying the game much more as I'm not constantly thinking about oil in the back of my mind.
I will probably go back to trying the oil rules, but I think for me I'm still learning the capabilities of the units so that's where I want my focus. Someday I do intend to go back to trying the Oil rules, but just not right now.


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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/7/2014 3:12:24 AM   
brian brian

 

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It is historical for the Italian Navy to barely be able to leave port due to oil shortages, that is pretty well known. The IJN had to eventually start basing a lot of their ships right in Borneo where their light crude came from as well.

Once upon a time I heard an expert on Barbarossa say that the Germans could never have reached their positions of early December, 1941, if they hadn't captured large stocks of fuel from the Russians, who weren't able to destroy them on time. That was retired Colonel David Glantz, speaking at WiFCon. I think perhaps the razor thin margin the Germans operated on most of the time, logistically, isn't all that well known. Gamers know the battles and the results, but only the Quartermasters knew the real deal.

In short, plenty of Axis units spent whole turns of the real war in a disorganized state, and I'm sure the Axis generals didn't enjoy that either.


HINT: use oil and save oil for your existing units. Don't send it to the Minister of Economics to build new units.

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/7/2014 3:33:24 AM   
Klydon


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Have to agree with most of what has been mentioned.

The oil situation for the Euro Axis really had a heavy effect on their naval capabilities. The Italian fleet could only really do anything if the Germans gave them the oil to do it with and the Kriegsmarine had a lot of issues due to lack of oil as well, so the ships sat in port a lot with brief operations.

The oil rules also will make themselves felt on construction of units as well. The Germans are less likely to go with oil dependent units like armor, air, and naval units with the check the oil system puts on them. The Italians are even more under pressure for this issue.

Japan is in its own special world of hurt for oil.

The Allies are not without issues when it comes to oil. The French navy won't be doing much either and the French player must be very careful early in the game over oil use. Their oil line is very vulnerable and they pretty much depend on the CW trading them oil to keep them going. The Chinese aspirations of a mechanized force along with a large air force will often die due to a lack of oil.

The oil rules add a big layer of planning and logistics to the game. The CW must now plan carefully to get as much oil to the Chinese as possible before the line gets shut down. Same for getting oil to the French. The Axis powers will be micromanaging oil usage all game long and it will feel like they never really have enough to be comfortable with unless they can get to some places they were never historically able to get to.

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/7/2014 4:37:30 PM   
WarHunter


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Until a game can be played without having to check the convoy line, where resources are going and which resources are being traded every single turn. The oil option is not an option.

Even if the game was working flawlessly, i would still be cautious to add it to every game being played. If only because there are times playing the game should not be a job and just fun. Oil can be historical and a fun killer. Especially after 1943.

Did i mention when learning how to pick the oil being used is a pain without an undo button. ya that right there.



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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/7/2014 5:52:18 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

It is historical for the Italian Navy to barely be able to leave port due to oil shortages, that is pretty well known. The IJN had to eventually start basing a lot of their ships right in Borneo where their light crude came from as well.

Once upon a time I heard an expert on Barbarossa say that the Germans could never have reached their positions of early December, 1941, if they hadn't captured large stocks of fuel from the Russians, who weren't able to destroy them on time. That was retired Colonel David Glantz, speaking at WiFCon. I think perhaps the razor thin margin the Germans operated on most of the time, logistically, isn't all that well known. Gamers know the battles and the results, but only the Quartermasters knew the real deal.

In short, plenty of Axis units spent whole turns of the real war in a disorganized state, and I'm sure the Axis generals didn't enjoy that either.


HINT: use oil and save oil for your existing units. Don't send it to the Minister of Economics to build new units.
warspite1

Sorry this has been said before and its just not true. The Italian navy had sufficient oil for the first year or so (until around late 1941/early 1942 if I remember correctly) to send the whole fleet out - time and time again (Calabria, Spartivento, Matapan, Sirte etc etc). The problem came after that when the BB were largely holed up for lack of fuel.

When I played the Italians in the one game I have tried with oil, I could not replicate history - although this probably had something to do with the fact the oil rules were not working..and I didn't know what the hell I was doing


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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/9/2014 11:51:56 PM   
Twisted1


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Fuel Oil usage of the Axis during World War II

The Italian Navy in World War II by Marc' Antonio Bragadin (1980)

In June 1940, the Navy only had a supply of about 1,800,000 tons of fuel oil. Estimate usage was 200,000 tons per month. (p. 5)

First quarter of 1943, 24,000 tons of fuel oil received per month. (p. 5)

1,000,000 of fuel oil had been used up to February 1941, in nine months of conflict. In Spring 1941, the Navy had to make due with only 100,000 tons of fuel oil a month. By the end of the summer, Germany had only given the Italian Navy 103,000 tons of fuel oil for that quarter, and all of the reserves had been used up. (p. 82)

Italian Navy received only 38,810 tons of fuel oil during the second quarter. Consumption of the first quarter of 1941 was 348,230 tons. Second quarter was 279,327. Third quarter was 266,865. Only 64,703 tons were received in the summer quarter of 1941. Italy had received only 201,000 tons of fuel oil by the end of October 1941, for the year. In the fourth quarter, Italy only received 150,361 tons of fuel oil. In the first quarter of 1942, they only received 126,634 tons of fuel oil. Italy used 180,371 tons of fuel oil in the first quarter of 1942. In May, only 45,000 tons of fuel oil was delivered. Second quarter of 1942, 158,764 tons of fuel oil was delivered. Conveys to North Africa used about 175,000 tons of fuel oil every quarter. In the second quarter of 1943, the navy got 195,171 tons of fuel oil. (p. 188-194)

The Italian Navy in World War II by James J. Sadkovich (1994)

By June 1942, the RMI was starved for fuel oil, after spending 15,000 tons on interdicting a British Convoy to Malta. The navy needed 70,000 tons for C.3. (p. 79)


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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/10/2014 4:20:05 AM   
warspite1


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Exactly. But playing with oil as the Italian player I was starved of oil the first time I put the fleet to sea. As I say, I suspect if the lending of resources was working, I could have got the Germans to assist. I think it was a MWIF problem rather than a WIF problem.

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/12/2014 5:52:07 PM   
Orm


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During the first couple of turns of the game Italy can save their oil and then they have enough to operate their entire navy. Italy's early oil shortage often depends on the fact that Italy enters the war earlier than historically and that they are more active.

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/12/2014 6:16:09 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

During the first couple of turns of the game Italy can save their oil and then they have enough to operate their entire navy. Italy's early oil shortage often depends on the fact that Italy enters the war earlier than historically and that they are more active.
warspite1

Yeah so either I was playing something wrong or the game wasn't saving the oil - I cannot recall which.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/12/2014 6:27:01 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

During the first couple of turns of the game Italy can save their oil and then they have enough to operate their entire navy. Italy's early oil shortage often depends on the fact that Italy enters the war earlier than historically and that they are more active.
warspite1

Yeah so either I was playing something wrong or the game wasn't saving the oil - I cannot recall which.

Game wasn't saving the oil.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/12/2014 7:35:57 PM   
alexvand


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I just can't handle the added logistical planning the oil rule requires. I have a hard enough time making sure I have transports in the right places for units to move and getting the right units built to match my battle plans.

I'm already a poor Italian and Japanese player. This would make it impossible for me to succeed with these powers at all.

Perhaps in time, but I'm hoping that when netplay is operational I'll be able to find a player or two who wants to play without the oil rules.

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RE: Oil Optional Rule - 4/12/2014 7:43:46 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

I just can't handle the added logistical planning the oil rule requires. I have a hard enough time making sure I have transports in the right places for units to move and getting the right units built to match my battle plans.

I'm already a poor Italian and Japanese player. This would make it impossible for me to succeed with these powers at all.

Perhaps in time, but I'm hoping that when netplay is operational I'll be able to find a player or two who wants to play without the oil rules.
warspite1

I would think that until the resource planning and convoy rules are sorted you will find more trouble finding someone who wants to use oil than not.

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